Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

[jmdirt]

The EU has exported about 35 million vaccine doses so far, including to the UK and the US (around 10 million to the UK in total so far). Return flow, I believe, has been zero. EU officials should've studied game theory more.

That is one of my points, EU should have played it differently. How many doses did they export to the USA?

EDIT: I will concede that since the USA has enough P, M, J&J on order to vax the country, they could keep the 10 mil AZ doses, but share some of the 30 mil as they come online (Koronin might be right, USAers might not want AZ). But as we can see by this exchange, sharing can leave you short.

 

[Koronin]

That is one of my points, EU should have played it differently. How many doses did they export to the USA?

EDIT: I will concede that since the USA has enough P, M, J&J on order to vax the country, they could keep the 10 mil AZ doses, but share some of the 30 mil as they come online (Koronin might be right, USAers might not want AZ). But as we can see by this exchange, sharing can leave you short.

Remember the administration managed to get a deal between J&J and Merck for Merck to start producing J&J's vaccine. (Merck stopped development of their own vaccine because it wasn't showing to be effective.) So we'll have a good bit more of J&J's vaccine coming into the pipeline soon as Merck has a larger manufacturing capability. They are going to use their plant in Durham, NC for manufacturing one of the components, and their plant in Philly for mixing and bottling.

Merck plant in Montgomery County will help produce J&J’s COVID-19 vaccine

Merck's West Point facility may add employees to help expand production.

www.inquirer.com

 

[Jagartrott]

That is one of my points, EU should have played it differently. How many doses did they export to the USA?

If every country 'played it' like the US, many countries (e.g. Canada, Japan) would have no vaccine at all. Is that the way the world is getting out of this mess? Moreover, this leaves a gap for countries like Russia and China to jump in, buying influence and goodwill in other countries.

From 3 days ago:
"The main export destinations <of vaccines from the EU> include the United Kingdom (with approximately 9.1 million doses), Canada (3.9 million), Mexico (3.1 million), Japan (2.7 million), Saudi Arabia (1.4 million), Hong Kong (1.3 million), Singapore (1 million), United States (1 million), Chile (0.9 million) and Malaysia (0.8 million)."

 

[Unchained]

I think that the discussions on import and export are not exactly right. The EU or the U.S.have to have made legal arrangements,or nationalize something,vaccines in this discussion,for instance and declare the materials are to be used in a war effort. The U.S.has done this in our short history for boots,steel,aluminum and other things as part of a military campaign. The public turns in their personal excess and domestic production is entirely dedicated to the military. Biden has directed companies,using government money to tool up,or dedicate their manufacturing towards an American objective using the Defense Production Act.
I think that European and American vaccine makers are all trying to meet obligations that contracted for before,during and after the start of the declared pandemic. It was said before that success or failure,the U.S. government dumped mountains of money on vaccine development in Operation Warp Speed..companies around the world had government assuming lots of financial responsibility and risk to develop vaccines it what seemed like overnight. Pfizer didn't take any Warp money,made it over the finish line first..Merck and a few others took the cash and had poor results or are still working on getting a drug to trials.
Under the last administration I can maybe imagine were drugs set to be exported were suddenly denied and said to be prioritized for domestic use first,but it would look like not many are taking that approach.
US not even at @15% immunization,China and Russia certainly not in Covid over mode,both exporting vaccines. And European vaccine makers,no matter who runs the companies sending out product to other non EU destinations.
I asked Google, who got Operation Warp Speed funding? Omg! The answers. And a semi surprise Germany gave $445 million to Pfizer,before Warp program was initiated. But if you read about it billions of dollars were given out..And it looks like there was a redirection of $@10 billion done in semi secret..

 

[Unchained]

If every country 'played it' like the US, many countries (e.g. Canada, Japan) would have no vaccine at all. Is that the way the world is getting out of this mess? Moreover, this leaves a gap for countries like Russia and China to jump in, buying influence and goodwill in other countries.

From 3 days ago:
"The main export destinations include the United Kingdom (with approximately 9.1 million doses), Canada (3.9 million), Mexico (3.1 million), Japan (2.7 million), Saudi Arabia (1.4 million), Hong Kong (1.3 million), Singapore (1 million), United States (1 million), Chile (0.9 million) and Malaysia (0.8 million)."

I agree..I think that vaccines are a tiny thimble size amount of the money being spent for influence pedaling.
The numbers from Canada and Mexico..who is exporting vaccines there? I know Mexico got Russian drugs and has agreed to get Chinese vaccines.But I don't know the origin of Canada's supply

 

[yaco]

The arrival of the AZ vaccine in HK has been delayed from late February to April.

 

[dusty red roads]

Has HK been vaccinating at all yet?

 

[jmdirt]

If every country 'played it' like the US, many countries (e.g. Canada, Japan) would have no vaccine at all. Is that the way the world is getting out of this mess? Moreover, this leaves a gap for countries like Russia and China to jump in, buying influence and goodwill in other countries.

From 3 days ago:
"The main export destinations <of vaccines from the EU> include the United Kingdom (with approximately 9.1 million doses), Canada (3.9 million), Mexico (3.1 million), Japan (2.7 million), Saudi Arabia (1.4 million), Hong Kong (1.3 million), Singapore (1 million), United States (1 million), Chile (0.9 million) and Malaysia (0.8 million)."

You're moving away from the original point so I'll let this dead horse die.

As for your anger at Joe/USA, you exported 1 million doses and want 30 million in return?

How much has your country or the entire EU committed to COVAX? Was it $2 bn up front with another $2 bn to follow? This is part of how the world is getting out of this mess.

If you want to play the "the USA is a bully" card, at least a look at the rest of the deck.

 

[Jagartrott]

Erm, this is exactly my original point: the <insert country name> first approach is logical, but not OK if it's being done in a way where even stocks of vaccines not authorized for local use are being held 'just in case'. The EU contract stipulates the US plant as a back-up option in case of supply problems. Well, if delivering only 10 out of a promised 100 million doses isn't a supply problem, then nothing is. Yet the US is blocking exports. A few million doses would already be enough as a sign of goodwill. This is not rocket science.

As for Covax, EU countries have pledged a combined total of nearly 3 billion $.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

I get finally a feeling that normality is coming with vaccines after read this article
https://www.timesofisrael.com/resta...raelis-flock-back-after-year-of-restrictions/

It is strange that I have such strong emotions in me after seeing crowded bar It brought me some great vacation memories of crowded bars in Spain and some Budapest alley.

Anyway as I stated earlier my parents were vaccinated with AZ this thursday. My dad had no side effects except little sore arm and my mom had strong headeache thursday night and she felt weak that evening. Nothing serious.

Glad you were able to provide that for your (I'm presuming elderly) parents - my elderly parents just got their 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine this morning, I'm ready for just about any possible side effects.

 

[Keram]

Glad you were able to provide that for your (I'm presuming elderly) parents - my elderly parents just got their 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine this morning, I'm ready for just about any possible side effects.

Both in early sixties.

 

[movingtarget]

Third Covid wave sweeps across EU and forces new restrictions

New variants blamed as Italy, France, Germany and Poland see infection rates surge

www.theguardian.com

 

[Oldermanish]

There is a much larger group of people in the US who want nothing to do with the A.Z. vaccine than who are hesitant about vaccines or won't take any of them. There are a lot who will take the other three, but won't take A.Z. Now there is group that also only is willing to take the J&J one as well. People here are seeing the reports of European countries halting use of it due to current investigations over blood clots. Currently Europe has enough of an issue with people refusing to take the A.Z. vaccine and that will be a much bigger issue in the US.

I don't know of anyone that's seen the AZ vaccine, let alone given any choices in our part of the US. We're not "sitting" on any here as any allocation that isn't claimed is immediately utilized on the most available group to be efficient. Some get lucky.

 

[Oldermanish]

Both in early sixties.

That's my profile and, aside from a slight headache and an excuse not to do a planned hard indoor ride it seems OK. Second dose is supposed to be more of an impact but my friend has had both with no issues at all. He's also a hypochondriac and an agoraphobe so the least likely to get sick from anything.

 

[Koronin]

I don't know of anyone that's seen the AZ vaccine, let alone given any choices in our part of the US. We're not "sitting" on any here as any allocation that isn't claimed is immediately utilized on the most available group to be efficient. Some get lucky.

It's currently sitting in a warehouse waiting for FDA to give it a EUA. By the way, it's fairly easy to for anyone in the US to refuse a vaccine even after they sign up for it if they find out it's one they don't want. When I signed up to get my first dose of a vaccine I knew which one it was before even signing up. It appears that's way many sites in this area are doing it, you know which one it is before signing up. However, the 3 currently available ones here aren't really an issue. A.Z. will be an issue. It was an issue in Europe before the blood clots.

Ireland is the latest country to halt usage of the A.Z. vaccine.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ireland-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-rollout-040843047.html

 

[djpbaltimore]

Vaccine hesitancy in Europe seems to be worse than the USA. The question is how much that has to do with the AZ vaccine specifically, or just a general sense of a 'rushed' approval in the vaccine development process sacrificing 'safety'. I don't think vaccine donations from Russia or China will be met with high approval. I also tend to doubt whether those countries have much of a stockpile themselves. Their vaccines are not easier to make at scale, I would tend to think the China one is the hardest to mass produce.

I don't know of anyone that's seen the AZ vaccine, let alone given any choices in our part of the US. We're not "sitting" on any here as any allocation that isn't claimed is immediately utilized on the most available group to be efficient. Some get lucky.

I would be curious to see how much these vaccine news bits funnel down to the public. Do many actually know the differences between the various vaccines? People who are keyed into the story will, but is that common knowledge? I would bet not. I also did not get a choice, but the informed consent forms mentioned that both mRNA vaccines were being administered. It just depended on the day you went to find out which one they were giving out.

 

[dusty red roads]

A new COVID-19 side effect? Some patients are developing sudden onset diabetes

Among all the manifestations and complications of COVID-19, yet another puzzling question is emerging — is the virus triggering cases of diabetes?

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[jmdirt]

Vaccine hesitancy in Europe seems to be worse than the USA. The question is how much that has to do with the AZ vaccine specifically, or just a general sense of a 'rushed' approval in the vaccine development process sacrificing 'safety'. I don't think vaccine donations from Russia or China will be met with high approval. I also tend to doubt whether those countries have much of a stockpile themselves. Their vaccines are not easier to make at scale, I would tend to think the China one is the hardest to mass produce.

I would be curious to see how much these vaccine news bits funnel down to the public. Do many actually know the differences between the various vaccines? People who are keyed into the story will, but is that common knowledge? I would bet not. I also did not get a choice, but the informed consent forms mentioned that both mRNA vaccines were being administered. It just depended on the day you went to find out which one they were giving out.

I'm pretty sure that I shared it on here, but I listened to an interview with a doc who explained why most vaccines and other treatments usually take years, and why COVID vax did not. I'll see if I can track it down again, but he described developing a treatment that took years because he and his team would work on it until they ran out of money, work on something else while they waited, get more money and start working on it again, wait for approval, work on trials, wait for money, wait for approval, work on next trial, wait for money, wait for approval, wait for money, work on final trial, wait for final approval. COVID vax research did not have all of those wait times, plus it didn't start from zero. So yes it was 'rushed' but most of that was eliminating the wait time, not eliminating the steps to ensure safety.

 

[djpbaltimore]

I'm pretty sure that I shared it on here, but I listened to an interview with a doc who explained why most vaccines and other treatments usually take years, and why COVID vax did not. I'll see if I can track it down again, but he described developing a treatment that took years because he and his team would work on it until they ran out of money, work on something else while they waited, get more money and start working on it again, wait for approval, work on trials, wait for money, wait for approval, work on next trial, wait for money, wait for approval, wait for money, work on final trial, wait for final approval. COVID vax research did not have all of those wait times, plus it didn't start from zero. So yes it was 'rushed' but most of that was eliminating the wait time, not eliminating the steps to ensure safety.

Agree 100%. I did not mean to suggest that the process was rushed, just questioning whether many people incorrectly feel that it is rushed because they have no basic understanding of the process.

Alex Berenson finally got a reprimand from twitter for suggesting that mRNA vaccines are gene therapy that involve antifreeze. Of course, the tweet is still up but has a misleading info warning, so not much of a reprimand. That is why it can be easy for pseudoscience to propagate. People listen to the spy novelist with 250k followers and a platform on cable news instead of doctors or scientists. And countries pausing vaccination plays into that game because the pause itself becomes more evidence of a 'reckless approval process' even if the pause was designed to assuage broad safety concerns. The more I read about the AZ vaccine and clotting issues, the less I feel that it was worth pausing vaccination.

 

[Oldermanish]

Erm, this is exactly my original point: the <insert country name> first approach is logical, but not OK if it's being done in a way where even stocks of vaccines not authorized for local use are being held 'just in case'. The EU contract stipulates the US plant as a back-up option in case of supply problems. Well, if delivering only 10 out of a promised 100 million doses isn't a supply problem, then nothing is. Yet the US is blocking exports. A few million doses would already be enough as a sign of goodwill. This is not rocket science.

As for Covax, EU countries have pledged a combined total of nearly 3 billion $.

Looks like Germany has a hold on AZ, too.

 

[Keram]

Looks like Germany has a hold on AZ, too.

Safety first obviously but this domino effect makes me both sad and angry. What about people after first dose?

 

[jmdirt]

Agree 100%. I did not mean to suggest that the process was rushed, just questioning whether many people incorrectly feel that it is rushed because they have no basic understanding of the process.

Alex Berenson finally got a reprimand from twitter for suggesting that mRNA vaccines are gene therapy that involve antifreeze. Of course, the tweet is still up but has a misleading info warning, so not much of a reprimand. That is why it can be easy for pseudoscience to propagate. People listen to the spy novelist with 250k followers and a platform on cable news instead of doctors or scientists. And countries pausing vaccination plays into that game because the pause itself becomes more evidence of a 'reckless approval process' even if the pause was designed to assuage broad safety concerns. The more I read about the AZ vaccine and clotting issues, the less I feel that it was worth pausing vaccination.

I know that you understand, I was just agreeing that most people who feel that it was rushed really have no idea what the process is and/or was (nor what they were in the past).

Its always crazy to me that 1,000 experts can generally agree on something, but toss in one wacko and bingo, sub 80s run with that one.

I don't understand the "pause is proof of being unsafe" thinking because I see the pause as them being cautions, not reckless.

 

[yaco]

Has HK been vaccinating at all yet?

Have vaccinated about 222,000. Unfortunately, there have been 6 deaths, though the health authorities have determined no cause or effect relationship - As a safeguard, people who suffer from diabetes have been advised to refrain from being vaccinated at this stage Their are two currently two vaccines in use Sinovac the Chinese one and Pfizer which is manufactured in China - Astra Zeneca will come on line in April - There is a resistance to being vaccinated in HK with the medical profession adopting a cautious approach, which I believe this will lessen in the next few months - I a actually booked to have my first vaccination tomorrow.

 

[djpbaltimore]

I know that you understand, I was just agreeing that most people who feel that it was rushed really have no idea what the process is and/or was (nor what they were in the past).

Its always crazy to me that 1,000 experts can generally agree on something, but toss in one wacko and bingo, sub 80s run with that one.

I don't understand the "pause is proof of being unsafe" thinking because I see the pause as them being cautions, not reckless.

The way they frame it is not that there is a pause, but rather that countries like Germany have 'banned' its use. These things don't have to be accurate to be effective. The best misinformation is cloaked in a veneer of truth. When the preservative thimerosal was removed from vaccines out of an abundance of caution due to the widespread anti-vax claim that it was causing autism, the response from the anti-vaxxers was, "we were right, they removed it because it was dangerous." No study ever supported a role for thimerosal in autism, but bad faith merchants can spin any measures to fit their arguments. And then they seamlessly moved the goalposts to suggest that the 'extreme' # of vaccines given to children was causing autism. Almost no way to even test a hypothesis like that. Whatever happens, it will be even harder to get people to take the AZ vaccine in those EU countries once they resume the shots. And it will boost hesitancy even more in the countries without a pause. It really is a mess.

And there are a lot of people running with these kinds of stories in the grift media who have huge contributions from herbal therapies and homeopathy merchants. So, to them the vaccines are a competitor. 'Health' is taking their miracle pills that doctors are afraid to tell people about because they work so well they would be put out of business. /s

 

[jmdirt]

The way they frame it is not that there is a pause, but rather that countries like Germany have 'banned' its use. These things don't have to be accurate to be effective. The best misinformation is cloaked in a veneer of truth. When the preservative thimerosal was removed from vaccines out of an abundance of caution due to the widespread anti-vax claim that it was causing autism, the response from the anti-vaxxers was, "we were right, they removed it because it was dangerous." No study ever supported a role for thimerosal in autism, but bad faith merchants can spin any measures to fit their arguments. And then they seamlessly moved the goalposts to suggest that the 'extreme' # of vaccines given to children was causing autism. Almost no way to even test a hypothesis like that. Whatever happens, it will be even harder to get people to take the AZ vaccine in those EU countries once they resume the shots. And it will boost hesitancy even more in the countries without a pause. It really is a mess.

And there are a lot of people running with these kinds of stories in the grift media who have huge contributions from herbal therapies and homeopathy merchants. So, to them the vaccines are a competitor. 'Health' is taking their miracle pills that doctors are afraid to tell people about because they work so well they would be put out of business. /s

I think that you are correct about "natural therapy" people being on the wrong side of this. As you might notice from my posts here and elsewhere, I am all for keeping our bodies healthy through natural means: ie: I try to get all of my nutrition from natural food sources instead of supplements. I fully believe that natural things make us healthier and therefore more able to fight pathogens, but no part of me also thinks that there is a herb that will kill a virus. I guess I have a holistic approach in that I do as much naturally as I can, and then add vaccine (ie) as needed.