Cycle of Lies

[thehog]

SDS is with Ben Foster, Chris O'Dowd and Dustin Hoffman.

AFAIK, I think the rights to Cycle of Lies have been acquired elsewhere but no cast has been assembled yet.

Thanks. Think I'll skip then SDS movie. But maybe they'll give it enough dramatic effect to make it interesting.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Please dont be like me mate Hoggy and post some link.

 

[Digger]

Thanks. Think I'll skip then SDS movie. But maybe they'll give it enough dramatic effect to make it interesting.

Considering the people they have as consultants and the money they are earning for their 'work', I would rather scratch out my own eyes.

 

[pmcg76]

Did you read this part?


So we are led to believe that JV told Floyd to tell USADA everything...eventhough what JV himself had told USADA at that stage was not much better than useless.

I read it all and is still does not make what RR said as incorrect. JVs mantra seems to have been, tell the authorities but don't go to the press with stuff. Nothing in the Floyd statement contradicts that.

What I would find strange is how a few pages back, Betsy explained how difficult things could be for those who were in Armstrongs sphere if they didn't tow the line. She included JV in that grouping yet you somehow missed that post and keep harping on about what JV said in 2005.

 

[skidmark]

It's rather compelling, I agree.

When you couple that piece of information with Vaughters response:



http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...he-tour-of-california-and-win-it-clean_117464

Vaughters has taken zero responsibility for a problem he was well aware of.

I jest, but I assume it was Sheryl Crow's job to speak up, yes?

But you're accusing him of something he's already addressed, hasn't he? I don't have a specific quote or story coming to mind, but I seem to remember quite clearly that Vaughters' position has always been 'talk to the authorities when it makes sense, don't make a big deal in the press'. Betsy just said in this thread that he went to USADA voluntarily (certainly after Floyd, but maybe even simultaneous to this quote). So yes, 'zero responsibility' to a press that's going to damage the sport and that was under narrative control of Camp Armstrong, but not zero responsibility towards the authorities. Making Sheryl Crow jokes and roll-eye emoticons kind of serves to deflect from this point.

Do you really think this would have worked if it was played out in the press? The impact of the Reasoned Decision seemed to me to be that an official, third-party source got the private confessions of those involved, and they corroborated each other so thoroughly that even the Armstrong machine couldn't stop the avalanche when it all hit. If it had just streamed through the media piece by piece, he could have headed it off at all the passes, made it look like they all had something to gain. He even did that with USADA and the 'witch hunt' thing, and it almost worked until the bomb dropped and was big. So yeah, maybe you want JV to be more like Mel Gibson as William Wallace, shouting and swinging a sword to great fanfare, only to get killed for his bluster and commitment to making a spectacle, but time seems to have shown that his approach was the more effective one. You might not like it, but calling it 'zero responsibility' is a little facile.

 

[Digger]

So yeah, maybe you want JV to be more like Mel Gibson as William Wallace, shouting and swinging a sword to great fanfare,

Now that would make me cheer for Garmin...JV dressed up as William Wallace each race!

 

[mewmewmew13]

Now that would make me cheer for Garmin...JV dressed up as William Wallace each race!

Ask him
I'll bet he'd do it..

 

[Digger]

Ask him
I'll bet he'd do it..

Honestly that is funny....him walking into press conferences swinging a sword!
I'd be his biggest advocate on twitter...

 

[Race Radio]

Floyd Landis:

Thanks for proving my point

“Vaughters, have you ever talked to the press? Saying ‘none of your business’ is probably the worst thing you can say.”

JV told Floyd to tell everything to USADA but TO THE PRESS to just talk about his own actions as it may interfere with the investigation.

At the time I disagreed with JV's position. I hammered him publicly and privately. I now realize he was right. Instead of inventing things perhaps you can as well?

 

[Digger]

Thanks for proving my point



JV told Floyd to tell everything to USADA but TO THE PRESS to just talk about his own actions as it may interfere with the investigation.

At the time I disagreed with JV's position. I hammered him publicly and privately. I now realize he was right. Instead of inventing things perhaps you can as well?

In an earlier post today you said 'we' - I highlighted it...just curious as to who you mean by we?

 

[thehog]

But you're accusing him of something he's already addressed, hasn't he? I don't have a specific quote or story coming to mind, but I seem to remember quite clearly that Vaughters' position has always been 'talk to the authorities when it makes sense, don't make a big deal in the press'. Betsy just said in this thread that he went to USADA voluntarily (certainly after Floyd, but maybe even simultaneous to this quote). So yes, 'zero responsibility' to a press that's going to damage the sport and that was under narrative control of Camp Armstrong, but not zero responsibility towards the authorities. Making Sheryl Crow jokes and roll-eye emoticons kind of serves to deflect from this point.

Do you really think this would have worked if it was played out in the press? The impact of the Reasoned Decision seemed to me to be that an official, third-party source got the private confessions of those involved, and they corroborated each other so thoroughly that even the Armstrong machine couldn't stop the avalanche when it all hit. If it had just streamed through the media piece by piece, he could have headed it off at all the passes, made it look like they all had something to gain. He even did that with USADA and the 'witch hunt' thing, and it almost worked until the bomb dropped and was big. So yeah, maybe you want JV to be more like Mel Gibson as William Wallace, shouting and swinging a sword to great fanfare, only to get killed for his bluster and commitment to making a spectacle, but time seems to have shown that his approach was the more effective one. You might not like it, but calling it 'zero responsibility' is a little facile.

I'm mearly providing "balance" to a story and it's players who appear to have been caught up in an Internet race to be "right".

My comments with respect to Vaughers are based on his "insertion" into the process of which he was a witness. I have trouble with that position. We've moved out of one fire with Armstrong into another whereby "deals" are struck between USADA and Garmin riders.

I'm sure other teams in the peloton would like such protection and favouritism.

Nepotism it is. And it's just my opinion. Nothing else.

And I promise not to mention Sheryl Crow.

 

[Merckx index]

JV and I are having an affair so I'm deeply offended at all the invective. I was really hoping someone would see us arm in arm in Boulder in January but no one did. Anyway, Toronto was a way for us to be together that's why he was there. At my request. (He doesn't complain like Frankie and dresses way nicer.)

You must be the first date JV ever had. He told us before he never even had a prom date. And Frankie must be on a lot of worst-dressed lists.

When JV doped there was no usada, no wada. Could that be why he wasn't sanctioned along with the fact of his indepth and voluntarily cooperation on his own volition?

When LA was fighting USADA prior to giving up and the Reasoned Decision, he tried to argue that they had no jurisdiction over events that occurred prior to their establishment. But USADA argued that they did. There was quite a bit about this in the letters that went back and forth in early summer of 2012, though I've forgotten the details. The arguments never made it to the court, of course.

The other thing is the statute of limitations. When JV confessed to USADA, wasn't it eight years after he had retired? But this would be complicated, because if JV admitted he was the anonymous rider who confessed with Frankie in 2006, that I suppose could be used to toll the period.

Someone here I'm sure knows more about this. I think JV probably was credited for coming forward, but it's interesting to ask what kind of case USADA would have had against him at that point.

 

[Big Doopie]

Nepotism it is.

Um... Are u sure u know what that means?

 

[Jeremiah]

JV and I are having an affair so I'm deeply offended at all the invective. I was really hoping someone would see us arm in arm in Boulder in January but no one did. Anyway, Toronto was a way for us to be together that's why he was there. At my request. (He doesn't complain like Frankie and dresses way nicer.)

That said a couple of points....
I've been critical of him as I have Frankie. I don't think people realize just how it was living under the very real fear of wonderboy. I'm not whining merely stating a fact. You people don't realize the fear we lived with on a daily basis for years whether it be fear you're going to lose your job, fear you're going to be publicly destroyed or fear you might be physically harmed. I may have been upset with JV (as well as my own husband) but looking back I understand some of the stuff I questioned. I've been apologized to by others while they idly stood by watching us get decimated. They felt bad they did nothing but saw what happened to us and didn't want the same for themselves. The difference is JV did go to usada on his own at the height of wonderboy's popularity. He was also the other anonymous rider who supported Frankie when Frankie confessed. Not one other teammate of Frankie's supported us. The only other cyclist who did was Greg the bitter nutjob known for his sour grapes.

Kathy and I thought there was safety in numbers - all of us who told the truth would be believed and that would be that. So stupid of us to think that. What JV learned from watching what happened to us was that he had to come out guns ablazing when the time was right. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess in the end, it all happened as it was supposed to and look at the result.

JV and RR's buddy are NOT in contact, not friends. JV was stupid enough as was I (my opinion) to give wonderboy a chance hoping that we could truly and really make amends. We were had. And I'm embarrassed by that.

When JV doped there was no usada, no wada. Could that be why he wasn't sanctioned along with the fact of his indepth and voluntarily cooperation on his own volition?
I agree with Aapajs's (sorry as I'm sure I got the name wrong) post.

There are other things I want to bring up in the book but I'll save that for another post.

Had LA not come back would it all have happened the way it was supposed to?

 

[blackcat]

Now that would make me cheer for Garmin...JV dressed up as William Wallace each race!

Betsy said JV already goes commando. or as the australians say, freeball

 

[Race Radio]

.

And I promise not to mention Sheryl Crow.

That's good. Because JV, unlike Crow, actually talked with USADA. He also got his riders and staff to talk to them. Also, unlike Crow, he called up the Feds to tell them what he knew, no invitation needed.

But of course you knew that.....

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's good. Because JV, unlike Crow, actually talked with USADA. He also got his riders and staff to talk to them. Also, unlike Crow, he called up the Feds to tell them what he knew, no invitation needed.

But of course you knew that.....

I asked earlier, but got no response.

Is there a link to this, detailing JV and his rider's involvement, or do we simply accept it because someone says so here on the forum?

ETA: I was under the impression the fed case had nothing to do with volunteering - people were brought in and offered the opportunity to let USADA be present.

 

[Race Radio]

I asked earlier, but got no response.

Is there a link to this, detailing JV and his rider's involvement, or do we simply accept it because someone says so here on the forum?

ETA: I was under the impression the fed case had nothing to do with volunteering - people were brought in and offered the opportunity to let USADA be present.

You can see a lot of it here
http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

It is also well covered in "Cycle of Lies"

As for the Fed case. Some witnesses, like JV, called up and volunteered information. Others were invited in to speak. Others were subpoenaed and spoke under oath in front of the Grand Jury

 

[Digger]

You can see a lot of it here
http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

It is also well covered in "Cycle of Lies"

As for the Fed case. Some witnesses, like JV, called up and volunteered information. Others were invited in to speak. Others were subpoenaed and spoke under oath in front of the Grand Jury

Just to clarify, is hog allowed reply to you In the same way you reply to his posts?
Secondly who is 'we' from an earlier post?
Thirdly who would be on this podium you mention?
Finally do you believe that all of macur's book is factually accurate, seen as you reference it so often?

 

[Jeremiah]

It's rather compelling, I agree.

When you couple that piece of information with Vaughters response:



http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...he-tour-of-california-and-win-it-clean_117464

Vaughters has taken zero responsibility for a problem he was well aware of.

I jest, but I assume it was Sheryl Crow's job to speak up, yes?

And people wonder why I am critical of JV.

And this is more nonsense from the same article.

Asked if, given his own breadth of understanding about the methods athletes use to cheat drug tests, Landis’ detailed claims of blood transfusions and injections of EPO sounded valid, Vaughters pointed the question towards Landis.

“That is something you need to ask Floyd,” he said. “Of course I am aware that blood transfusions have occurred in this sport, and that doping using recombinant erythropoietin has occurred. But the viability of what Floyd is claiming happened is something that only he knows.”


The bolded is complete bs and an outright lie and part of the reason JV finds himself in the position of having to defend himself.

The answer is JV knew damn well Landis' claims were valid and JV knew that EVERYONE IN CYCLING KNEW THE CLAIMS WERE VALID.

 

[thehog]

Just to clarify, is hog allowed reply to you In the same way you reply to his posts?
Secondly who is 'we' from an earlier post?
Thirdly who would be on this podium you mention?
Finally do you believe that all of macur's book is factually accurate, seen as you reference it so often?

Those familiar with ADR would be aware of the flowing matrix used to deduct factual conclusions.

by using statements only printed on this forum;

1) A states B went to USADA and Federal investigators in relation to doping and therefore acted appropriately.
2) B admitted publicly to breaking rules/laws of cycling when outside statute of limitations
3) B admitted to speaking with USADA without receiving sanction prior to the end of statute of limitations.
4) Pursuant to law C spoke to Federal investigators, C does not come under the jurisdiction of USADA.
5) A states C is a “co-conspirator” - i.e. a criminal and did not act appropriately.
6) C has neither been investigated, charged nor served punishment for criminal activity in relation to the matters specified or anything other crime on record.
7) Therefore C is not a “conspirator”, or criminal.
8) A has longstanding relationship with B.
9) A does not have a relationship with C, C does not have relationship with A or B.

Therefore,

a) Per 5) and 7) statements made by A in relation to C, based on fact, would be seen as “false” and based on “bias”.
b) Per 8) statements made by A in relation to B could be considered “unreliable” per the established falsity and bias in point a).

‘Bias’ is not used a derogatory term, just applied to establish relationship or intent – for example; A labels C a criminal not based on fact or truth but to remove doubt from B whom had broken rules/law etc. but later admitted and spoke to the various authorities.

It would be a case of cadit quastio, there is no argument.

This is not to say that both B and C didn't act appropriately. On the facts alone it is probable they both did. Therefore in this example, A comments would be struck leaving B & C on equal footing.


The question of non-sanction and the statue of limagions raises eyebrows but that is only my opinion.

 

[elizab]

I asked earlier, but got no response.

Is there a link to this, detailing JV and his rider's involvement, or do we simply accept it because someone says so here on the forum?

ETA: I was under the impression the fed case had nothing to do with volunteering - people were brought in and offered the opportunity to let USADA be present.

Through the course of all of this, we've learned quite a few things. One of them is JV going in to talk to USADA on his own volition. If you don't want to trust me, that's your prerogative. We asked authorities if it were true and it was. I'm not going to get into the detail of who how where why.

If you didn't want to talk to the feds, you were served a subpoena to appear before the grand jury. In our case we were willing to participate sans subpoena, hence, the talk with that nasty mr. jeff novitzky. We didn't need a lawyer, we didn't need usada present.

 

[elizab]

I'm on page 250 or so....
several impressions -

* wow on the true story of his upbringing. He learned to lie and manipulate from his mom.

* George contradicts himself with the whole "Frankie teaching me how to dope" bunk. he outright said it was Max Testa who taught him to dope not Frankie. Lance wasn't after Max, though. Hence, George listened to his leader to go after Frankie. He is after all "the loyal lieutenant" of armstrong

* george has zero moral compass.

* Armstrong flicking JT's chemo treatment because a fun opportunity came up with a popular band

* Can't remember if it's in the book but lance was blowing bubbles with his bubble gum at JT's funeral.

* He wouldn't give his mom commission on the house he bought?

* beating a 10 year old kid to the finish line in his bike ride?

* juliet's biting word in describing people be it Kristin, linda, lance et. al.

* Outing Chris Carmichael for the fraud he is; Och as well to some extent.

* I didn't contact the Troll, he contacted me first

* Allen Lim portrays himself as mr. anti-doper but the fact is he chose to be up to his neck in it with floyd as well as after, no?

* and all this "they didn't have a degree" - I don't buy it. My dad is an immigrant who only had a 8th grade education and came to America with nothing. Frankie didn't dope because he didn't have a college degree and wouldn't be able to find work. Maybe for other guys but unlike other dumb jocks, Frankie's pretty smart. I'm a staunch proponent for higher education but in America the opportunity is there to make of your life what you want. Hence, the statement about doping, pro athletics and lack of college I don't buy. Frankie really likes the sport, it's his passion, hence, he wanted to work at something he likes.

There are more but that's what sticks in my mind for now

 

[gooner]

Through the course of all of this, we've learned quite a few things. One of them is JV going in to talk to USADA on his own volition. If you don't want to trust me, that's your prerogative. We asked authorities if it were true and it was. I'm not going to get into the detail of who how where why.

If you didn't want to talk to the feds, you were served a subpoena to appear before the grand jury. In our case we were willing to participate sans subpoena, hence, the talk with that nasty mr. jeff novitzky. We didn't need a lawyer, we didn't need usada present.

What did you make of Sheryl's recent comments about yourself?

There was out of order to me where she at the time seemed to do nothing while good people were attacked. This was happening while she had Lance's ear to influence him. What's even more galling is she is now trying to distance herself totally from that period in question by saying it was only a "nanosecond" of her life.

 

[elizab]

What did you make of Sheryl's recent comments about yourself?

There was out of order to me where she at the time seemed to do nothing while good people were attacked. This was happening while she had Lance's ear to influence him. What's even more galling is she is now trying to distance herself totally from that period in question by saying it was only a "nanosecond" of her life.

Really, what did you expect? The woman who used her celebrity to propogate the myth and further the lie whilst accompanying him to his blood transfusions is going to whine about me calling her out? She was just another one of his weak women, another notch on his belt....

Crow in 2005:
“I don’t think the French people are on a mission to strip him of his integrity,” Crow said. “It’s just a handful of people pursuing that theory, and it’s tiresome and a nuisance, and it will eventually end, I hope.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...winning-teams-article-1.1149231#ixzz2qOnIPtnN

Crow in 2014:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...racted-people-who-are-very...-challenged.html

This time last year Crow was dragged into the controversy by comments from Betsy Andreu, wife of Armstrong’s ex-team-mate Frankie Andreu. In her opinion, Crow must have known something. The whistleblower who exposed the seven-times Tour de France winner said: “Sheryl was by his side when he was trying to destroy people and she said nothing. That’s unconscionable. It just astounds me.”

When I mention this, Crow replies coolly. “I think Betsy, just like everybody in this picture, has her own ulterior motivations. And Betsy doesn’t know me. I think grace goes a long way. I think going out into the press and talking about what people should and shouldn’t do when they don’t know anything about you or your story, is irresponsible and slightly on the weird tip, personally.”

A discreet silence is better? “I think people who go out and mouth off about people they don’t know, it makes them look bad. It certainly did not do her any great service.”