Cycle of Lies

[MarkvW]

Thanks for the info. To be clear, I was not judging the justness of any of the sanctions, just pointing out that according to Macur, George's complaint at least contributed to changing them. The Garmin riders cooperated, according to Macur, because JV assured them that they could without jeopardizing their positions on the team. Had they not had his backing, it’s not clear they would have come forward.

Anyway, since we are on that subject, those who have been squawking about how Armstrong was unfairly singled out should note that George and maybe Levi would have had the same lifetime ban if, like Armstrong, they had refused to talk. It's not as though it was solely about getting Armstrong by offering token bans to everyone else.

The one point Armstrong might make is that he didn't have as much time as GH. According to Macur, GH was given several months to decide. Whereas, according to the info available (interestingly, this is not discussed at all by Macur), Armstrong was given only a few days or maybe a couple of weeks. He should have known enough by then to know he had to talk or lose everything, but AFAIK he was not treated the same as everyone else in that respect. GH had to be given time, because his testimony was essential to getting LA. Once Tygart had that testimony, and that of the others, he didn’t want to wait around for LA to decide.



In extreme cases, yes. The problem is that psychopathic behavior, like most any other kind, occurs on a spectrum. Depending on your definition, a significant % of the population is psychopathic—some claim that many CEOs, doctors, and other members of certain professions are psychopaths. Are all of these individuals the result of the same brain pathology? We don’t know. Studies have only been done on a few really bad cases, the kind of individuals who end up in prison for murder. I posted a link a couple of years ago in the Politics thread about some studies of this kind.

I don’t know for sure, but I don't think LA falls into this extreme class. He’s never going to be a very compassionate guy, but that doesn’t mean he can’t modify his behavior if he can be convinced that it’s in his best interest to do so. After all, as I understand it, he lacked the motivation to focus very hard on training until after cancer. That experience clearly changed him. His current crisis could also change him.

All his energy now is focused on anger and hate towards the people he thinks have ruined his life. Since he has lot of energy, and the ability to focus very powerfully, his emotions are just eating him up inside. He needs another outlet. That used to be supplied by competition. That is the only therapy he knows. I suggested before here that he would be far better off emotionally if he could compete in triathlons, and in the book, a psychologist who was talking to Tygart made the same point. But that seems to be out, and since competition also brings out the worst in him in some respects, I think he should try to find something else. Something he has to work very hard at it, something he can take enormous pride in doing, but which does not involve being better than others, at least not in the competitive sense in which someone wins only at the expense of someone else losing.

He does have good organizational skills. He had to in order for his team to build such a sophisticated doping program. If he could find another, legal and ethical, outlet for these skills, I believe he could become a very productive member of society. But he can’t be in a position where he has a lot of direct power over other people’s lives, and his energy needs to be focussed away from himself as the center of everything (as it tended to be in Livestrong). He needs to redefine winning in terms of solving problems that are beyond his own personal enrichment. That's not going to be easy, but I think it is his best hope.

is this a fantasy? Maybe, but ask yourself this: Suppose he had been born twenty years sooner, and raced in an era where drugs did not have such potent effects on the outcome. In that environment, he would not have been able to cheat to the extent that he did. Assuming he had some talent at least as a one day racer, he might have carved out a respectable career, and his recovery of cancer would still have been inspirational, without the TDF wins. He might still have been a pr!ck and odious to many who knew him, maybe made a mess of personal and family relationships, but there have been other athletes like that. The point is that in a different environment, his behavior would have been far more tolerable, far less destructive.

Funny. I just read the novel 'Spider Kiss' by Harlan Ellison. The story's protagonist makes a similar conclusion at the end of the book (after interacting with and enabling a very degenerate rock n' roll star).

 

[therhodeo]

The whole saga reminds me alot of Goodfella's.

 

[Benotti69]

The whole saga reminds me alot of Goodfella's.

Which one is Armstrong? Henry Hill, Jimmy Conway, Tommy DeVito?

 

[GuyIncognito]

Which one is Armstrong? Henry Hill, Jimmy Conway, Tommy DeVito?

Jimmy. He tries to turn on his buddies at the end.

Henry is George, he gets away with it. Tommy is Landis, he's got a big mouth and ends up dead and buried way before the end.

 

[therhodeo]

Which one is Armstrong? Henry Hill, Jimmy Conway, Tommy DeVito?

Jimmy the Gent - Armstrong

I'm torn on the rest though. Hill could be Hincapie since he talked and ended up getting off way easier than he should have. Also that he is still seen as somewhat of a good guy despite him just being a coward. Floyd would be Tommy given that he went off script with that win. Johan would be Pauly. Levi, I don't know. Maybe Jimmy's wife or something.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Really looking forward to when this book hits the shelves here in the states, anyone have a US release date?

Read "Seven Deadly Sins", I wasn't that impresed with it.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Really looking forward to when this book hits the shelves here in the states, anyone have a US release date?

Read "Seven Deadly Sins", I wasn't that impresed with it.

the print edition..not sure what does Amazon say? I just got the kindle version for my iPad

 

[Race Radio]

after reading the book it is pretty clear the dude should have hired $1,000 per hour therapists instead of $1,000 per hour lawyers

 

[mewmewmew13]

after reading the book it is pretty clear the dude should have hired $1,000 per hour therapists instead of $1,000 per hour lawyers

pretty sure he doesn't think he's a candidate for therapy..the rest of us are

'DaNile' runs deep in his mind

 

[aphronesis]

pretty sure he doesn't think he's a candidate for therapy..the rest of us are

'DaNile' runs deep in his mind

But you don't think so? And I ask this in earnestness and in. re. Merckx' relatively accurate post above: so why carry on thinking and commenting about it? Historical record? Need to redress excessive wrongs? Or minor pathologies as a homogenous condition?

The more facts and interviews that come to light; the more depressing. But so what? That doesn't address the underlying conditions that enable them.

 

[Alpe73]

Thanks for the info. To be clear, I was not judging the justness of any of the sanctions, just pointing out that according to Macur, George's complaint at least contributed to changing them. The Garmin riders cooperated, according to Macur, because JV assured them that they could without jeopardizing their positions on the team. Had they not had his backing, it’s not clear they would have come forward.

Anyway, since we are on that subject, those who have been squawking about how Armstrong was unfairly singled out should note that George and maybe Levi would have had the same lifetime ban if, like Armstrong, they had refused to talk. It's not as though it was solely about getting Armstrong by offering token bans to everyone else.

The one point Armstrong might make is that he didn't have as much time as GH. According to Macur, GH was given several months to decide. Whereas, according to the info available (interestingly, this is not discussed at all by Macur), Armstrong was given only a few days or maybe a couple of weeks. He should have known enough by then to know he had to talk or lose everything, but AFAIK he was not treated the same as everyone else in that respect. GH had to be given time, because his testimony was essential to getting LA. Once Tygart had that testimony, and that of the others, he didn’t want to wait around for LA to decide.



In extreme cases, yes. The problem is that psychopathic behavior, like most any other kind, occurs on a spectrum. Depending on your definition, a significant % of the population is psychopathic—some claim that many CEOs, doctors, and other members of certain professions are psychopaths. Are all of these individuals the result of the same brain pathology? We don’t know. Studies have only been done on a few really bad cases, the kind of individuals who end up in prison for murder. I posted a link a couple of years ago in the Politics thread about some studies of this kind.

I don’t know for sure, but I don't think LA falls into this extreme class. He’s never going to be a very compassionate guy, but that doesn’t mean he can’t modify his behavior if he can be convinced that it’s in his best interest to do so. After all, as I understand it, he lacked the motivation to focus very hard on training until after cancer. That experience clearly changed him. His current crisis could also change him.

All his energy now is focused on anger and hate towards the people he thinks have ruined his life. Since he has lot of energy, and the ability to focus very powerfully, his emotions are just eating him up inside. He needs another outlet. That used to be supplied by competition. That is the only therapy he knows. I suggested before here that he would be far better off emotionally if he could compete in triathlons, and in the book, a psychologist who was talking to Tygart made the same point. But that seems to be out, and since competition also brings out the worst in him in some respects, I think he should try to find something else. Something he has to work very hard at it, something he can take enormous pride in doing, but which does not involve being better than others, at least not in the competitive sense in which someone wins only at the expense of someone else losing.

He does have good organizational skills. He had to in order for his team to build such a sophisticated doping program. If he could find another, legal and ethical, outlet for these skills, I believe he could become a very productive member of society. But he can’t be in a position where he has a lot of direct power over other people’s lives, and his energy needs to be focussed away from himself as the center of everything (as it tended to be in Livestrong). He needs to redefine winning in terms of solving problems that are beyond his own personal enrichment. That's not going to be easy, but I think it is his best hope.

is this a fantasy? Maybe, but ask yourself this: Suppose he had been born twenty years sooner, and raced in an era where drugs did not have such potent effects on the outcome. In that environment, he would not have been able to cheat to the extent that he did. Assuming he had some talent at least as a one day racer, he might have carved out a respectable career, and his recovery of cancer would still have been inspirational, without the TDF wins. He might still have been a pr!ck and odious to many who knew him, maybe made a mess of personal and family relationships, but there have been other athletes like that. The point is that in a different environment, his behavior would have been far more tolerable, far less destructive.

'Balance' is good (not to mention some vitamin D and a coupla yoga mats) for this thread. Decent post.

 

[Granville57]

There's been some talk in this thread about LA's dysfunctional upbringing, and how that may have shaped him. You want to know who's childhood I would never wish on anybody?

Bill Strickland from Bicycling Magazine.

I read his book Ten Points when it came out. He is brutally honest about his own upbringing, his alcoholic and grotesquely abusive father, as well as his own personal transgressions later in life.

Even though I've often been a vocal critique of Strickland's love affair with Lance, I have nothing but respect for the guy as a person, someone who was able to overcome his horrid childhood and, by all accounts, lead a normal life without trying to destroy others.

I'd be willing to bet that Lance was never subjected to some of what Bill Strickland had to endure.

So that's one less excuse for Armstrong to use to justify himself (should he ever chose that path in the search for sympathy).

 

[mewmewmew13]

There's been some talk in this thread about LA's dysfunctional upbringing, and how that may have shaped him. You want to know who's childhood I would never wish on anybody?

Bill Strickland from Bicycling Magazine.

I read his book Ten Points when it came out. He is brutally honest about his own upbringing, his alcoholic and grotesquely abusive father, as well as his own personal transgressions later in life.

Even though I've often been a vocal critique of Strickland's love affair with Lance, I have nothing but respect for the guy as a person, someone who was able to overcome his horrid childhood and, by all accounts, lead a normal life without trying to destroy others.

I'd be willing to bet that Lance was never subjected to some of what Bill Strickland had to endure.

So that's one less excuse for Armstrong to use to justify himself (should he ever chose that path in the search for sympathy).

After reading the first few chapters of Lies I heartily agree..Lance and his mom seemed to do a good job in fabricating their 'horrible' and 'insurmountable' struggles in his childhood.
All in all, while he had some 'issues' , it really doesn't seem to shake out like we were all led to believe.

Strickland according to your comments is the real winner in overcoming adversity to become a decent human being.
thanx

 

[tofino]

Lim part?

I'd like to see the Lim part. Remember he built his rep "helping" Floyd and than ran for cover when Floyd got popped. Resurfaced with WonderBoy in the comeback. Its terrible thats he's still around riders in Colorado.

- Floyd

Interesting stuff about Floyd, pretty ciear lim was helping him dope. And it says Prentice Steffen suggested the whistlebiower iawsuit, whiie Fioyd was still riding, even before he had "won" the TDF, as a way of getting back at Armstrong. lim felt Floyd suffered from bipolar disorder, his former teammates reportedly had bets on when he would commit suicide. He had a Ricco moment, got sick from bad transfusion, but instead of going to the ER, he took another transfusion. The first transfusion was blood stored with del Moral, and Floyd suspected Armstrong might have purposely told del Moral to sabotage it.

lim thought Floyd was stronger naturally than Armstrong, and would have won ten TDFs if the race were clean.

 

[Jeremiah]

after reading the book it is pretty clear the dude should have hired $1,000 per hour therapists instead of $1,000 per hour lawyers

You knew he was nuts in the late 80's.

The only thing that changed was his level of fame/infamy.

 

[Benotti69]

I'd like to see the Lim part. Remember he built his rep "helping" Floyd and than ran for cover when Floyd got popped. Resurfaced with WonderBoy in the comeback. Its terrible thats he's still around riders in Colorado.

Tyler Phinney trains(ed) with Lim in Colorado in 2013.

 

[Stingray34]

The book is incredibly detailed - by far the most 'behind the scenes' of any of the Armstrong accounts to date. There appears to be a couple of minor inconsistencies so far, most to do with timelines, etc., but are more editorial than content based.

The chapter on DZ is especially harrowing. Far, far more detailed than his affadavit.

We all know the doping stories, the lying, the cheating, the deception, the manipulation, the insidiousness, the bloody-minded viciousness, but I've never seen such a collection of anecdotes that portrays LA to be such a terminal headcase. His upbringing was more skewed than impoverished ("what teenage Lance wanted, Lance got,"), except at an emotional level. An apologist mother and win-at-all-costs adoptive father, added to his natural dispositions bred a toxic combination.

After the storm and all is lost (the same as death to Lance), Armstrong still can't stop blaming others:

Sheryl Crow...was just one of Armstrong's many female partners who allegedly knew about his doping but kept quiet about it. "How could any of them miss it?" Armstrong said to me. "For God's sake the EPO was right there next to the butter".

After aggressively denying doping for so many years, Armstrong now feels justified in castigating anyone who knew the truth, or should have known.

 

[blackcat]

but the DZ anecdote, this would contradict the Matt Decanio StolenUnderground fame anecdote.

I wont buy a DZ anecdote.

 

[blackcat]

After the storm and all is lost (the same as death to Lance), Armstrong still can't stop blaming others:

or gunderson

 

[Stingray34]

but the DZ anecdote, this would contradict the Matt Decanio StolenUnderground fame anecdote.

I wont buy a DZ anecdote.

I don't know that one...DeCanio and DZ's teenage desire for fame are mentioned. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[blackcat]

I don't know that one...DeCanio and DZ's teenage desire for fame are mentioned. Can you point me in the right direction?

training camp, DZ had hypodermics fall out of a shoulderbag.

It does sound in the realm of the apocryphal. But an anecdote about Armstrong pressuring you and ccrying remembering your promise to your dead dad and then winning a 20km prologue for Riis at CSC.

Neither imo, are accurate. And I lean to a de Canio narrative.

you dont stay in cycling for a decade on teams like CSC and USPS without being a complicit partner in cyclings culture

 

[Stingray34]

training camp, DZ had hypodermics fall out of a shoulderbag.

It does sound in the realm of the apocryphal. But an anecdote about Armstrong pressuring you and ccrying remembering your promise to your dead dad and then winning a 20km prologue for Riis at CSC.

Neither imo, are accurate. And I lean to a de Canio narrative.

you dont stay in cycling for a decade on teams like CSC and USPS without being a complicit partner in cyclings culture

Yeah, DZ did become a regular user. According to Macur's book, he was holding out for pay rise for 05 because he had won a Vuelta stage, but JB knocked him back, citing USPS sticking by him after being hit by a SUV. He complained to Steve Johnson about acquiescing to needles, but got the cold shoulder off him as well.

It's mentioned that the constant IV microdosing lead to junkie trackmarks, so riders would always wear long sleeves. I've always wondered about that, and that it never showed during Summer. Macur does mention large scars on LA's palms (unsure if inside or back of hands). He claims they're cysts, but could they be places to find a vein and hidden under gloves?

 

[blackcat]

Yeah, DZ did become a regular user. According to Macur's book, he was holding out for pay rise for 05 because he had won a Vuelta stage, but JB knocked him back, citing USPS sticking by him after being hit by a SUV. He complained to Steve Johnson about acquiescing to needles, but got the cold shoulder off him as well.

It's mentioned that the constant IV microdosing lead to junkie trackmarks, so riders would always wear long sleeves. I've always wondered about that, and that it never showed during Summer. Macur does mention large scars on LA's palms (unsure if inside or back of hands). He claims they're cysts, but could they be places to find a vein and hidden under gloves?

fall out of bag (at jnr/espoir training camp in US).

so the anecdote went.

I dont think you win that breakaway stage he did in Vuelta, on bread and water. I reckon DZ is bs, like JV and the tribe.

but i dont trust deCanio too

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah, DZ did become a regular user. According to Macur's book, he was holding out for pay rise for 05 because he had won a Vuelta stage, but JB knocked him back, citing USPS sticking by him after being hit by a SUV. He complained to Steve Johnson about acquiescing to needles, but got the cold shoulder off him as well.

It's mentioned that the constant IV microdosing lead to junkie trackmarks, so riders would always wear long sleeves. I've always wondered about that, and that it never showed during Summer. Macur does mention large scars on LA's palms (unsure if inside or back of hands). He claims they're cysts, but could they be places to find a vein and hidden under gloves?

I thought the black socks were worn because he was infusing/injecting down there and black wouldn't show any blood???

 

[blackcat]

Macur means stigmata.

Cancer Jesus.

its metaphors stoopidz