Could a doped EPO Era "1 day classics rider" win the TdF 7 Times in a Row?

[Tim_sleepless]

With Spatacus, he could become chemically enhanced like lance by getting cancer and going through chemotherapy to drop 20 kg,

Lost 20kg eh? The things you learn on here, to be sure.

 

[Cloxxki]

If you take 100 random, clean, pro riders (hypothetically speaking that such can be found at all).
You test their power outputs, and performance over a 3-week GT.
Next year, you allow all of them to dope to the max (Ferrari level) of the 1999-2005 era, and a reasonable change to get through the controls with all negatives.
Will they all improve the same percentage? Will it be like a 4-6% improvement over the whole range of riders, or will it be rather 2-15%?

If the latter case is closer to reality, and Lance would be the one freak getting +15%, he was in a very good starting position, having been a decent one-week racer and world champ in his early 20's already. He had a base to work from. Let's face it, his early races he won because he solo'ed for 200km. Sometimes he'd be caught, sometimes not. Stupid riding, as I think he wrote himself in his book.
If he was already well doped then, the 7 Tour win don't make sense. If he was clean back then, hey, there's something.

Think of Nikki Terpstra, a guy I happen to like a lot.. One-day super racer who can take on anyone. Good time trialist also. Let's say (which I want to believe) he's clean. And let's say he could get more than his 10% worth from a good Ferrari program, just because his body responds well to it. If you're Bruyneel, you'd want him on your TdF team, right?

 

[Squares]

Lost 20kg eh? The things you learn on here, to be sure.

His racing weight dropped by 7-8 kg from before chemo to after, and that was his performance levels. Given mucsle atrophy during chemo, 20 kg is mild.

Wo, you have any facts to back up your comment that you can add, or do you prefer to just make smart *** comments?

I'd prefer if you could come up with some data to counter my statement, but I suspect you cannot.

 

[mikkemus23]

His racing weight dropped by 7-8 kg from before chemo to after, and that was his performance levels. Given mucsle atrophy during chemo, 20 kg is mild.

Wo, you have any facts to back up your comment that you can add, or do you prefer to just make smart *** comments?

I'd prefer if you could come up with some data to counter my statement, but I suspect you cannot.

Source for weightloss?

IIRC evidence says he in fact did not lose (race)weight, its all part of the "transformation to a TdF winner spin"

 

[Dr. Maserati]

His racing weight dropped by 7-8 kg from before chemo to after, and that was his performance levels. Given mucsle atrophy during chemo, 20 kg is mild.

Wo, you have any facts to back up your comment that you can add, or do you prefer to just make smart *** comments?

I'd prefer if you could come up with some data to counter my statement, but I suspect you cannot.

I had the brain operation there the Thursday prior to my next chemo cycle and then started that the following Monday with 3 more cycles of VIP. The last VIP (chemos) were inpatient...cycles 3 and 4 I was sick as a dog, but I didn't lose any weight...

Interview with Lance in February 1997.

 

[mikkemus23]

Thanks, doc

 

[Tim_sleepless]

His racing weight dropped by 7-8 kg from before chemo to after, and that was his performance levels. Given mucsle atrophy during chemo, 20 kg is mild.

Wo, you have any facts to back up your comment that you can add, or do you prefer to just make smart *** comments?

I'd prefer if you could come up with some data to counter my statement, but I suspect you cannot.

"It has been suggested that Armstrong lost weight from the cancer, making him a leaner (and better) cyclist. But Armstrong's weight eight months after his chemotherapy was the same as before his cancer treatment, according to Coyle."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstrong_2.html

 

[pmcg76]

I know I posted this in one of these oft repeated threads, in an interview with Winning magazine in early 96, Lance himself admitted he would never be a Tour contender, he just didnt have it. Interview was with Rich Carlson, in the same interview he made it clear he was in the sport for the short haul and money, he even said he couldnt see himself competing into his 30s as he hoped to have made enough money by then.

I followed Lance in his early days and every rider, coach, manager, dog in the street had him pegged as the rider most likely to become the dominant Classics rider of his generation, especially after he won the Worlds in 93. It never happened for whatever reasons but I never once heard him mentioned as a potential Tour rider. Compare with the likes of Zulle, Dufaux, Virenque who all showed up as stage racers in their early careers.

Whoever used the Du Pont argument in his defence is really clutching at straws, Du Pont was a pro-am race where only a handful of top Euro teams(those with American interests) made the trip. Motorola and Lance set it as their main target of the season, if they won, it was a good year. I never seen too many Tour contenders or even potential contenders competing at Du Pont. I would say the race was at or below the level of the Tour of Georgia as there were more good American stage racers shooting for Georgia. A better argument would be that he won Settimama Bergamasque as a 19 yo amateur or a stage race in Spain. I think most people seen Bobby J as a more likely Tour contender.

Would Lance have won 7 Tours if every rider was squeaky clean, no way, I dont think he would have won even one.

As for the original stupid OP, no other classics rider would have taken the risk of gambling everything on Tour victories, the Classics were too important for all Euros in comparison to their importance for an outsider American. If LeMond and Armstrong had one thing in common, it is the fact that they did a good job of convincing a lot of people that the only race that mattered was Le Tour.

 

[Oldman]

Eddie B said from the beginning he had TDF potential, and he's forgotten more about bike racing than either of those two guys will ever know. I'm included to go with his opinion, despite his past transgressions.

You don't know anything about our experience but Eddie B's is very well known. He introduced transfusions and "vitamins" to young racers as a DS and USA Cycling coach after importing the Eastern Bloc "coaching" philosophy from Poland. We have him to thank as well as the win at all cost attitude pushed on the cycling program by the USOC for the current state of affairs. As for Lance-Eddie B and Carmichael were also shameless self promoters and Lance was the wagon they hitched themselves to because he would embrace the regime wholeheartedly. His results guaranteed funding. That Lance did that at and early age shows much about their faith in him. The same was evidenced in Tyler Hamilton and we all know where he is now. Enter Tom Weisel, willing to continue funding into the pro era and you have a trifecta of false performances. Weisel eventually recognized the shortfall of Eddie's old school enhancements and introduced Gorski for the new era.

 

[Belokki]

Lance in 1996

in the 2000s
In the early years, Lance had a more muscular upper body, thanks to his triathlon years, less muscular legs... he got back his weight, but in different muscles, after cancer, his upper body was leaner, but he had stronger legs...

 

[Anonymous]

In the early years, Lance had a more muscular upper body, thanks to his triathlon years, less muscular legs... he got back his weight, but in different muscles, after cancer, his upper body was leaner, but he had stronger legs...

Didn't you get the message? It is okay for fanboys to admit he doped now. You just have to interject that everyone else was doping, and that he was still superior and was just riding on a level playing field. Only the VERY casual fan and the moronic still try to say his change was all about weight/spinning/a heart the size of a pile of cow dung, etc, etc, etc. Its cool to come out of the closet now man, just thought you should know.

As for the picture, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of grand tours know that as they progress, you become extremely lean. To compare a photo of Lance racing a one week tour in the US versus his physique during the TdF is just stupid.

 

[redtreviso]

"It has been suggested that Armstrong lost weight from the cancer, making him a leaner (and better) cyclist. But Armstrong's weight eight months after his chemotherapy was the same as before his cancer treatment, according to Coyle."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstrong_2.html

right...and lance's muscles grew back with a brand new twitch percentage

 

[Hugh Januss]

OK fine polish, you win. Lance Armstrong was the best Tour de France rider of the "EPO TDF centric era" and he will remain such until when/if he is stripped of some or all of those titles.
Happy now? Now go polish something else.

 

[Polish]

Floyd is a naughty Elf...

As Floyd Landis said "Look. At some point, people have to tell their kids that Santa Claus isn't real. I hate to be the guy to do it, but it's just not real."

Eddy is Santa Claus, not Lance. Floyd is going to recieve some coal

But the rest of us can look forward to presents in July!

No doubt there were some on EPO by then (Rominger won both stages!)- but on the first 2 mountain stages Lance finished 86th @21:26, 97th 28:47.
On the same stages Andy Hampsten finished 4th @1:13 & 9th @3:06.

Lance was a first year neo-pro that race.
Those results are awesome for a neo-pro.
Coming after a stage win that year.
There has not been a neo-pro success like Lance's since....Lance.

 

[buckwheat]

With Spatacus, he could become chemically enhanced like lance by getting cancer and going through chemotherapy to drop 20 kg, then building himself back as a climber. I'm pretty sure that cytotoxic chemotherapy agents are not listed as banned performance enhancing drugs.

And to those who said Lance was not a good 1 day racer, diud you forget about his San Sebastian win, World Championship, and numerous seconds in Amstel Gold?

Boogerd beat him in Amstel, how many tour titles does he have?

How many world championships does Vino have? How many San Sebastian titles? Yes, Vino did win LBL, but even transfused to the gills, he has yet to win the Tour de France let alone 7.

In the end, Lance was a good 1 day rider, whose body was transformed by chemotherapy so he had the opportunity to rebuild for the classics or keep the upper body thin and build the legs only for climbing.

The fact that he doped didn't change the type of races he was winning, that was the chemo.

Lance raced at under 140 lbs after chemo?

 

[Oldman]

Eddy is Santa Claus, not Lance. Floyd is going to recieve some coal

But the rest of us can look forward to presents in July!




Lance was a first year neo-pro that race.
Those results are awesome for a neo-pro.
Coming after a stage win that year.
There has not been a neo-pro success like Lance's since....Lance.

Actually look at Alpes' Avatar. Bernard had arguably the best neo-pro career and many thought it was unusual.

 

[Oldman]

OK fine polish, you win. Lance Armstrong was the best Tour de France rider of the "EPO TDF centric era" and he will remain such until when/if he is stripped of some or all of those titles.
Happy now? Now go polish something else.

Phrased pefectly.

 

[Polish]

Actually look at Alpes' Avatar. Bernard had arguably the best neo-pro career and many thought it was unusual.

But Hinault raced for three+ years under Guimard before being allowed to start the TdF. Different program.

And to those who said Lance was not a good 1 day racer, diud you forget about his San Sebastian win, World Championship, and numerous seconds in Amstel Gold?

Boogerd beat him in Amstel, how many tour titles does he have?

How many world championships does Vino have? How many San Sebastian titles? Yes, Vino did win LBL, but even transfused to the gills, he has yet to win the Tour de France let alone 7.
.

And Lance started and finished Milan San Remo and Tour of Flanders multiple times.
Won the coveted "Ardennes Trophy" also.
Podiumed at LBL how many times?
Won the Fleche.

Vino and Cadel COMBINED can not match Lance's 1 day results

 

[CycloErgoSum]

That's such a good argument, Polish; I guess Lance has absolutely nothing to worry about now. He's sure to be vindicated and able to continue awaking the world from its dogmatic slumbers that there's this thing called cancer that only he knows about and can cure by riding a bike.

Maybe Zeus knocked up his mom. That's why he's so damn talented. It would also explain his querelous personality: those Olympians had lousy tempers. Lance won't die, either, he'll become a constellation and we'll have a 13th sign of the zodiac: the Douche.

"Hey, you're cute! What star sign are you?"

"I'm a Douche with a Cancer rising."

"Oh bumma."

 

[gearmasher]

Whoever used the Du Pont argument in his defence is really clutching at straws, Du Pont was a pro-am race where only a handful of top Euro teams(those with American interests) made the trip. Motorola and Lance set it as their main target of the season, if they won, it was a good year. I never seen too many Tour contenders or even potential contenders competing at Du Pont. I would say the race was at or below the level of the Tour of Georgia as there were more good American stage racers shooting for Georgia. A better argument would be that he won Settimama Bergamasque as a 19 yo amateur or a stage race in Spain. I think most people seen Bobby J as a more likely Tour contender.

Wait a minute, the year Lance finished second at Tour Dupont it was to that great stage racer with all those Grand Tour victories......... Ekimov. Need I say more?

 

[sub240]

Could a doped EPO Era "1 day classics rider" win the TdF 7 Times in a Row?

I would argue correctly - No Way.

Others would argue "of course, its already been done - Lance"
To those "others" I ask the question....name another besides Lance....

Johan Museeuw? No way Museeuw. Could barely finish doped to the gills.

Michele Bartoli? Maybe win 1 in a row. But 7? Doubt it. Too small a bike.

Frank Vandenbroucke? Potential for maybe 3 in a row. But a bit fragile mentally bless his soul.

Laurent Jalabert? Hmmmm...he WAS awesome. Kinda like Lance. But he was doped right? And still did not win one. Win 7 in a row? Nope sorry.

Spartacus? He is awesome too! But could dope turn him into a strong enough climber to win one two three four five six seven in a row? You think?


So, was Lance One of a Kind?
I already Know the Answer to that one lol!

He won 7 times in a row. The answer to your question is within that statement.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Eddy is Santa Claus, not Lance. Floyd is going to recieve some coal

But the rest of us can look forward to presents in July!




Lance was a first year neo-pro that race.
Those results are awesome for a neo-pro.
Coming after a stage win that year.
There has not been a neo-pro success like Lance's since....Lance.

If Lance was a first year neo Pro in 1993, why did he finish last in San Sebastian as a Pro in 1992? Neo Pro - is based on calendar year.

Andy Schleck, like Lance, not a neo-pro but 2nd in the Giro -his 1st GT, in 2007 at 21.

 

[Belokki]

If Lance was a first year neo Pro in 1993, why did he finish last in San Sebastian as a Pro in 1992? Neo Pro - is based on calendar year.

Andy Schleck, like Lance, not a neo-pro but 2nd in the Giro -his 1st GT, in 2007 at 21.

Alberto finished 31st in his first GT at 22, does that make Andy better?

Andy has 3 second places in the GTs, you're comparing him to the wrong guy...

 

[sub240]

Andy has 3 second places in the GTs, you're comparing him to the wrong guy...

Easy Belokki your about to get the smakdown from the good doctor.

 

[hrotha]

If Lance was a first year neo Pro in 1993, why did he finish last in San Sebastian as a Pro in 1992? Neo Pro - is based on calendar year.

Do stagiaires count as pros? I don't know if Lance was a stagiaire in 1992 or if he had a proper contract and just chose to stay as an amateur so he could be in the Olympics, I'm just asking because it's something that has always bugged me.