Cycle of Lies

[D-Queued]

Yea maybe it was also around this time that JV was telling Cycle Sport magazine that Lance was an 'all American hero.'

So when the Gibney movie premiere was on and I saw JV there with hands in the hair along with Betsy, I am there thinking, why are you there exactly?

Hi Digger,

May have posted this before, but we clearly missed each other at the Premiere.

I was actually impressed that JV showed up. That he would expose himself to the public in that way - a public that could only be expected to be cynical about doping in cycling - I thought said a lot about him.

There was very little for him to gain by being there. And he had two stage races he could have attended instead. Lots of excuses to not show.

I had chatted with JV a few years ago to caution him about a couple of his 'ryders'.

After the showing, I went up to JV at the Premiere and introduced myself.

He knew exactly who 'D-Queued' was.

Not all reformed dopers have treated me the same way - and I didn't hold out a laurel branch to JV the way I have with others.

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

Yea maybe it was also around this time that JV was telling Cycle Sport magazine that Lance was an 'all American hero.'

So when the Gibney movie premiere was on and I saw JV there with hands in the hair along with Betsy, I am there thinking, why are you there exactly?

Hard to argue with JV on the "American Hero" quote. That is what Lance was at the time, which only made JV's actions more challenging. Going against the Armstrong woodchipper had serious costs.

It is pretty clear why JV was at the Primere. If you ask Lance to list the people who brought him, and his co-conspirators, down JV is certainly on the podium.

 

[Digger]

Hard to argue with JV on the "American Hero" quote. That is what Lance was at the time, which only made JV's actions more challenging. Going against the Armstrong woodchipper had serious costs.

It is pretty clear why JV was at the Primere. If you ask Lance to list the people who brought him, and his co-conspirators, down JV is certainly on the podium.

Yes...jv also tried to discredit the retests in 2005...

But jv being there and being on the podium as you say...would that be the same jv who told Floyd to only reveal his own doping...or the sand jv who waited until the statute was up....or the same jv who gave a statement at the sca trial which wasn't honest. Or the same jv who wound never have come forward without Floyd and Jeff...or the sane jv who let Floyd fry...along with others.
So yea I ask again what the hell he was doing there...he had some cheek.
He has also stood up for rasmus despite him being more of less bribed by Astana...and still says that lance rode clean in 09...there's people in the clinic who did more to bring lance down than jv

 

[Digger]

Hi Digger,

May have posted this before, but we clearly missed each other at the Premiere.

I was actually impressed that JV showed up. That he would expose himself to the public in that way - a public that could only be expected to be cynical about doping in cycling - I thought said a lot about him.

There was very little for him to gain by being there. And he had two stage races he could have attended instead. Lots of excuses to not show.

I had chatted with JV a few years ago to caution him about a couple of his 'ryders'.

After the showing, I went up to JV at the Premiere and introduced myself.

He knew exactly who 'D-Queued' was.

Not all reformed dopers have treated me the same way - and I didn't hold out a laurel branch to JV the way I have with others.

Dave.

Whether he was nice to you or not isn't my point.
The reasons I feel he had sone cheek being there is In relaying to the rely to race radio.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes...jv also tried to discredit the retests in 2005...

But jv being there and being on the podium as you say...would that be the same jv who told Floyd to only reveal his own doping...or the sand jv who waited until the statute was up....or the same jv who gave a statement at the sca trial which wasn't honest. Or the same jv who wound never have come forward without Floyd and Jeff...or the sane jv who let Floyd fry...along with others.
So yea I ask again what the hell he was doing there...he had some cheek.
He has also stood up for rasmus despite him being more of less bribed by Astana...and still says that lance rode clean in 09...there's people in the clinic who did more to bring lance down than jv

You need to get your facts straight.

JV did not tell Floyd to only reveal his own doping
JV was talking to USADA years before the statute was up and years before Floyd and Jeff
He does not say Lance rode clean in 09.

He has not been perfect. I have certainly been critical of him over the years as has Floyd, but we recognize the importance of his role in this. I am also able to understand, and appreciate, his actions more with the passing of time....but to pretend he did nothing, had no role, is just silly

 

[Digger]

You need to get your facts straight.

JV did not tell Floyd to only reveal his own doping
JV was talking to USADA years before the statute was up and years before Floyd and Jeff
He does not say Lance rode clean in 09.
He has not been perfect. I have certainly been critical of him over the years as has Floyd, but we recognize the importance of his role in this. I am also able to understand, and appreciate, his actions more with the passing of time....but to pretend he did nothing, had no role, is just silly

And you get your facts straight on the bold...he has said that on both. You are not the only person who knows people.

Secondly did JV go on record with USADA...he says he told them a broad outline...which leads the question, why was he not suspended? Why was JV not given a ban if this is true?

Did he or did he not wait for SOL to be up before going public?

You say he'd be on the podium...ahead of Jeff, Tyler and Floyd in no particular order?

Until Jeff came knocking would he have gone on the record...or would it have been off the record, broad outline chats (as he said) to USADA.

Also look at this link...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

 

[Race Radio]

And you get your facts straight on the bold...he has said that on both. You are not the only person who knows people.

Secondly did JV go on record with USADA...he says he told them a broad outline...which leads the question, why was he not suspended? Why was JV not given a ban if this is true?

Did he or did he not wait for SOL to be up before going public?

You say he'd be on the podium...ahead of Jeff, Tyler and Floyd in no particular order?

Until Jeff came knocking would he have gone on the record...or would it have been off the record, broad outline chats (as he said) to USADA.

Also look at this link...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

Your position keeps changing, which is it? Did he wait for years or did he talk to USADA?

Repeating incorrect claims over and over does not make them fact. The good thing is there is a big thread where folks can rant and spew nonsense about JV, but to pretend he did not play a huge role in taking down Johan, Lance, etc is just absurd.

Do you have a recent link for JV claiming Lance rode the 09 Tour clean? Something more then "It's possible" with a shrug?

Have you read Juliet's book? Before you post more I suggest you do. What JV did, and did not do, is well covered.

 

[Digger]

Your position keeps changing, which is it? Did he wait for years or did he talk to USADA?

Repeating incorrect claims over and over does not make them fact. The good thing is there is a big thread where folks can rant and spew nonsense about JV, but to pretend he did not play a huge role in taking down Johan, Lance, etc is just absurd.

Have you read Juliet's book? Before you post more I suggest you do. What JV did, and did not do, is well covered.

No I am going along with your line of thinking for a second and teasing it out..if he did indeed talk to USADA then, why was he not suspended?

Secondly, yes, let's all wait for Macur to tell us what happened...as though we know no others...


Again repeating these claims...are you saying so that Floyd is telling lies in saying that JV told him not to name names?

Where is JV on this podium you talk of? Who is he ahead od?

And finally, did he tell the truth in his statements around the SCA trial?

Note: the Macur book - well we know already there are inaccuracies in that book.

 

[blackcat]

How about Lim's story of how he decided he would no longer enable Floyd's doping?




And I thought this was one of the funniest passages in a book that needed some comic relief:

I dont need to read any of the books. I have read everything RR has put out over 5 years, so I feel my knowledge went into the domain macur albergotti et al. the individual details are not the meta truth that melville speaks of when he defined a truth truth. its a sweeping narrative/chronology, the only person who would know it better is someone on the inside, RR or Floyd.

The individual anecdotes do not make it any more real for me.

 

[Netserk]

I thought JV told Landis not to name names publicly only, but ofc to tell everything to USADA.

 

[Digger]

I thought JV told Landis not to name names publicly only, but ofc to tell everything to USADA.

No he said speak to Travis but only tell his story...however that was possible.

 

[thehog]

Alas JV has kept a finger in every pie.

Recently fraternising with Lance.

What will come of this? What could he be up to?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...s-talking-about-moving-cycling-forward_287358

“The future of the sport for me is far more important than any pride issue I have over any scrap I got into with Lance five years ago,” Vaughters said. “That overshadows it by 1000 percent. To me, it’s never as black and white as a person is all good, or all bad. Anyone is forgivable. Lance did some nasty things to me over the years, without a doubt, but if he wants to talk about how to create solutions in cycling, I’m not going to turn that away.

“There aren’t many people that have all the information of what went down, of how it went down, and in order for those things to be corrected … if [Armstrong] is ostracized, there is no incentive, or reason, for him to provide information on how to fix the things he took advantage of,” Vaughters added. “If he’s pushed to the outside, he’s never going to do that. If I can help facilitate him clarifying all of this stuff, stuff that’s just dangling out there, on what really did go on with … a whole host of things, really … I’m going to try to do that.

“If Lance chooses to, he can have a very positive contribution,” Vaughters said. “He can be part of the solution, but people need to start understanding this needs to be tackled from a cultural level, not the finger-pointing level. He’s sort of struggling with that choice. I’m trying to be objective, and encouraging.”

 

[Digger]

Alas JV has kept a finger in every pie.

Recently fraternising with Lance.

What will come of this? What could he be up to?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...s-talking-about-moving-cycling-forward_287358

oh those two are in very regular contact.

 

[Jeremiah]

Alas indeed!

Alas JV has kept a finger in every pie.

Recently fraternising with Lance.

What will come of this? What could he be up to?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...s-talking-about-moving-cycling-forward_287358

You were accusing other posters of "slandering" JV who you had labeled a "great man."

The "JV talks, sort of" thread was aptly named.

In contrast to what would be the absurdity of a hypothetical, "LeMond talks, sort of" thread.

LeMond has not only completely reclaimed his reputation from the criminal Armstrong organization, but he has enhanced it. JV is in the neither here, nor there regions of his own making.

Which illustrates another of LeMond's quotes, "When you get second place, you say, 'I could have won it here, I could have won it there.' When you win, you never say anything; it's finished."

JV did this to himself, and he seems to keep doing this to himself. If he'd make clear, unequivocal statements to EVERYONE there would be no questioning of him now. Instead he seems to think you give one "truth" to the authorities and another to the public.

That's why he finds himself in this no win situation. Hedging.

This idea that Armstrong can or should be part of any solution is ridiculous. By Armstrong's own outrageous vindictiveness he should be excluded from any deals.

The guy has been given 20 strikes at least and he keeps fighting? Please.

 

[thehog]

oh those two are in very regular contact.

I'm sure they are.

I guess the next question is why?

The new clean era of cycling works in mysterious ways

 

[Jeremiah]

I'm sure they are.

I guess the next question is why?

The new clean era of cycling works in mysterious ways

The answer is here.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11035

You thought the questioning of JV was slanderous. Others disagreed. Have you changed your mind?

 

[Aapjes]

LeMond has not only completely reclaimed his reputation from the criminal Armstrong organization, but he has enhanced it. JV is in the neither here, nor there regions of his own making.

Which illustrates another of LeMond's quotes, "When you get second place, you say, 'I could have won it here, I could have won it there.' When you win, you never say anything; it's finished."

Yet Lemond lost his racing bike business and suffered from a very poor reputation for many years among casual fans. JV just kept building up his cycling team over the years and casual cycling fans don't have much of an opinion about them. IMO both of them have the same goal and just went about it differently. Lemond was the straight shooter and suffered for it. JV is a player and he tried to take advantages of opportunities. I think that behind the scenes, he had much bigger impact than he is given credit for. That is his style, leak anonymously when possible, encourage people to give evidence to authorities & journalists at the right time, etc.

It may not be the most sympathetic way to operate, but given the way we treat whistle blowers, it's often the smartest choice. In any case, I don't see how Lemond necessarily won, while JV lost. Perhaps they both won. Perhaps they were playing in a different contest.

This idea that Armstrong can or should be part of any solution is ridiculous. By Armstrong's own outrageous vindictiveness he should be excluded from any deals.

No matter what happens, Armstrong won't be allowed to compete in pro cycling or allowed to run a team. Also, it is unlikely that Armstrong has to offer much now, so at best he can reach a minimal deal. So JV's statements are probably intended more as a message to other dopers: repent and we'll be kind. He is also cementing his reputation as an adviser of ex-dopers who now want a clean sport. He builds his team on ex-dopers, so it's a smart business move that may attract more ex-dopers to his team.

But you have to think like a player to understand why JV does what he does. You clearly don't, which is why you think he is in a no-win situation. I think he is in a no-lose situation by making that statement.

 

[Jeremiah]

The Hedgehog and the Fox?

Yet Lemond lost his racing bike business and suffered from a very poor reputation for many years among casual fans. JV just kept building up his cycling team over the years and casual cycling fans don't have much of an opinion about them. IMO both of them have the same goal and just went about it differently. Lemond was the straight shooter and suffered for it. JV is a player and he tried to take advantages of opportunities. I think that behind the scenes, he had much bigger impact than he is given credit for. That is his style, leak anonymously when possible, encourage people to give evidence to authorities & journalists at the right time, etc.

It may not be the most sympathetic way to operate, but given the way we treat whistle blowers, it's often the smartest choice. In any case, I don't see how Lemond necessarily won, while JV lost. Perhaps they both won. Perhaps they were playing in a different contest.


No matter what happens, Armstrong won't be allowed to compete in pro cycling or allowed to run a team. Also, it is unlikely that Armstrong has to offer much now, so at best he can reach a minimal deal. So JV's statements are probably intended more as a message to other dopers: repent and we'll be kind. He is also cementing his reputation as an adviser of ex-dopers who now want a clean sport. He builds his team on ex-dopers, so it's a smart business move that may attract more ex-dopers to his team.

But you have to think like a player to understand why JV does what he does. You clearly don't, which is why you think he is in a no-win situation. I think he is in a no-lose situation by making that statement.

Good post, however I think JV wants to be seen as a hedgehog....

 

[Kennf1]

So far, one of the worst parts has to be when Armstrong partook in a kiddie race for his charity and he didn't let the kid in front of the pack win. Beat him at the line.

I guess he was trying to teach the boy a lesson...

"If you're not first, you're last."

 

[blackcat]

"If you're not first, you're last."

was it ashley olsen or mary-kate?

 

[blackcat]

was it ashley olsen or mary-kate?

both

 

[elizab]

Yea maybe it was also around this time that JV was telling Cycle Sport magazine that Lance was an 'all American hero.'

So when the Gibney movie premiere was on and I saw JV there with hands in the hair along with Betsy, I am there thinking, why are you there exactly?

JV and I are having an affair so I'm deeply offended at all the invective. I was really hoping someone would see us arm in arm in Boulder in January but no one did. Anyway, Toronto was a way for us to be together that's why he was there. At my request. (He doesn't complain like Frankie and dresses way nicer.)

That said a couple of points....
I've been critical of him as I have Frankie. I don't think people realize just how it was living under the very real fear of wonderboy. I'm not whining merely stating a fact. You people don't realize the fear we lived with on a daily basis for years whether it be fear you're going to lose your job, fear you're going to be publicly destroyed or fear you might be physically harmed. I may have been upset with JV (as well as my own husband) but looking back I understand some of the stuff I questioned. I've been apologized to by others while they idly stood by watching us get decimated. They felt bad they did nothing but saw what happened to us and didn't want the same for themselves. The difference is JV did go to usada on his own at the height of wonderboy's popularity. He was also the other anonymous rider who supported Frankie when Frankie confessed. Not one other teammate of Frankie's supported us. The only other cyclist who did was Greg the bitter nutjob known for his sour grapes.

Kathy and I thought there was safety in numbers - all of us who told the truth would be believed and that would be that. So stupid of us to think that. What JV learned from watching what happened to us was that he had to come out guns ablazing when the time was right. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess in the end, it all happened as it was supposed to and look at the result.

JV and RR's buddy are NOT in contact, not friends. JV was stupid enough as was I (my opinion) to give wonderboy a chance hoping that we could truly and really make amends. We were had. And I'm embarrassed by that.

When JV doped there was no usada, no wada. Could that be why he wasn't sanctioned along with the fact of his indepth and voluntarily cooperation on his own volition?
I agree with Aapajs's (sorry as I'm sure I got the name wrong) post.

There are other things I want to bring up in the book but I'll save that for another post.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

JV and I are having an affair so I'm deeply offended at all the invective. I was really hoping someone would see us arm in arm in Boulder in January but no one did. Anyway, Toronto was a way for us to be together that's why he was there. At my request. (He doesn't complain like Frankie and dresses way nicer.)

That said a couple of points....
I've been critical of him as I have Frankie. I don't think people realize just how it was living under the very real fear of wonderboy. I'm not whining merely stating a fact. You people don't realize the fear we lived with on a daily basis for years whether it be fear you're going to lose your job, fear you're going to be publicly destroyed or fear you might be physically harmed. I may have been upset with JV (as well as my own husband) but looking back I understand some of the stuff I questioned. I've been apologized to by others while they idly stood by watching us get decimated. They felt bad they did nothing but saw what happened to us and didn't want the same for themselves. The difference is JV did go to usada on his own at the height of wonderboy's popularity. He was also the other anonymous rider who supported Frankie when Frankie confessed. Not one other teammate of Frankie's supported us. The only other cyclist who did was Greg the bitter nutjob known for his sour grapes.

Kathy and I thought there was safety in numbers - all of us who told the truth would be believed and that would be that. So stupid of us to think that. What JV learned from watching what happened to us was that he had to come out guns ablazing when the time was right. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess in the end, it all happened as it was supposed to and look at the result.

JV and RR's buddy are NOT in contact, not friends. JV was stupid enough as was I (my opinion) to give wonderboy a chance hoping that we could truly and really make amends. We were had. And I'm embarrassed by that.

When JV doped there was no usada, no wada. Could that be why he wasn't sanctioned along with the fact of his indepth and voluntarily cooperation on his own volition?
I agree with Aapajs's (sorry as I'm sure I got the name wrong) post.

There are other things I want to bring up in the book but I'll save that for another post.

Hello elizab, what's your favorite race? and who is your fav rider right now?

 

[elizab]

Hello elizab, what's your favorite race? and who is your fav rider right now?

Paris-Roubaix and hands down Phil Gaimon.

 

[blackcat]

Hello elizab, what's your favorite race? and who is your fav rider right now?

thats easy. i will answer for betsy. the levi granfondo.

its a grand granfondo