Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

[Jagartrott]

You could maybe chalk any stockpile to mismanagement at best. Warpspeed was a PR initiative and lacked long term planning. Linking a President that's been in office for a few weeks to some attempt to pressure anyone with a "stockpile" of super-cold and hard to transport vaccines seems far-fetched. No?

1. Read the links I respond to. Biden is currently responsible and his administration is actively blocking the AZ stock.
2. AZ is not hard to transport at all and doesn't need super-cold storage.

 

[jmdirt]

The U.S. Is Sitting on Tens of Millions of Vaccine Doses the World Needs (Published 2021)

Those tens of millions of doses from AstraZeneca are waiting for trial results, while countries that authorized the vaccine beg to have them.

www.nytimes.com

EXCLUSIVE EU told to expect no AstraZeneca vaccines from U.S. in near future - sources

Washington has told the European Union that it should not expect to receive AstraZeneca (AZN.L) COVID-19 vaccines manufactured in the United States any time soon, two EU sources said on Thursday, in a new blow to the bloc's supplies.

www.reuters.com

I think that this is an important paragraph:
"The administration’s hesitation is at least partly related to uncertainties with vaccine supply before a benchmark of late May laid down by President Biden when he promised enough vaccine doses to cover every adult in the United States. Vaccine production is notoriously complex and delicate, and problems like mold growth can interrupt a plant’s progress. "

Can you image sending those 30 million doses and then coming up short because they are never replaced?! Again, I'll stop before getting into political waters here...

 

[jmdirt]

So the USA is effectively sitting on millions of vaccines they cannot use, while they also prevent export of all other vaccines. Nice one. Say, Joey Biden, you were not happy with the EU wanting to sign a trade deal with China? Maybe you want to show why the US is a much better partner for us?

I think that you are looking at it too simplistically, but that's just IMO.

We do need to help each other, but at the risk of helping ourselves? And yet again, I'll stop short of the political discussion about countries.

 

[Koronin]

I'll have to hunt for it, but I did read something (don't remember where) that Pfizer is in negotiations to manufacture their vaccine in India if it get faster approval and freedom of exports and pricing.

Here's the article:

Exclusive: Pfizer wants to make vaccine in India if faster clearance, export freedom assured - sources

Pfizer Inc has told the Indian government it wants to produce its coronavirus vaccine locally if assured of faster regulatory clearance and freedom on pricing and exports, two sources with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

www.reuters.com

 

[BlueRoads]

This is all political now. Earlier it was a medical question, but now, in the middle of the vaccinations, it's as political as it gets. I think all governments are under intern pressure, which is why the current US-government doesn't want to risk appearing as the one who doesn't put Americans first. Yes, even the Guardian has a very nationalistic take on this. In Germany, what you Americans call Pfizer or Pfizer/Biontech at best is always Biontech or Pfizer/Biontech at best - and there has been a decent outcry, that a vaccine "that was developed in Germany" is now used in other countries far more than in Germany. Also the European Countries are very angry that the joint European approach didn't bring them that many doses. As a German I am angry, too, of course - but in the end we are way better off than some other countries. There's not enough vaccines, the distribution is anything but fair, in the end everyone thinks of themselves first. Yeah, nobody should hord the vaccines. But that's just the way it is. I remember a conversation at the beginning of the year with my father, joking about Sputnik. Now, who knows, it might well be used in Germany and I might get it.

 

[Jagartrott]

We do need to help each other, but at the risk of helping ourselves? And yet again, I'll stop short of the political discussion about countries.

We're talking about a vaccine that isn't even approved in the US, nor is there any indication it is going to be approved soon. There is enough vaccine production to get all of you a vaccine by the end of May. What good does this do? I can tell you, same as Blueroads, this is creating a lot of anger over on this side of the Atlantic.

 

[jmdirt]

We're talking about a vaccine that isn't even approved in the US, nor is there any indication it is going to be approved soon. There is enough vaccine production to get all of you a vaccine by the end of May. What good does this do? I can tell you, same as Blueroads, this is creating a lot of anger over on this side of the Atlantic.

So if the USA ships you the vax, and then approves it at the end of the month/mid next month, then what? You won't be replacing it that quickly if ever. You don't know that there is enough production so we aren't going to bank on that. So you guys are mad at us because you didn't get your sh*t in order as well as we did (neither did that great)? Your anger is misdirected IMO. Also IMO, if we start sharing vax, it shouldn't be with you, it should be with countries who can't do it on their own.

 

[roundabout]

I think that this is an important paragraph:
"The administration’s hesitation is at least partly related to uncertainties with vaccine supply before a benchmark of late May laid down by President Biden when he promised enough vaccine doses to cover every adult in the United States. Vaccine production is notoriously complex and delicate, and problems like mold growth can interrupt a plant’s progress. "

Can you image sending those 30 million doses and then coming up short because they are never replaced?! Again, I'll stop before getting into political waters here...

The important paragraph is 13.1.(e) in the AstraZeneca purchase agreement

AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the Comission and the Participating Member States that it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this agreement.

The 2 contracts that I see on the HHS website both have an effective date of 28th of October 2020, while the EU contract has an effective date of 27th of August 2020.

Now of course the question is whether Astrazeneca did notify that some production of the EU doses will be done in the United States or it decided to plug the gap using the doses already manufactured for USA.

 

[Koronin]

I suspect Canada has a bigger claim to the doses in the US than Europe dose and it's more likely those doses were to be split between North American (and possibly South American) countries and hadn't been originally intended to go to Europe to begin with.

 

[roundabout]

I honestly have no idea if first come, first served principle works here, but as far as a quick google search can tell, Canada signed their APA somewhere in late September, so one month after the EU.

It is true though, that USA was not intended to be a manufacturing site of the EU doses as per agreement, while it is probably the case for Canada (doesn't seem like their agreement is publicly available).

 

[Jagartrott]

It is true though, that USA was not intended to be a manufacturing site of the EU doses as per agreement, while it is probably the case for Canada (doesn't seem like their agreement is publicly available).

The manufacturing site in the US is in fact explicitly mentioned in the EU contract as a back-up site in case they cannot supply the agreed doses from other sites. It's in the link you yourself provided. The UK sites were also mentioned in the contract, but we're also getting nothing from them "because".

"AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccines are produced in the United States in a plant near Baltimore run by Catalent, which is listed in the EU supply contract with AstraZeneca as a “back-up supply site” and has been authorised by the EU drugs regulator as a manufacturer of vaccine ingredients."

 

[djpbaltimore]

Lol. Interesting timing for this announcement.

Exclusive: AstraZeneca to seek U.S. authorization for COVID-19 vaccine this month or early next - sources

AstraZeneca Plc is preparing to file for U.S. emergency use authorization (EUA) for its COVID-19 vaccine later this month or early April after accumulating enough data to judge the inoculation's efficacy, sources with knowledge of the ongoing clinical trial told Reuters...

mobile.reuters.com

 

[jmdirt]

Lol. Interesting timing for this announcement.

Exclusive: AstraZeneca to seek U.S. authorization for COVID-19 vaccine this month or early next - sources

AstraZeneca Plc is preparing to file for U.S. emergency use authorization (EUA) for its COVID-19 vaccine later this month or early April after accumulating enough data to judge the inoculation's efficacy, sources with knowledge of the ongoing clinical trial told Reuters...

mobile.reuters.com

This is probably a chicken and egg type discussion,:
-They (USA Gov, AZ) knew that approval was just around the corner.
-They decided that if they are going to keep AZ in the USA they better get it approved.

What happens if the FDA still doesn't like the numbers?!

 

[jmdirt]

The manufacturing site in the US is in fact explicitly mentioned in the EU contract as a back-up site in case they cannot supply the agreed doses from other sites. It's in the link you yourself provided. The UK sites were also mentioned in the contract, but we're also getting nothing from them "because".

"AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccines are produced in the United States in a plant near Baltimore run by Catalent, which is listed in the EU supply contract with AstraZeneca as a “back-up supply site” and has been authorised by the EU drugs regulator as a manufacturer of vaccine ingredients."

OK, be that as it may, who are you mad at? Who isn't doing what a) they agreed to, b) they should have, c) you want them to?

 

[Keram]

I get finally a feeling that normality is coming with vaccines after read this article
https://www.timesofisrael.com/resta...raelis-flock-back-after-year-of-restrictions/

It is strange that I have such strong emotions in me after seeing crowded bar It brought me some great vacation memories of crowded bars in Spain and some Budapest alley.

Anyway as I stated earlier my parents were vaccinated with AZ this thursday. My dad had no side effects except little sore arm and my mom had strong headeache thursday night and she felt weak that evening. Nothing serious.

 

[Koronin]

Still don't think it would be a good idea to use A.Z in the US. They've so far had a PR nightmare and the last thing we need is to add a vaccine that people willing to take the other vaccines aren't willing to take. That's isn't going to help with the group who still isn't sure about the vaccines. Plus several European countries just put A.Z. on hold.

 

[Jagartrott]

OK, be that as it may, who are you mad at? Who isn't doing what a) they agreed to, b) they should have, c) you want them to?

a) AstraZeneca
b) AstraZeneca and the US
c) AstraZeneca and the US

It's really simple: the US has enough vaccine supply AND people there will refuse the AZ vaccine en masse. One of their major allies (who helped develop 2/3 of the vaccines the US currently uses) needs this supply right now and has a right to it under the AZ contract. It would make total sense to release at least part of the stock to them and to other countries.

 

[jmdirt]

a) AstraZeneca
b) AstraZeneca and the US
c) AstraZeneca and the US

It's really simple: the US has enough vaccine supply AND people there will refuse the AZ vaccine en masse. One of their major allies (who helped develop 2/3 of the vaccines the US currently uses) needs this supply right now and has a right to it under the AZ contract. It would make total sense to release at least part of the stock to them and to other countries.

IMO:
a) AZ
b) AZ and your government
c) AZ and USA (because its what you want the USA to do) (this is unrealistic IMO for any country though)

Neither the EU nor the UK would be sending it to the USA if the shoe was on their foot. If USAers do reject it then we better be sending it to someone else.

 

[Koronin]

IMO:
a) AZ
b) AZ and your government
c) AZ and USA (because its what you want the USA to do) (this is unrealistic IMO for any country though)

Neither the EU nor the UK would be sending it to the USA if the shoe was on their foot. If USAers do reject it then we better be sending it to someone else.

There is a much larger group of people in the US who want nothing to do with the A.Z. vaccine than who are hesitant about vaccines or won't take any of them. There are a lot who will take the other three, but won't take A.Z. Now there is group that also only is willing to take the J&J one as well. People here are seeing the reports of European countries halting use of it due to current investigations over blood clots. Currently Europe has enough of an issue with people refusing to take the A.Z. vaccine and that will be a much bigger issue in the US.

 

[Koronin]

Now we have this article out of Norway. More possible blood clot issues after taking the A.Z. vaccine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/three-health-workers-received-astrazeneca-151017133.html

 

[Jagartrott]

Neither the EU nor the UK would be sending it to the USA if the shoe was on their foot. If USAers do reject it then we better be sending it to someone else.

The EU has exported about 35 million vaccine doses so far, including to the UK and the US (around 10 million to the UK in total so far). Return flow, I believe, has been zero. EU officials should've studied game theory more.

 

[roundabout]

Neither the EU nor the UK would be sending it to the USA if the shoe was on their foot. If USAers do reject it then we better be sending it to someone else.

What gives 'you' the right to decide what is to be done with vaccines manufactured using other countries money?

 

[Unchained]

What gives 'you' the right to decide what is to be done with vaccines manufactured using other countries money?

I guess I am not really getting this..food,gasoline,corn,pork,chicken,beef..water pumps,cobalt..where do we start or stop? I sure don't know. In the world, it's generally accepted that might is right and that some loosely based laser fair system is in place. So if you have the cash or credit headroom to buy vaccines you get them.
I certainly see the points people are making about politics and ethics but it's hard to really understand were objections would have been voiced and what would be the corrective action or agency for enforcement.
Trump was very very clear..US companies would supply vaccines to the U.S.first..companies that the U.S. contracted with would fulfill their obligations.
I also have seen commentary on vaccine hoarding and what to do about it, often with some part of the discussion leaning into a version of..don't let the things go to waste..
I sure don't have any answers..In Mexico they have zero cash,some credit and have taken mass delivery of Sputnik vaccine from Russia w cloudy details about payment. Also 3 states in Mexico are reporting that they recently went into a green Covid status..a kind of coast is clear.
The U.S.has @11% of the population vaccinated.
In many places in central and South America..vaccines are just starting to get there..most of Africa is sounding the same.
I personally don't,have never seen any level of world cooperation,on anything,and I didn't expect that there would be a summit saying,let's all look out for one another and share information and medicine regardless of status or wealth..it would be great..but do you really think something like that is going to happen?
And not to pile on but..both New York and California had a bunch of wasted vaccine early on due to draconian measures saying if you got caught injecting anybody outside the authorized group..lose license or get fined or both..then stories of immunization sites injecting anyone so that vaccines didn't spoil..
also in Mexico,because of improving conditions hospital personnel that were on paid leave because of medical conditions,diabetes,hypertension,over weight,esc. Will possibly be called back to work. Replacement workers,lots w 90 day contracts will vacate and let the employees resume their jobs.. Lots of signals about a start of returning normal routines.

 

[movingtarget]

'Covid is taking over': Brazil plunges into deadliest chapter of its epidemic

Last year, Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil had reached ‘the tail end’ of one of the world’s worst outbreaks. Three months later the country has lost almost 100,000 more lives

www.theguardian.com

 

[jmdirt]

What gives 'you' the right to decide what is to be done with vaccines manufactured using other countries money?

Me personally, I don't have that right. What gives "you" the right to demand that the USA give up something in its possession, and that it may utilize?

EDIT: Let's back up though because you are spinning the discussion. The OP was bashing the USA/Biden for not sending their AZ to EU/UK "the people on this side of the Atlantic are so mad". So What gives the OP the right to to demand that the USA send their AZ (no matter how or why they have it). The USA government's number one priority is USA citizens. As I said, if we end up not using it (or approving it) by all means we had better share it.

If you don't like your country sharing their vax or their research money be mad at them.