Cycle of Lies

[Neworld]

I certainly don't wish any suffering on him. I am optimistic about humanity and think most people are redeemable.

multiple times in the book various friends and family members talk about how he really should seek help. This spans several decades. Ultimately he cuts these people out of his life.

In the end he still does not get it. Still trying to spin the narrative and paint Frankie, Betsy, and LeMond as evil. Nothing has changed

Nothing will change...because he is a sociopath. People, he is hard-wired to survive, alienate anyone and everyone if needed to get what HE wants and needs. He has no remorse, no social consciousness and never will. He has a mental illness.

If he had a fracture or cardiac issues he'd receive some form of physical or pharmacological therapy. Because his illness is inside his brain and psychological makeup it is unbelievably hard to treat, and, he will avoid any intervention with whatever means necessary.

As for his kids, if you read about his mental illness, they would be best suited far away from their Father.

My comments are not out of spite but are objective and practical. He is no Marco Pantani with demons and a substance abuse problem. He is his own problem that never appears on any radar. He is a sad and angry man, with a well documented Disorder. We should all stay away from him, and protect anyone around him.

 

[D-Queued]

Many of the details of the doping people here will already know but the personal stuff is really interesting.

After Landis dropped his bombs at the ToC. Hincapie tries to talk lance out of lying, says to him "Why don't you just admit?" ......Lance's response

Admit what?

Delusional

Then again, Lance might have realized that there were so many things he might admit to but that he had already lost count.

In that case:

Admit what = where do I start?



Dave.

 

[Granville57]

We don't know the kids situations and should leave them well out of any discussions for many reasons.

Period.

......

 

[Alpe73]

Probably the best thing for those kids is to not be around someone as toxic as him.

Despite the fact that this thread will generate some highly spirited banter, I believe your comment, like many of Armstrong's comments, crosses the line.

 

[elizab]

MI, as far as Travis offering deals...it should be noted (if it is, excuse the redundancy here) that all of the Garmin guys VOLUNTEERED to talk. George and Levi did NOT. Only when they were going to be given lifetime bans did they then talk. Sorry, but if you volunteered to talk and if you had to be threatened with a lifetime ban because you refused to talk that is a huge difference whether or not the rules for penalties take that into consideration.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

MI, as far as Travis offering deals...it should be noted (if it is, excuse the redundancy here) that all of the Garmin guys VOLUNTEERED to talk. George and Levi did NOT. Only when they were going to be given lifetime bans did they then talk. Sorry, but if you volunteered to talk and if you had to be threatened with a lifetime ban because you refused to talk that is a huge difference whether or not the rules for penalties take that into consideration.

Interesting.

I was under the impression that all the Gamin riders were approached by Federal investigators, and offered the opportunity to make statements to USADA as part of that process?

 

[Granville57]

The first transfusion was blood stored with del Moral, and Floyd suspected Armstrong might have purposely told del Moral to sabotage it.

If true, that would have to be, even by Armstrong's standards, one of the more despicable and nefarious acts of his entire career. Tyler had his suspicions about as much, and seemed to imply that Jan was also the victim of some blood bag tampering (although I believe that was more to do bags never reaching their destination). It really would make for an all-time low, IMO. Not to mention if del Moral himself was complicit. Absolutely disgusting if true.

As for the rest, I've studiously avoided reading other excerpts until I get the book myself.

lim thought Floyd was stronger naturally than Armstrong, and would have won ten TDFs if the race were clean.

I always knew it!

 

[mewmewmew13]

MI, as far as Travis offering deals...it should be noted (if it is, excuse the redundancy here) that all of the Garmin guys VOLUNTEERED to talk. George and Levi did NOT. Only when they were going to be given lifetime bans did they then talk. Sorry, but if you volunteered to talk and if you had to be threatened with a lifetime ban because you refused to talk that is a huge difference whether or not the rules for penalties take that into consideration.

I wish this was somehow made more public..
I really don't think most people realize this.

 

[Alpe73]

VOLUNTEERED.

Fifty shades of ...

 

[bobbins]

Interesting read. The players change but the game stays the same.

 

[Berzin]

I certainly don't wish any suffering on him. I am optimistic about humanity and think most people are redeemable.

RR, have you ever been around someone with a severe personality disorder, like a family member or a neighbor? Some people are beyond redemption, and for reasons that have nothing to do with a willingness or lack of to alter their behavior.

I'm not saying people can't change, but psychopathic behavior, bi-polar dysfunction, etc., is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

If someone is born with damage to the part of the brain that controls empathy, the result is an individual with problems such as lack or remorse, lack of conscience, etc.

If you've ever spent time around someone like this, you realize their brains are just wired differently and that there is definitely something missing that will always be missing.

The anti-social problems individuals like this suffer from cannot be cured. They can be controlled with a bit with medication, but usually the type that just dulls ones' senses.

I don't pity Armstrong over his upbringing. Children from poverty stricken backgrounds deal with issues one hundred times worse than he ever had it and the large majority don't develop the personality he has.

Redemption is not possible for Armstrong. He doesn't get it, he doesn't understand it. He doesn't comprehend the damage he did to people, and he doesn't care. And he never will.

 

[bewildered]

thanks for the heads up on this. I just bought it on ebook to read on phone. There does indeed appear to be a separate 'unabridged' longer version not officially released until next month I don't think.

 

[Alpe73]

is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

If you are speaking as a doctor, psychiatrist or some other scientist, you have my attention. If you're speaking as a lay person, your suspect analysis does little to further a point of discussion that merits more scientific accuracy.

 

[Big Doopie]

RR, have you ever been around someone with a severe personality disorder, like a family member or a neighbor? Some people are beyond redemption, and for reasons that have nothing to do with a willingness or lack of to alter their behavior.

I'm not saying people can't change, but psychopathic behavior, bi-polar dysfunction, etc., is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

If someone is born with damage to the part of the brain that controls empathy, the result is an individual with problems such as lack or remorse, lack of conscience, etc.

If you've ever spent time around someone like this, you realize their brains are just wired differently and that there is definitely something missing that will always be missing.

The anti-social problems individuals like this suffer from cannot be cured. They can be controlled with a bit with medication, but usually the type that just dulls ones' senses.

I don't pity Armstrong over his upbringing. Children from poverty stricken backgrounds deal with issues one hundred times worse than he ever had it and the large majority don't develop the personality he has.

Redemption is not possible for Armstrong. He doesn't get it, he doesn't understand it. He doesn't comprehend the damage he did to people, and he doesn't care. And he never will.

This and this again. There is no hope of any change whatsoever. Total sociopath.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I just downloaded this on my iPad this morning -- why does today have to keep on bringing so much work when I just want to read!

I did get through the part about his mom -- who must be exactly my age....

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

If you are speaking as a doctor, psychiatrist or some other scientist, you have my attention. If you're speaking as a lay person, your suspect analysis does little to further a point of discussion that merits more scientific accuracy.

Speaking as a lay person, I agree. Berzin is right. If you have ever been close to someone struggling with a mental illness, the first thing to understand is that you'll never really understand why they behave in certain ways. They just do because of a combination of brain chemistry, and learned behaviours.

He ain't changing and there will be no 'rebirth'. Just repeating the behaviours that are in his hard drive over and over because they worked in the past....

 

[Race Radio]

RR, have you ever been around someone with a severe personality disorder, like a family member or a neighbor? Some people are beyond redemption, and for reasons that have nothing to do with a willingness or lack of to alter their behavior.

I'm not saying people can't change, but psychopathic behavior, bi-polar dysfunction, etc., is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

If someone is born with damage to the part of the brain that controls empathy, the result is an individual with problems such as lack or remorse, lack of conscience, etc.

If you've ever spent time around someone like this, you realize their brains are just wired differently and that there is definitely something missing that will always be missing.

The anti-social problems individuals like this suffer from cannot be cured. They can be controlled with a bit with medication, but usually the type that just dulls ones' senses.

I don't pity Armstrong over his upbringing. Children from poverty stricken backgrounds deal with issues one hundred times worse than he ever had it and the large majority don't develop the personality he has.

Redemption is not possible for Armstrong. He doesn't get it, he doesn't understand it. He doesn't comprehend the damage he did to people, and he doesn't care. And he never will.

You make some good points. A couple of the key theme's of Juliet's book are that Lance clearly has multiple, serious, personality disorders. While she does not attempt to diagnose them it is not possible to read the book and without seeing there is a serious problem. It also appears that, like you say, he can't/won't change.

 

[SundayRider]

He clearly has all the social skills, just chooses to use them in a way different to most people.

 

[martinvickers]

You make some good points. A couple of the key theme's of Juliet's book are that Lance clearly has multiple, serious, personality disorders. While she does not attempt to diagnose them it is not possible to read the book and without seeing there is a serious problem. It also appears that, like you say, he can't/won't change.

Reading the book is, in some ways, quite bizarre.

My day job is law, and perhaps not surprisingly, I've read a good deal of crime biography, criminal psychology and criminology. Probably more than is good for me - especially since my actual work is not really in that field at all any more! But, you can't really help your interests...

I also read a lot of sport biography and history, a very different subset, Reading this book though, what hits me, like a brick, is that if you didn't know the direction the tale takes, you could so easily be reading a standard true crime biography, much more so than a sports book - which, in a way, I suppose you are.

The complete lack of empathy, the absurd entitlement, the constant anger and deviousness, the 'Kleenex' attitude to people ('use 'em up and throw them away), the superficial charisma, the 'father hatred', even, chillingly, the mother's lament to the LeMonds about her son's mentality. The VERY clear hints towards narcissistic and anti-social personality disorders (not illnesses, exactly) at the very least. The toxic parental combination - Linda - "you can do no wrong" - Armstrong - "you must win, and crush, at all costs".

Any time I read this kind of thing elsewhere, the 'patient' never changed. They just ended up locked up, often for something hideous.

You're almost grateful that Armstrong only killed a sport.

The disasters in pro cycling predated the arrival of Armstrong, and to at last some extent, survived his departure too. There is no shortage of some mentally damaged goods in the historical peleton (I'd put Bruyneel in that group for starters, Hein too possibly, and Pantani was a less frightening, but very difficult man). But ...

You know a sport has been seriously unlucky, when in the very moment it needs to right itself, address its problems post Festina, the man who arrives is this one.

I can't but think that every second the sport and its fans spend on him going forward now is just an unnecessary, nay harmful, obliging of his narcissism. Learn what we can, absolutely, and the book is another excellent part of that. But for the man himself? No, he's beyond help, and he's history. Let him be. Not least because, given the nature displayed in the book, could or would you really believe a word he told the Commission, regardless?

 

[Merckx index]

MI, as far as Travis offering deals...it should be noted (if it is, excuse the redundancy here) that all of the Garmin guys VOLUNTEERED to talk. George and Levi did NOT. Only when they were going to be given lifetime bans did they then talk. Sorry, but if you volunteered to talk and if you had to be threatened with a lifetime ban because you refused to talk that is a huge difference whether or not the rules for penalties take that into consideration.

Thanks for the info. To be clear, I was not judging the justness of any of the sanctions, just pointing out that according to Macur, George's complaint at least contributed to changing them. The Garmin riders cooperated, according to Macur, because JV assured them that they could without jeopardizing their positions on the team. Had they not had his backing, it’s not clear they would have come forward.

Anyway, since we are on that subject, those who have been squawking about how Armstrong was unfairly singled out should note that George and maybe Levi would have had the same lifetime ban if, like Armstrong, they had refused to talk. It's not as though it was solely about getting Armstrong by offering token bans to everyone else.

The one point Armstrong might make is that he didn't have as much time as GH. According to Macur, GH was given several months to decide. Whereas, according to the info available (interestingly, this is not discussed at all by Macur), Armstrong was given only a few days or maybe a couple of weeks. He should have known enough by then to know he had to talk or lose everything, but AFAIK he was not treated the same as everyone else in that respect. GH had to be given time, because his testimony was essential to getting LA. Once Tygart had that testimony, and that of the others, he didn’t want to wait around for LA to decide.

psychopathic behavior, bi-polar dysfunction, etc., is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

In extreme cases, yes. The problem is that psychopathic behavior, like most any other kind, occurs on a spectrum. Depending on your definition, a significant % of the population is psychopathic—some claim that many CEOs, doctors, and other members of certain professions are psychopaths. Are all of these individuals the result of the same brain pathology? We don’t know. Studies have only been done on a few really bad cases, the kind of individuals who end up in prison for murder. I posted a link a couple of years ago in the Politics thread about some studies of this kind.

I don’t know for sure, but I don't think LA falls into this extreme class. He’s never going to be a very compassionate guy, but that doesn’t mean he can’t modify his behavior if he can be convinced that it’s in his best interest to do so. After all, as I understand it, he lacked the motivation to focus very hard on training until after cancer. That experience clearly changed him. His current crisis could also change him.

All his energy now is focused on anger and hate towards the people he thinks have ruined his life. Since he has lot of energy, and the ability to focus very powerfully, his emotions are just eating him up inside. He needs another outlet. That used to be supplied by competition. That is the only therapy he knows. I suggested before here that he would be far better off emotionally if he could compete in triathlons, and in the book, a psychologist who was talking to Tygart made the same point. But that seems to be out, and since competition also brings out the worst in him in some respects, I think he should try to find something else. Something he has to work very hard at it, something he can take enormous pride in doing, but which does not involve being better than others, at least not in the competitive sense in which someone wins only at the expense of someone else losing.

He does have good organizational skills. He had to in order for his team to build such a sophisticated doping program. If he could find another, legal and ethical, outlet for these skills, I believe he could become a very productive member of society. But he can’t be in a position where he has a lot of direct power over other people’s lives, and his energy needs to be focussed away from himself as the center of everything (as it tended to be in Livestrong). He needs to redefine winning in terms of solving problems that are beyond his own personal enrichment. That's not going to be easy, but I think it is his best hope.

is this a fantasy? Maybe, but ask yourself this: Suppose he had been born twenty years sooner, and raced in an era where drugs did not have such potent effects on the outcome. In that environment, he would not have been able to cheat to the extent that he did. Assuming he had some talent at least as a one day racer, he might have carved out a respectable career, and his recovery of cancer would still have been inspirational, without the TDF wins. He might still have been a pr!ck and odious to many who knew him, maybe made a mess of personal and family relationships, but there have been other athletes like that. The point is that in a different environment, his behavior would have been far more tolerable, far less destructive.

 

[blackcat]

merckx wut about runnin 4 POTUS?

 

[aphronesis]

RR, have you ever been around someone with a severe personality disorder, like a family member or a neighbor? Some people are beyond redemption, and for reasons that have nothing to do with a willingness or lack of to alter their behavior.

I'm not saying people can't change, but psychopathic behavior, bi-polar dysfunction, etc., is a result of altered brain chemistry and what I would refer to as frontal lobe issues.

If someone is born with damage to the part of the brain that controls empathy, the result is an individual with problems such as lack or remorse, lack of conscience, etc.

If you've ever spent time around someone like this, you realize their brains are just wired differently and that there is definitely something missing that will always be missing.

The anti-social problems individuals like this suffer from cannot be cured. They can be controlled with a bit with medication, but usually the type that just dulls ones' senses.

I don't pity Armstrong over his upbringing. Children from poverty stricken backgrounds deal with issues one hundred times worse than he ever had it and the large majority don't develop the personality he has.

Redemption is not possible for Armstrong. He doesn't get it, he doesn't understand it. He doesn't comprehend the damage he did to people, and he doesn't care. And he never will.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Granville57]

Some people are beyond redemption, and for reasons that have nothing to do with a willingness or lack of to alter their behavior.<snipped>

Very good post, Berzin. If anyone wants to explore this topic further, with professional and qualified verification of many of these points, this is well worth your time:

A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

 

[Berzin]

thanks for the heads up on this. I just bought it on ebook to read on phone. There does indeed appear to be a separate 'unabridged' longer version not officially released until next month I don't think.

Is this true for the Kindle version only or the hardcover edition also?

I'm interested in buying the book today, but not if there is another version that will not be available for another month or so.

 

[jam pants]

I'm only a few chapters in, but the book is revelatory and, so far, an engaging read (I read The Secret Race, but skipped Wheelmen, for context).

Linda's already coming off in a poor light.

It looks like the topic has been broached, but Marcur is painting a picture of a person with a diagnosable personality disorder. Enablers all around, because everyone stood to gain if Armstrong bullied his way up the ranks.

Based on the first few chapters, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear anything with regard to his behavior. He seems capable of turning on any person who's less than 100% dedicated to helping him pursue his goals. Also, one gets the impression that Armstrong went the bully route because he recognized (to the point of frustration) that his intellect wouldn't carry him far.