Cycling is entering a clean chapter, says Phil Liggett

[Race Radio]

Well, going on why Harmon was fired, dumb is a step in the right direction.

He wasn't fired, he has been suffering from depression and took some time off

 

[martinvickers]

That would depend on which street you are walking down.

I don't think I can say publicly, I think CN legal would have a meltdown.

Are you suggesting he started making comments in his commentary?

 

[Ferminal]

LOL. The kids coming through. Yeah.

This generation is going to be on PEDs, the next generation too, and future generations as well. That's the nature of competitive athletic endeavors with paychecks.

You can't be content with being a bottle carrier in a Continental team if you want to make a living cycling.

Pretty sure you can carry bottles clean in the WT if you're good enough. Although the hardest part of that is to be good enough to stand out amongst the U23 dopers. Also if you're a bottle carrier you're kind of expendable especially when you've only been around a couple of years. So to be a decade long one you may have to "prove" yourself for a few years and then use that experience to be an elite bottle carrier (e.g. Grischa Niermann).

 

[Benotti69]

LOL. The kids coming through. Yeah.

This generation is going to be on PEDs, the next generation too, and future generations as well. That's the nature of competitive athletic endeavors with paychecks.

You can't be content with being a bottle carrier in a Continental team if you want to make a living cycling.

Bottle carriers have to dope to keep up with their team leaders in order to deliver bottles.

 

[blackcat]

Bottle carriers have to dope to keep up with their team leaders in order to deliver bottles.

if levi was french and called le vi le hypehimie, would he be christened with the nick "bidon"?

 

[wirral]

The word journalist in relation to sports reporting needs to be redefined into two separate categories.

You can have a commentator like Liggett who is in a symbiotic relationship with the UCI, the teams, the riders. The relationship is so close and the benefits so great for each other that the relationship could be described as an obligate one in which both sides need the other to survive and flourish.

The other type of journalist is an investigate journalist like Walsh, exposing the sport's dirty secrets that it tries to keep hidden from the paying public.

Since the two types of journalist have roles which are antagonistic, it is an impossible act to try to do both successfully and with integrity at the same time.

In this particular case, we can see Liggett spends a lot of his time simply PR-ing professional road racing. Once you accept the above, then you can pretty much ignore his comments as rhetoric and you may come to the conclusion that it is slightly unfair for commentators to be placed in the position of having to comment on negative aspects of the sport.

 

[blackcat]

The word journalist in relation to sports reporting needs to be redefined into two separate categories.

You can have a commentator like Liggett who is in a symbiotic relationship with the UCI, the teams, the riders. The relationship is so close and the benefits so great for each other that the relationship could be described as an obligate one in which both sides need the other to survive and flourish.

The other type of journalist is an investigate journalist like Walsh, exposing the sport's dirty secrets that it tries to keep hidden from the paying public.

Since the two types of journalist have roles which are antagonistic, it is an impossible act to try to do both successfully and with integrity at the same time.

In this particular case, we can see Liggett spends a lot of his time simply PR-ing professional road racing. Once you accept the above, then you can pretty much ignore his comments as rhetoric and you may come to the conclusion that it is slightly unfair for commentators to be placed in the position of having to comment on negative aspects of the sport.

sorry Walsh has been captured by lucre

 

[Benotti69]

sorry Walsh has been captured by lucre

Walsh now a Ligget, who would've thought............

 

[Arnout]

He wasn't fired, he has been suffering from depression and took some time off

For someone being so petty about remaining anonymous you're remarkably candid about sharing personal details of others

 

[Race Radio]

For someone being so petty about remaining anonymous you're remarkably candid about sharing personal details of others

He was public about it, hardly a secret.....unfortunately there is a bit more to it but as that part is not public

 

[gooner]

Harmon's situation was fairly well known at the time.

Good to see him back doing the Rotterdam 6 day race.

 

[Arnout]

Ok, fair enough, statement retracted then.

 

[oldcrank]

Harmon's situation was fairly well known at the time.
Good to see him back doing the Rotterdam 6 day race.

Yes, Mr. Harmon and Anthony Doyle MBE provided top-notch
commentary at Rotterdam. Hopefully there will be a Six in the
UK in the next year or two.

 

[Master50]

Bottle carriers have to dope to keep up with their team leaders in order to deliver bottles.

Bottle carriers don't exist at least that is far from their job description. Peter Sagan carries bottles as does Mark Cavendish or any rider that is not the team leader at the moment.
Even if you are a worker bee your job is not bottle carrier it is worker bee. That can include riding tempo or going out on an early break.
I personally think that while these guys might need some added help they are also the same guys with no money for it even on pro tour teams and forget it on continental teams. those guys barely get any money at all. lets see you support a doping program on a $1000.00/month salary.
As for mr Ligget he is an announcer, ex UCI commissaire and marginal bike rider. he represents the voice of cycling for decades and I think he is near the end of his skills as he makes more and more mistakes on air. What else is he going to do but defend the sport? I know there is a cadre of the unbelieving here in the clinic but he is not out of touch with reality in terms of his opinion but he definitely is an optimist and I think he is correct that the peloton is clearly shown signs of honest abilities. At least it does in my eyes and I have been playing and working in the sport since 1986. I get that at least in the clinic I have a minority view of the state of doping but I cannot agree with the more vociferous denizens of the clinic that all is dirty. The last 2 years I have not worked very much in the sport but everything looks like the cleanest racing I have seen since I was in cat 5.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Bottle carriers don't exist at least that is far from their job description. Peter Sagan carries bottles as does Mark Cavendish or any rider that is not the team leader at the moment.
Even if you are a worker bee your job is not bottle carrier it is worker bee. That can include riding tempo or going out on an early break.

It's just a term - don't take it so literally. They do, in fact, carry water bottles, and any clown realises Benotti et al are not talking about Mark Cavendish or Peter Sagan.

I personally think that while these guys might need some added help they are also the same guys with no money for it even on pro tour teams and forget it on continental teams. those guys barely get any money at all. lets see you support a doping program on a $1000.00/month salary.

The women get that - pretty sure the minimum wage for men is more. You also seem to be forgetting the riders that come from well off families. People like Vaughters, or Millar, for instance.

As for mr Ligget he is an announcer, ex UCI commissaire and marginal bike rider. he represents the voice of cycling for decades and I think he is near the end of his skills as he makes more and more mistakes on air. What else is he going to do but defend the sport? I know there is a cadre of the unbelieving here in the clinic but he is not out of touch with reality in terms of his opinion but he definitely is an optimist and I think he is correct that the peloton is clearly shown signs of honest abilities.

Mr Liggett is an Armstrong apologist / defender the likes of which are only rivaled by an elite few, including "Never, never, never" Heinie Verdruggen.

Liggett gets paid to say things. The better those things are, the more likely he gets to keep his job - of saying things.

Like Walsh gets paid to write things, and the better they are, the more likely he gets to keep his job - of writing things.

Those things that are said or written do not have to be demonstrably true, just good enough to be convincing to enough people.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

...
he definitely is an optimist and I think he is correct that the peloton is clearly shown signs of honest abilities. At least it does in my eyes and I have been playing and working in the sport since 1986. I get that at least in the clinic I have a minority view of the state of doping but I cannot agree with the more vociferous denizens of the clinic that all is dirty. The last 2 years I have not worked very much in the sport but everything looks like the cleanest racing I have seen since I was in cat 5.

Did you ever meet a doper, see someone dope, learn of a doper post-race (that you competed in) victory, or race against dopers?

 

[Ferminal]

Minimum at WT is E30k for a neo and E36k for others. I'd say very few are actually on the minimum (maybe more this season), especially neos who if they are any good are able to let the bids flow.

 

[42x16ss]

Bottle carriers have to dope to keep up with their team leaders in order to deliver bottles.

A few years ago, sure, but not any more and you know it. Bassons was good enough to carry bottles for Festina at the TdF in the mid-late 90's and he was clean as they come. Didn't stop him getting shelled out the back but there was always others doing worse. The "super domestiques" on the other hand... I'm in total agreement.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A few years ago, sure, but not any more and you know it. Bassons was good enough to carry bottles for Festina at the TdF in the mid-late 90's and he was clean as they come.

Bassons VO2max is reportedly 85 - kinda no wonder he could carry bottles innit?

 

[42x16ss]

Bassons VO2max is reportedly 85 - kinda no wonder he could carry bottles innit?

And Greg Lemond's is reportedly low to mid 90's, so surely there will be a few others in between. Climbing speeds have also dropped slightly but noticeably since the mid/late 90's so you'd think that the best guys are getting away with less ridiculousness than back then.

Of course you still won't win anything noteworthy clean these days but if you're happy being an ok watercarrier I see no reason to say it's impossible to ride WT clean.

 

[Master50]

Did you ever meet a doper, see someone dope, learn of a doper post-race (that you competed in) victory, or race against dopers?

Yes to each of those questions. I love to ride my bike and when I raced I loved to do that too. my experience had nothing to do with those people and truly I hardly cared at the time. I certainly *****ed about it. The most blatant cheaters I regularly encountered were the sandbaggers. Guys too lazy to train for Cat 1 or 2 but are Cat 1 ability that race in lower category races. Some might say it is the same thing as the effect of dopers in the pack but these guys are not actually breaking any rules. They are certainly damaging the experience of the true cat 4s, 3s, ands 2s. Those guys really p'd me off.

 

[Ferminal]

Climbing speeds have also dropped slightly but noticeably since the mid/late 90's..

Pseudoscientist!

 

[ustabe]

I don't have the facts to determine whether Mr. Liggett is right or wrong, but I'm sure my sources are no worse than his. Either way, he's a little late to the party. I guess that's what's called "leading from behind."

 

[VeloFidelis]

Bottle carriers have to dope to keep up with their team leaders in order to deliver bottles.

If you accept the fact that it has always been that way, and that the acceleration in both process and detection in the last two decades, has put cycling at the highest level, where it is today... then you have to make a choice. Either continue to be a fan, or just walk away and go ride your bike.

The art of detection is never going to overtake the art of enhancement, and athletes competing for fame and fortune are not going to suddenly find a collective moral compass. All sport should be viewed for it's entertainment value, and athletes appreciated for their genetic advantages, enhanced or not. The athlete as a role model, with a very few exceptions, is pretty pathetic.

Moral character, or the lack there of, is one the few things that athletes and their fans have in common. If the motivations of society in general are any indication, why would you ever expect cycling to become clean, or even just cleaner, by any measurable standard?

 

[hfer07]

Are people still listening to Liggett at all??