Doping in other sports?

[Franklin]

I don't remember the finer details, but I watched a show where they discussed the skill of the batsman, and how they didn't see the ball at their feet or bouncing up towards them, but rather judged the trajectory based on the arm of the bowler as it swung over the bowler's head.

Quite interesting.

Makes me think of tennis players grunting when they hit a ball, or tabletennis players stamping their foot when they hit a ball.

At those speeds they don't look as much at the ball but indeed at their opponent and use their ears (won't work with a bowled ball ofc)to determine what exactly is going on. Quite amazing really.

But that's heavily off topic.

 

[zebedee]

Makes me think of tennis players grunting when they hit a ball . . . . .
At those speeds they don't look as much at the ball but indeed at their opponent and use their ears . . . . . .

Have you ever watched a pro tennis player hit the ball? This super slo mo of Federer may give you a better idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI

His hand-eye co-ordination is absolute. The importance of sound is relatively marginal.

 

[Franklin]

I believe you immediately, I have seen a fair share of tennismatches, but never played or analyzed it much.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Have you ever watched a pro tennis player hit the ball? This super slo mo of Federer may give you a better idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI

His hand-eye co-ordination is absolute. The importance of sound is relatively marginal.

That's awesome. Reminds me of learning to punch - you watch the second time he hits the ball (looks more obvious than the first), but his hips are moving before anything else. He's hitting with his entire body.

Thanks for the link!

 

[blackcat]

Have you ever watched a pro tennis player hit the ball? This super slo mo of Federer may give you a better idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI

His hand-eye co-ordination is absolute. The importance of sound is relatively marginal.

no no, Franklin's point stands and it crucially relevant.

Often the first cue of a miss-hit will be the sound.

how so? How many times does one see a miss-hit become a "winner", either by hitting the tape on the net and just falling in, or just floating in to the corner of the court on the opposite side. At first look at trajectory off the racquet, one may see the ball at 100% and what it would be as the shot which hit the middle. The sound might be/may be, the first cue, as to the miss-hit.

Now, it may not be the first cue in all shots. It might even be a marginal occurrence when it is the first cue.

 

[Franklin]

Note that this is memory, so I could be mistaken. The one about tabletennis I'm pretty sure about... but it's memory, not easily verifiable.

European Champion Bettine Vriesekoop was notorious because of her "stampfooting" with Tabletennis(Pingpong?), I think it even got her an injury one time. her explanation was that it masked the sound of her serve as sound is supposed to be extremely important with tabletennis.

I was a decent club player in my late teens, but I have no idea if I used my ears. It's all going so fast that you hardly have time to think beyond some basic strategy (push left short, push left short, topspin far left, smash) and even that is at it's most primal.

Tennisplayers also grunted/shouted (female players were really bad with this in those years)and I really think I heard/read that was for a similar reason. But we are talking 20 years ago, so perhaps I came up with that explanation due to what I know about tabletennis.

Tabletennis is very fast, as is badminton, but tennis is slower, so I could be wrong. I fully admit I never played Tennis myself, nor did I analyze strokes. My experience here is primarily watching wimbledon matches.

 

[SirLes]

One of the best shots can be the miss hit. "beaten for shear lack of pace" as the outcome is not what was intended and therefore signalled. Perfect deception.

You can tell a huge amount from what happens before the ball is struck. Trying to hide the queues or use deception is obviously very important but difficult to do.

Watching the ball is overrated!!

 

[Gavandope]

One of the best shots can be the miss hit. "beaten for shear lack of pace" as the outcome is not what was intended and therefore signalled. Perfect deception.

You can tell a huge amount from what happens before the ball is struck. Trying to hide the queues or use deception is obviously very important but difficult to do.

Watching the ball is overrated!!

I agree - in tennis you watch your opponent first and foremost and unless they whip the shot across you can pretty much guess which way.

Though with cricket and a hard leather ball at 90 mph you get a split second before you choose your shot/movement. Tall quicks it's tough to decide to go forward or play off the back foot as I found out to my cost!

The only doping cricket has a major problem with is financial doping - spot fixing!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Stamping the foot in table tennis, etc, that requires tool movement via your arms is aiming to increase the force generated.

Check out Kendo for further examples.

Hypotehsis: it's seeking to engage the entire "chain" of muscles, from your foot all the way up to your arm / hand.

 

[Franklin]

Stamping the foot in table tennis, etc, that requires tool movement via your arms is aiming to increase the force generated.

Check out Kendo for further examples.

Hypotehsis: it's seeking to engage the entire "chain" of muscles, from your foot all the way up to your arm / hand.

Could be, but one of the best players in Europe said it was to mask the sound of the bat hitting the ball, thus masking impact and effect.

 

[42x16ss]

He is one of the hardest hitting batsmen in the game, but I've seen him since he first started playing international cricket and haven't seen any massive weight or mass gain with him.

The finest player the West Indies have ever produced in my lifetime was sir Vivian Richards who hit the ball as hard as him easily and better. His only dope was chewing gum lol. During the days of very fast bowlers and bouncers who are much quicker than today, his bowling unit in his West Indies team had pretty much the the best four quicks in the world from the 76-92 that broke many ribs fingers and faces with short stuff and scared English batsmen rigid and he never ever wore a helmet throughout his career. Plenty to look at on YouTube. You give a short ball to Viv he got very, very angry and he carted the bowler all over the field!

I got my cheekbone smashed facing a very tall quick bowler, I was expecting the ball waist high for a cut shot it reared up so much in height into my face when I should have gone for the hook shot or better still swayed or ducked it. My mistake ending up crumpled up on the batting crease!

Viv Richards was just something else. Intimidation personified. The only players I've seen since that had anything close to his sheer mental and physical presence at the crease were Gordon Greenidge, Matthew Hayden and on his day, Ian Botham.

Ponting, Lara, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Kallis, Miandad and the Waugh twins may have been as skilled, but when it came to instilling fear into a bowler, they weren't a patch on Richards. The only bowler too stupid to fear him was Merv Hughes

 

[Energy Starr]

I wasnt sure where to post but check it out. I have no idea why I would be surpised. We live in a strange world.
It's EPO for horses, I think.
http://epoequine.com/

 

[thrawn]

Have you ever watched a pro tennis player hit the ball? This super slo mo of Federer may give you a better idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI

His hand-eye co-ordination is absolute. The importance of sound is relatively marginal.

When you watch all of the slow motion shots of tennis players, Federer is always the best at watching the ball onto the racquet, and then keeping his eyes on where he made impact with the ball. Head doesn't move until he's through the shot. Others come close, but not the same.

 

[poupou]

Could be, but one of the best players in Europe said it was to mask the sound of the bat hitting the ball, thus masking impact and effect.

Yes the reason was to cover the sound of the ball hitting the rubber, so that the player cannot determine how much spin the ball has.
In the old days, racket could have 2 differents kind of rubber, one for spin, and another with few grip. Only the sound could permit to determine which kind of rubber was used to play the ball.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

...In the old days, racket could have 2 differents kind of rubber, one for spin, and another with few grip.....

IIRC it was pips in for spin and pips out for speed.

 

[Gavandope]

IIRC it was pips in for spin and pips out for speed.

Having McEnroe's Dunlop max200g for over 25 years strung again and again with new grips when I finally retired it the Wilson I have now feels like its doped. They give so much more power and control, sweet spot 3x bigger, so much so that I've been learning to play much more single handed backhanded which I could never do from when I first played the game. I thought the Dunlop made my old steel Wilson Connors and Borg donnay feel very obsolete. Should have replaced it years ago - no wonder I got hammered by not!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

IIRC it was pips in for spin and pips out for speed.

When I played, it was pips in for spin, and 7mm of rubber backing between the blade and the outer layer for speed ;-)

-* BOOM *-

le sigh.

 

[Spider1964]

Viv Richards was just something else. Intimidation personified. The only players I've seen since that had anything close to his sheer mental and physical presence at the crease were Gordon Greenidge, Matthew Hayden and on his day, Ian Botham.

Ponting, Lara, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Kallis, Miandad and the Waugh twins may have been as skilled, but when it came to instilling fear into a bowler, they weren't a patch on Richards. The only bowler too stupid to fear him was Merv Hughes

Not sure it's on Google, but Dennis Lillee v Viv Richards in a Gillette Cup one dayer WA v Qld. WA got bowled out for a low score and they were sitting in the rooms bemoaning the certain loss, when Lillee stormed onto the ground and said follow me. He opened the bowling to Viv and started by bowling 5 bouncers in a row.. Then clean ripped him. Took 7? For not many, WA won. Brilliant. He did not fear Viv.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Lillee was the man back when I had to watch cricket as a kid. 100mph speed tests and knocking stumps out of the ground in the process.

 

[sittingbison]

Not sure it's on Google, but Dennis Lillee v Viv Richards in a Gillette Cup one dayer WA v Qld. WA got bowled out for a low score and they were sitting in the rooms bemoaning the certain loss, when Lillee stormed onto the ground and said follow me. He opened the bowling to Viv and started by bowling 5 bouncers in a row.. Then clean ripped him. Took 7? For not many, WA won. Brilliant. He did not fear Viv.

And a shield game where Rod Marsh signalled a bouncer after a couple of yorkers , Viv went the hook and Iron Gloves was already heading towards leg and took a one handed horizontal screamer

BTW that Gillette Cup was I think 1976 at the WACA... best game I ever saw (including the 1975 test against the WI )

 

[glassmoon]

ok, i need some clarification here. i understand that Jamaican anti doping organization is joke. My question is: Is Bolt avoiding the competitions through the season just because of "in competition" tests held by organizers? Or is he tested "out of competition" by some relevant agency besides of that Jamaican?
Thx.

 

[The Hitch]

I see Gemili went under 20 seconds for the 200m to win the European championships. As I recall 20 seconds used to be an amazing time. It would have won you the olympics most years and guaranteed medal even during the EPO era.

Except for last 2 olympics of course. 20 seconds wouldn't have been good enough for even a bronze.

So I had a look at best ever 200m times

1 19.19 -0.3 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Berlin 20.08.2009
2 19.26 +0.7 Yohan Blake JAM 26.12.89 1 Bruxelles 16.09.2011
3 19.30 -0.9 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Beijing 20.08.2008
4 19.32 +0.4 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 01.08.1996
4 19.32 +0.4 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 London 09.08.2012
6 19.40 +0.8 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Daegu 03.09.2011
7 19.44 +0.4 Yohan Blake JAM 26.12.89 2 London 09.08.2012
8 19.53 +0.7 Walter Dix USA 31.01.86 2 Bruxelles 16.09.2011
9 19.54 ±0.0 Yohan Blake JAM 26.12.89 1 Bruxelles 07.09.2012
10 19.56 -0.8 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Kingston 01.05.2010
11 19.57 ±0.0 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Bruxelles 04.09.2009
12 19.58 +1.3 Tyson Gay USA 09.08.82 1 New York City 30.05.2009
12 19.58 +1.4 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1rA Lausanne 23.08.2012
14 19.59 -0.9 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1rA Lausanne 07.07.2009
15 19.62 -0.3 Tyson Gay USA 09.08.82 1 Indianapolis 24.06.2007
16 19.63 +0.4 Xavier Carter USA 08.12.85 1 Lausanne 11.07.2006
16 19.63 -0.9 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Lausanne 02.09.2008
18 19.65 ±0.0 Wallace Spearmon USA 24.12.84 1 Daegu 28.09.2006
19 19.66 +1.7 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 23.06.1996
19 19.66 ±0.0 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Zürich 30.08.2012
19 19.66 ±0.0 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Moskva 17.08.2013
22 19.67 -0.5 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Athínai 13.07.2008
23 19.68 +0.4 Frank Fredericks NAM 02.10.67 2 Atlanta 01.08.1996
23 19.68 -0.1 Tyson Gay USA 09.08.82 1 Stuttgart 10.09.2006
23 19.68 -0.3 Usain Bolt JAM 21.08.86 1 Thessaloníki 13.09.2009
23 19.68 -0.5 Justin Gatlin USA 10.02.82 1 Monaco 18.07.2014
27 19.69 +0.9 Walter Dix USA 31.01.86 1 Gainesville 26.05.2007
28 19.70 +0.4 Tyson Gay USA 09.08.82 2 Lausanne 11.07.2006
28 19.70 +0.8 Walter Dix USA 31.01.86 2 Daegu 03.09.2011
30 19.71A +1.8 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Pietersburg 18.03.2000

Source : http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_200ok.htm

With the exception of the 3 performances from a 2 day span in 1996 Atlanta, every single one of the top 30 performances has been this millenium and about half in the last 5 years.

A time which would have guaranteed you a medal, usually silver at any olympics or wc up until 2007 would not have been good enough for a podium in the next 5 wc and olympics, and barely scraped you a bronze in moscow last year.

We humans are evolving fast.
Im so proud.

 

[roundabout]

A 19.72 time was set in 1970something.

 

[The Hitch]

A 19.72 time was set in 1970something.

1979.

At altitude.

 

[del1962]

Tracks are designed to for faster sprinting now.