Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

As has been said here many times before (much better than I can do) the kind of strategy that Sky has chosen to follow (right from the start) is dependent on other peoples silence (if not outright cooperation) to work. Outwardly you weave a web of plausible lies, inwardly you promise that everything will continue as before. Once there is a crack on either side of the dam, you are done for.

Yeah, but the story is playing brilliantly to date. Until VERY recently, no one was writing about BC/Sky's role. Twelve paranoid Clinic participants posting from their parent's basement were the only doubters.

Brailsford can still get clear of this one pretty easily. He can do like so many other dopers, COUGH Chris Carmichael COUGH and "coach." It's the bad athlete's fault.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

As has been said here many times before (much better than I can do) the kind of strategy that Sky has chosen to follow (right from the start) is dependent on other peoples silence (if not outright cooperation) to work. Outwardly you weave a web of plausible lies, inwardly you promise that everything will continue as before. Once there is a crack on either side of the dam, you are done for.

Yeah, but the story is playing brilliantly to date. Until VERY recently, no one was writing about BC/Sky's role. Twelve paranoid Clinic participants posting from their parent's basement were the only doubters.

Brailsford can still get clear of this one pretty easily. He can do like so many other dopers, COUGH Chris Carmichael COUGH and "coach." It's the bad athlete's fault.

Dangerous game to play for Brailsford. Unless he gets financial backing to silence others, some will be well peed off if Sir Bradley Wiggins, most decorated Olympian in British history gets hung out to dry. If Brailsford throws Wiggins under the bus the knives might come out for Sir Dave.

Wiggins is also a potential Landis. He has been inside GB cycling since '02? Maybe longer. Wiggins knows a lot, a hell of a lot.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Is it me, or did Sir Dave look as much like a human X-ray in that BBC interview as his riders do?

He's such a perfectionist that he tests out all the PEDs on himself before the riders get to. Kind of like Salazar with his son at Nike.

Or Doc Fuentes or even Michele Ferrari's kids.

i think this is par for the course for every self respecting doping team.
the most important role for soigneurs and other staff is to fix and test PEDs.
after all, there isn't much literature on the workings of those substances, as most 'sports scientists' are too busy pretending PEDs don't exist.
Team Sky is one of most elucidating cases in point.
There's not a single staff member who hasn't been in contact with dope prior to working for sky.

One wonders if these experiments ever go wrong ?

Leinders was brought into Team Sky on a freelance basis in 2010 after the death of soigneur Txema Gonzalez during the 2010 Tour of Spain (Vuelta a España). The 43-year-old Spaniard died from septic shock after contracting a bacterial infection, his illness coinciding with an unrelated virus that swept through the team’s riders.

The team withdrew from the race following the death of Gonzalez. Brailsford later said that the team’s original policy of employing only doctors from the United Kingdom who had no connection with road cycling in Europe left it ill-prepared to deal with some medical problems.

I got slammed once for suggesting there might have been more to Txema's death than just an unfortunate infection.

The Vuelta/Txema episode always smelled like PEDs gone wrong. It stands to reason that, now that the truth about Sky is slowly getting out, the episode will at some point need to be re-examined.

 

[Chaddy]

Do Sky now have the power to change autopsy reports?

 

[sniper]

what autopsy report?

 

[Chaddy]

Surely he would have had an autopsy done for a sudden death which would have shown his passing was down to more than an infection?

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Surely he would have had an autopsy done for a sudden death which would have shown his passing was down to more than an infection?

I would have thought so, certainly in the UK anyone who died in such circumstances would be subject to an autopsy.

 

[Escarabajo]

DB will never throw Bradley Wiggins under the bus. I think everyone learned their lesson from the Landis saga.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Surely he would have had an autopsy done for a sudden death which would have shown his passing was down to more than an infection?

I would have thought so, certainly in the UK anyone who died in such circumstances would be subject to an autopsy.

most definitely. I'm just asking chaddy whether he's seen the report and knows what's in it.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Surely he would have had an autopsy done for a sudden death which would have shown his passing was down to more than an infection?

I would have thought so, certainly in the UK anyone who died in such circumstances would be subject to an autopsy.

most definitely. I'm just asking chaddy whether he's seen the report and knows what's in it.

I googled it and couldn't find anything, at least not on English websites.

 

[Nick C.]

Are autopsies mandatory for certain manners of death in Spain? At least in New York my understanding is that someone, typically the family, has to ask for an autopsy?

 

[MatParker117]

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

Agreed. And so, like me, you don't have a clue what really happened.
And so I think we can all agree that Txema's death is a serious enough issue to be re-examined in light of the newly found facts that (a) Sky have experimented with PEDs and (b) have been shown to lie regularly.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

Agreed. And so, like me, you don't have a clue what really happened.
And so I think we can all agree that Txema's death is a serious enough issue to be re-examined in light of the newly found facts that (a) Sky have experimented with PEDs and (b) have been shown to lie regularly.

His blood would of been examined at the time by several doctors from the Sevilla hospital and a pathologist if this was deemed a sudden death (which by all accounts it was), had anything untoward been found at the time a full postmortem would of ordered and his family may well of requested one. It's also the law in Spain to embalm bodies within 48 hours after death and that involves the draining of his blood.

Still, I find it extremely unlikely at best that Sky are guilty of Corporate Manslaughter.

 

[sniper]

agreed.
so you have no idea what really happened.
you only have a vague idea of what *should* have happened.
hence need for re-examination in light of new facts wrt Sky, lying, and PEDs.

 

[BYOP88]

Wasn't he(Txema) cremated really quickly after his death?

EDIT:Not saying anything is dodgy about that. Just struck me as quick when it happened.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

Agreed. And so, like me, you don't have a clue what really happened.
And so I think we can all agree that Txema's death is a serious enough issue to be re-examined in light of the newly found facts that (a) Sky have experimented with PEDs and (b) have been shown to lie regularly.

His blood would of been examined at the time by several doctors from the Sevilla hospital and a pathologist if this was deemed a sudden death (which by all accounts it was), had anything untoward been found at the time a full postmortem would of ordered and his family may well of requested one. It's also the law in Spain to embalm bodies within 48 hours after death and that involves the draining of his blood.

Still, I find it extremely unlikely at best that Sky are guilty of Corporate Manslaughter.

... that was then covered up in some massive conspiracy involving SKY, his family, the coroners, etc, etc, etc. Yep, sounds likely to me ...

 

[sniper]

So PDM was guilty of attempted corporate manslaughter?
Be careful. You can get sued for such unfounded accusations.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

Agreed. And so, like me, you don't have a clue what really happened.
And so I think we can all agree that Txema's death is a serious enough issue to be re-examined in light of the newly found facts that (a) Sky have experimented with PEDs and (b) have been shown to lie regularly.

His blood would of been examined at the time by several doctors from the Sevilla hospital and a pathologist if this was deemed a sudden death (which by all accounts it was), had anything untoward been found at the time a full postmortem would of ordered and his family may well of requested one. It's also the law in Spain to embalm bodies within 48 hours after death and that involves the draining of his blood.

Still, I find it extremely unlikely at best that Sky are guilty of Corporate Manslaughter.

... that was then covered up in some massive conspiracy involving SKY, his family, the coroners, etc, etc, etc. Yep, sounds likely to me ...

Sorry, Spud, but apart from a few people at Sky who would know that Gonzalez was testing PEDs on himself?

His family most definitely would not know.

We don't know whether Gonzalez was examined after his death. It was announced as caused by a Virus. Well if that is not true and the hospital knew he died of other causes then the family would know and unless Sky gave a huge sum of money, we would know.

Would a Spanish hospital know to send the bloods to a specialist lab to look for PEDs and considering anti-doping is 10years behind they still might not find anything.

Would a pathology test cost money? Would the family want his body examined? Lots we dont know.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Blood tests would of been done on his arrival to hospital to determine the cause of the sepsis, plus blood would of been taken to monitor the progress of the infection and a load of other tests would of been done as the guy was in a coma. Had anything suspicious been found then the hospital staff would probably been legally bound to inform the spanish police.

Agreed. And so, like me, you don't have a clue what really happened.
And so I think we can all agree that Txema's death is a serious enough issue to be re-examined in light of the newly found facts that (a) Sky have experimented with PEDs and (b) have been shown to lie regularly.

His blood would of been examined at the time by several doctors from the Sevilla hospital and a pathologist if this was deemed a sudden death (which by all accounts it was), had anything untoward been found at the time a full postmortem would of ordered and his family may well of requested one. It's also the law in Spain to embalm bodies within 48 hours after death and that involves the draining of his blood.

Still, I find it extremely unlikely at best that Sky are guilty of Corporate Manslaughter.

... that was then covered up in some massive conspiracy involving SKY, his family, the coroners, etc, etc, etc. Yep, sounds likely to me ...

Sorry, Spud, but apart from a few people at Sky who would know that Gonzalez was testing PEDs on himself?

His family most definitely would not know.

We don't know whether Gonzalez was examined after his death. It was announced as caused by a Virus. Well if that is not true and the hospital knew he died of other causes then the family would know and unless Sky gave a huge sum of money, we would know.

Would a Spanish hospital know to send the bloods to a specialist lab to look for PEDs and considering anti-doping is 10years behind they still might not find anything.

Would a pathology test cost money? Would the family want his body examined? Lots we dont know.

So yet again you are asking proof of a negative (something you know cant be satisfied) ...

 

[sniper]

Somebody who had previously worked with Txema Gonzalez at Saunier Duval is David Millar.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/txema-gonzalez-a-tribute-from-david-millar/
From that tribute, it's clear David saw Txema as an outstanding, self-respecting soigneur.

This is from Millar's Racing through the Dark:

His [Desbiens'] plight demonstrated the risks riders ran if they 'experimented' on their own. It was usually the soigneurs who dealt with rider medication. Every self-respecting soigneur would have his own comprehensive medical bag and, if the doctor was not at the race, which was often the case, then the soigneurs would assume that role - often with relish.

Smell the coffee.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So yet again you are asking proof of a negative (something you know cant be satisfied) ...

No apart from teamSky who would know? That was what i asked.

Dont twist.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So yet again you are asking proof of a negative (something you know cant be satisfied) ...

No apart from teamSky who would know? That was what i asked.

Dont twist.

exactly.

imo it's quite simple: a team of medical investigators should check if Sky followed medical procedures *prior to*, *during*, and *following* Txema's fatal infection. Go through the medical paper work and, if that paper work is faulty, proceed with interrogating people involved at the time to see if there's a case for fatal medical negligence claims.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

So yet again you are asking proof of a negative (something you know cant be satisfied) ...

No apart from teamSky who would know? That was what i asked.

Dont twist.

"We don't know whether Gonzalez was examined after his death. It was announced as caused by a Virus. Well if that is not true and the hospital knew he died of other causes then the family would know and unless Sky gave a huge sum of money, we would know."

So because we haven't heard anything to the contrary of the official reason then Sky must have given them a huge sum of money to cover it up? How can / do you know this? What evidence (or otherwise) do you have to make such a claim? OR maybe he did actually die of the announced / reported bacterial infection. Otherwise you are in to the land of conspiracies with no solid basis for making such a claim.

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Somebody who had previously worked with Txema Gonzalez at Saunier Duval is David Millar.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/txema-gonzalez-a-tribute-from-david-millar/
From that tribute, it's clear David saw Txema as an outstanding, self-respecting soigneur.

This is from Millar's Racing through the Dark:

His [Desbiens'] plight demonstrated the risks riders ran if they 'experimented' on their own. It was usually the soigneurs who dealt with rider medication. Every self-respecting soigneur would have his own comprehensive medical bag and, if the doctor was not at the race, which was often the case, then the soigneurs would assume that role - often with relish.

Smell the coffee.

Which says what - that a soigneur would be prepared to experiment on him/herself? Having a comprehensive medical bag is very different from being willing to stick the needle in your own arm.