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ok, sorry KB, i thought you were being silly with the pens, but now realize you were making a serious point about "permanent" vs. "non-permanent" conflicts of interest. My bad.
I need to read up on that though, as I'm not acquainted with those two technical terms, and not quickly finding any good definitions with good examples.
I need to read up on that though, as I'm not acquainted with those two technical terms, and not quickly finding any good definitions with good examples.
Re:
Basically it comes down to:
1 - is it declared? (in this case it is as its been acknowledged that the potential for a conflict exists.
2 - if so, is it managed? i.e. are the policies and procedures in the UCI such that a decision concerning DD or any of their riders/employess can be made in a transparent manner without involving Cookson senior or in a way where any potential favouritism is properly scrutinised?
On the second point we do not know.
sniper said:
Basically it comes down to:
1 - is it declared? (in this case it is as its been acknowledged that the potential for a conflict exists.
2 - if so, is it managed? i.e. are the policies and procedures in the UCI such that a decision concerning DD or any of their riders/employess can be made in a transparent manner without involving Cookson senior or in a way where any potential favouritism is properly scrutinised?
On the second point we do not know.
thanks for clarifying simoni.
As for the second point: we know Cookson has been involved in antidoping and TUE decisions regarding Sky during the period that his son was working there.
More generally, Cookson is involved in the development and implementation of antidoping and antimotor legislation, which automatically concerns the riders and the team his son works with/for, so imo there's a pretty blatant COI right there. The worrying part is that this COI is not recognized by Cookson ("I don't believe there's a conflict of interest"). 1st: It's not up to him to decide that, so why is he even stating it?
2nd: the fact that he's not even recognizing it, imo, strongly suggests he doesnt feel a need to do anything about it either.
Whether that COI is 'permanent' in KB's sense of the word, I don't know as i'm not finding proper definitions of that. But I'm not sure it matters.
As for the second point: we know Cookson has been involved in antidoping and TUE decisions regarding Sky during the period that his son was working there.
More generally, Cookson is involved in the development and implementation of antidoping and antimotor legislation, which automatically concerns the riders and the team his son works with/for, so imo there's a pretty blatant COI right there. The worrying part is that this COI is not recognized by Cookson ("I don't believe there's a conflict of interest"). 1st: It's not up to him to decide that, so why is he even stating it?
2nd: the fact that he's not even recognizing it, imo, strongly suggests he doesnt feel a need to do anything about it either.
Whether that COI is 'permanent' in KB's sense of the word, I don't know as i'm not finding proper definitions of that. But I'm not sure it matters.
Re:
I htink all KB is trying to articulate is the a COI status may change as the situation changes. For example, in my work as a consultant, its quite often that we're asked to declare relatives/friends etc. working for publicly run organisations. If my wife changed role from, say, procurement to human resources then a conflict of interest may arise or disappear. The world isn't fixed.
As far as Cookson goes, what you're saying very much depends on how much he gets his hands dirty (no pun intended). I'd have thought that the chairman of the UCI or similar organisations would limit their role to e.g directing/signing off on policy rather then decision making at a micro level. It seems that Verbruggen/McQuaid were certainly getting involved in individual deicsions that weren't part of what I'd consider their role to be.
Cookson talked a lot about improving "governance" in the UCI which I took to mean getting proper policies in place and implementing them properly in a transparent way. People on here often ask "what is Cookson going to do about X?" when really, to me, they should be asking "what is the UCI going to do?"
Either way, some of the things he's said and does still suggest that he is too involved with the nitty gritty. Given that the whole thing was a dysfunctional mess that isn't surprising but, if i were him, I'd be focusing on sorting out how the organisation operates. Maybe he is doing that but events overtake. Whatever, I still don't get the impression the UCI operates properly and I wonder if there's anyone out there who could wrench it into shape, esp given the mess that other global governing bodies are still in. Maybe we expect too much.
sniper said:
I htink all KB is trying to articulate is the a COI status may change as the situation changes. For example, in my work as a consultant, its quite often that we're asked to declare relatives/friends etc. working for publicly run organisations. If my wife changed role from, say, procurement to human resources then a conflict of interest may arise or disappear. The world isn't fixed.
As far as Cookson goes, what you're saying very much depends on how much he gets his hands dirty (no pun intended). I'd have thought that the chairman of the UCI or similar organisations would limit their role to e.g directing/signing off on policy rather then decision making at a micro level. It seems that Verbruggen/McQuaid were certainly getting involved in individual deicsions that weren't part of what I'd consider their role to be.
Cookson talked a lot about improving "governance" in the UCI which I took to mean getting proper policies in place and implementing them properly in a transparent way. People on here often ask "what is Cookson going to do about X?" when really, to me, they should be asking "what is the UCI going to do?"
Either way, some of the things he's said and does still suggest that he is too involved with the nitty gritty. Given that the whole thing was a dysfunctional mess that isn't surprising but, if i were him, I'd be focusing on sorting out how the organisation operates. Maybe he is doing that but events overtake. Whatever, I still don't get the impression the UCI operates properly and I wonder if there's anyone out there who could wrench it into shape, esp given the mess that other global governing bodies are still in. Maybe we expect too much.
rick james
BANNED
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nepotism
ˈnɛpətɪz(ə)m/
noun
the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
With the Van Zyl-Qhubeka-B.Cookson link, Oli's appointment at DD smells of nepotism, too.
ˈnɛpətɪz(ə)m/
noun
the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
With the Van Zyl-Qhubeka-B.Cookson link, Oli's appointment at DD smells of nepotism, too.
Re:
There is no conflict of interest here just because a family member works within the industry, in fact its quite an unfair claim unless you can add substance to show where the conflict of interest is or when it has occured.
Whats strange about Nepotism- or perceived neoptism. Its rife throughout the sporting world, business world- life in general. Of course a Father would look out for his son. Although unless you can prove direct influence you'll have to leave it as perceived nepotism- and I doubt you were on the interview panelsniper said:
There is no conflict of interest here just because a family member works within the industry, in fact its quite an unfair claim unless you can add substance to show where the conflict of interest is or when it has occured.
Re:
surely there is no COI for decisions that effect all teams equally. unless you're implying there will be separate legislation which only applies to DD (or makes them exempt)
sniper said:
surely there is no COI for decisions that effect all teams equally. unless you're implying there will be separate legislation which only applies to DD (or makes them exempt)
Re: Re:
it could urge him to make the legislation less rigid than necessary (e.g. less motortesting) because he knows his son will benefit from it.
he could also pass all sorts of intel to his son.
etc.
but yes, the CoI is obviously even more troublesome in cases/decision taking that involve individual DD riders or the DD team as a whole.
why not?Kender said:
it could urge him to make the legislation less rigid than necessary (e.g. less motortesting) because he knows his son will benefit from it.
he could also pass all sorts of intel to his son.
etc.
but yes, the CoI is obviously even more troublesome in cases/decision taking that involve individual DD riders or the DD team as a whole.
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Pro-cycling is a tiny world, with people who have friends and allegiances constantly moving from team to team. Such is life.
Frankly, unless you've got some meat to put on the bones, with some real world examples of how Cookson has actually favoured whichever team his son works for, then this whole thread is just idle speculation.
Frankly, unless you've got some meat to put on the bones, with some real world examples of how Cookson has actually favoured whichever team his son works for, then this whole thread is just idle speculation.
But there's only one president, who, obviously, needs to set the most impeccable standards.
He does the opposite.
I think you should read back one or two pages on ex-doper Van Zyl, hired by Brian Cookson.
You couldnt make that stuff up. And do let me know if you've seen anything similar in any other sport.
Same for Briand-Oli. Let me know if you know of another sport's president with such conflicts of interest.
Also, there's some irony in the president's son working with a bunch of (ex-)dopers and facilitators, one caught doper (Van Zyl), one formerly affiliated to USPS (Hammond), two to T-Mobile (Hammond, Aldag), one (Teixeira) to a very dodgy Spanish team Huesos who had three positives between 80-81, right in the time Teixiera was there, and one (Heynderickx) who in 2009 had a 21-year old rider die on his watch from a heart attack.
Haven't mentioned Zemke yet, or Brian Smith's involvement in the team set up.
It's a real who's who of dopers and facilitators.
So no, this thread is not just about Oli Cookson, but yes, him working for the team is a blatantly obvious example of cycling's incestuous corruption and top-down culture of cheating.
Ow, and it's also a general reference thread for future suspicious Dimension Data performances.
If there are none, this thread will automatically fade away into oblivion. I don't see any harm in that.
He does the opposite.
I think you should read back one or two pages on ex-doper Van Zyl, hired by Brian Cookson.
You couldnt make that stuff up. And do let me know if you've seen anything similar in any other sport.
Same for Briand-Oli. Let me know if you know of another sport's president with such conflicts of interest.
Also, there's some irony in the president's son working with a bunch of (ex-)dopers and facilitators, one caught doper (Van Zyl), one formerly affiliated to USPS (Hammond), two to T-Mobile (Hammond, Aldag), one (Teixeira) to a very dodgy Spanish team Huesos who had three positives between 80-81, right in the time Teixiera was there, and one (Heynderickx) who in 2009 had a 21-year old rider die on his watch from a heart attack.
Haven't mentioned Zemke yet, or Brian Smith's involvement in the team set up.
It's a real who's who of dopers and facilitators.
So no, this thread is not just about Oli Cookson, but yes, him working for the team is a blatantly obvious example of cycling's incestuous corruption and top-down culture of cheating.
Ow, and it's also a general reference thread for future suspicious Dimension Data performances.
If there are none, this thread will automatically fade away into oblivion. I don't see any harm in that.
What are the odds.
So daddy Cookson gave DD their much desired world tour license late November 2015:
http://cyclingtips.com/2015/11/dimension-data-gets-its-date-in-front-of-uci-licence-commission-cookson-feels-team-is-logical-choice-for-worldtour-place/
Oliver officially switched from Sky to DD early February 2016.
https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/698147352897392641
That's hardly two months apart.
So daddy Cookson gave DD their much desired world tour license late November 2015:
http://cyclingtips.com/2015/11/dimension-data-gets-its-date-in-front-of-uci-licence-commission-cookson-feels-team-is-logical-choice-for-worldtour-place/
Oliver officially switched from Sky to DD early February 2016.
https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/698147352897392641
That's hardly two months apart.
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I think you need to take a more realistic look at the world. Cycling teams need to employ people with a background in cycling, because they need people with skills and experience, and very often this means ex-cyclists. I'm sure that you can understand how difficult it would be to find a verifiably 'clean' ex-pro.
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Re:
The odds of what?
The odds that a team moving up to World Tour status needs to recruit staff who already have experience at world tour level?
Pretty high, I'd suggest.
Besides, do you not think that it was already on the cards that MTN/Dimension Data would move up given their GT success last year? Added to which the political imperative of having an African World Tour team? Added to which it was widely known last July that Cavendish was moving to DD. Do you think he'd have moved if the decision to promote DD hadn't already been made?
What are the odds?
The odds of DD moving up because of all the reasons outlined above, or the odds that all of the things mentioned above only happened because Ollie Cookson got a job months later.
sniper said:
The odds of what?
The odds that a team moving up to World Tour status needs to recruit staff who already have experience at world tour level?
Pretty high, I'd suggest.
Besides, do you not think that it was already on the cards that MTN/Dimension Data would move up given their GT success last year? Added to which the political imperative of having an African World Tour team? Added to which it was widely known last July that Cavendish was moving to DD. Do you think he'd have moved if the decision to promote DD hadn't already been made?
What are the odds?
The odds of DD moving up because of all the reasons outlined above, or the odds that all of the things mentioned above only happened because Ollie Cookson got a job months later.
Good idea. Lets lower the ethical standards for cycling even further, just so that Oliver can have his job at DD.
That's surely gonna help clean up the sport. The president setting the right example. Conflicts of interest are ok. Nepotism is ok.
More importantly: Doping is ok (Van Zyl).
That's surely gonna help clean up the sport. The president setting the right example. Conflicts of interest are ok. Nepotism is ok.
More importantly: Doping is ok (Van Zyl).
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Re: Re:
If his son does not benefit over and above other people in the same position then it's not a CoI. Making less rigid testing would be beneficial to anyone who cheated. In essence you are saying that the president of the UCI has a CoI doing his job, because less bad press for cycling means he benefits.
The CoI only exists if a decision involves/affects DD personnel specifically. That is why he has said he will remove himself from any such decision. Whether he will is certainly open for debate.
Passing intel is not a CoI, it's against the rules.
sniper said:
If his son does not benefit over and above other people in the same position then it's not a CoI. Making less rigid testing would be beneficial to anyone who cheated. In essence you are saying that the president of the UCI has a CoI doing his job, because less bad press for cycling means he benefits.
The CoI only exists if a decision involves/affects DD personnel specifically. That is why he has said he will remove himself from any such decision. Whether he will is certainly open for debate.
Passing intel is not a CoI, it's against the rules.
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Re:
What is Oliver Cookson's experience, specifically for the role of DS? That's a big alarm to me, there are surely much better candidates, such as pretty much anyone who was actually raced at WT level.
kwikki said:
What is Oliver Cookson's experience, specifically for the role of DS? That's a big alarm to me, there are surely much better candidates, such as pretty much anyone who was actually raced at WT level.
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