Doping in other sports?

[JMBeaushrimp]

Sven Kramer's mysterious injury after the olympics comes to mind, left him out for a year. Other than that, the Dutch have the entire speed skating industry in their back pocket, im sure they could make things dissappear if they had to.

Too true.

When clap skates came out in the late 90s, the Dutch jumped on them right away and the ISU allowed the new skate design (previous rules mandated that the blade had to be fixed).

Suddenly the Dutch were piling up new world records...

 

[Amsterhammer]

Too true.

When clap skates came out in the late 90s, the Dutch jumped on them right away and the ISU allowed the new skate design (previous rules mandated that the blade had to be fixed).

Suddenly the Dutch were piling up new world records...

I take it you are aware that the clap skates were no secret, and that every skater in the world uses them?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I take it you are aware that the clap skates were no secret, and that every skater in the world uses them?

They are NOW.

I'm talking about when they first came out. Everyone did not have them. Around 1995. The Dutch had them first, not everyone adopted them initially, and the Dutch started piling up the new WRs.

Once everyone else got on them, things equalized again.

 

[Amsterhammer]

They are NOW.

I'm talking about when they first came out. Everyone did not have them. Around 1995. The Dutch had them first, not everyone adopted them initially, and the Dutch started piling up the new WRs.

Once everyone else got on them, things equalized again.

I may be wrong, but my recollection of the time is that the clap skates were not 'withheld' from anyone else, but that many others simply didn't embrace this new Dutch invention as enthusiastically as the Dutch themselves did.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I may be wrong, but my recollection of the time is that the clap skates were not 'withheld' from anyone else, but that many others simply didn't embrace this new Dutch invention as enthusiastically as the Dutch themselves did.

Absolutely correct.

There was also a period where it was unsure that the ISU would allow them.

But Viking (Dutch skate company) came out with them, the Dutch embraced them first (and reaped the benefits of the new technology), and the ISU is pro-Dutch.

Objectively, I don't think they should have been allowed...

Unbelievable podium sweeps the last two days! Great skating!

 

[Briant_Gumble]

ESPN's 9.79 got a lot of traction when it was on. The conclusion of that show seemed to be that Ben Johnson was spiked by Carl Lewis friend.

I stumbled across this show yesterday and in it, they discuss the possibility he was spiked around. 34:00-37:00;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz2wXFlV7-Q

They say Stanozolol is not soluble in water and anyone consuming a drink spiked with it would not notice. I am wondering how it is though. If someone was drunk then they could mistake the powder on top of their beer for froth?

 

[The Hitch]

I did like today's comments by Cookson.

"There's sports that have a doping problem and are trying to do something about it. Then there are sports that have a doping problem and are in denial about it."


Spot on there. We all know the cesspit that cycling was, and still can be. (I think it is better than it was, I know others disagree.) Other sports are just as bad, and are just in denial.

He's right but I've heard those in cycling rage against unspecified invisible other doping sports for quite some time.

Time to call them out by name.

 

[The Hitch]

Wasn't epo rumoured originally, a quarter century ago tested on Dutch speedskaters because a number of them died mysteriously?

Idk there's something in the back of my mind telling me I read that story some years ago but I can't find anything about it so maybe I imagined it.

 

[sniper]

Wasn't epo rumoured originally, a quarter century ago tested on Dutch speedskaters because a number of them died mysteriously?

Idk there's something in the back of my mind telling me I read that story some years ago but I can't find anything about it so maybe I imagined it.

speed skating is interesting.
so suited for (blood) doping, yet so few positives.
do they test there at all?

edit: good summary (in Dutch) of doping in speed skating:
http://sport.infonu.nl/overige-sport/109889-doping-in-het-schaatsen.html#het-epo-tijdperk

 

[mikeoneill]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_10000_m_speed_skating_men


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_10,000_metres_world_record_progression
world record progression suspiciously mirrors track progression

big drops starting in the early 90s falling off around 07 when epo testing improves

 

[neineinei]

The introduction of indoor skating halls must be taken into account. Especially the high altitude indoor skating halls. All the current world records were set at either the Calgary Olympic Oval or the Utah Olympic Oval. Calgary Olympic Oval (1035 meters above sea level) was opened in 1987. During the 1988 Olympics six new world records were set.

Still, some remarkable 10 000 meter records have been set at for instance Thialf in Heerenveen, at sea level.

The progression of the world records seems to have stopped. Especially the mens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_speed_skating_records

 

[Archibald]

I may be wrong, but my recollection of the time is that the clap skates were not 'withheld' from anyone else, but that many others simply didn't embrace this new Dutch invention as enthusiastically as the Dutch themselves did.

Absolutely correct.

There was also a period where it was unsure that the ISU would allow them.

But Viking (Dutch skate company) came out with them, the Dutch embraced them first (and reaped the benefits of the new technology), and the ISU is pro-Dutch.

Objectively, I don't think they should have been allowed...

Unbelievable podium sweeps the last two days! Great skating!

anyone for tri bars in 1989, then?

 

[del1962]

The introduction of indoor skating halls must be taken into account. Especially the high altitude indoor skating halls. All the current world records were set at either the Calgary Olympic Oval or the Utah Olympic Oval. Calgary Olympic Oval (1035 meters above sea level) was opened in 1987. During the 1988 Olympics six new world records were set.

Still, some remarkable 10 000 meter records have been set at for instance Thialf in Heerenveen, at sea level.

The progression of the world records seems to have stopped. Especially the mens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_speed_skating_records

Difficult to quantify the effects of altitude in this sport, in running you would expect any advantages from altitude to drop off somewhere around 1 two minute effort (800m) after that the benifits of the reduced resistance are offset by lack of oxygen, obvously with the higher speeds and maintenance of momentum in speed skating you would expect a longer period prior to the drop off, how long I have no idea

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Difficult to quantify the effects of altitude in this sport, in running you would expect any advantages from altitude to drop off somewhere around 1 two minute effort (800m) after that the benifits of the reduced resistance are offset by lack of oxygen, obvously with the higher speeds and maintenance of momentum in speed skating you would expect a longer period prior to the drop off, how long I have no idea

Speed skating speeds are similar to track cycling over non-sprint distances, so the impact of altitude would be broadly similar, one might suppose. Having said that, I don't know at what work duration the benefits of lower resistance are offset by less oxygen for cycling, so this isn't much help...

 

[Briant_Gumble]

A lengthy piece from SI on Tyson Gays positive test, they speculate that it was DHEA or testosterone.

http://m.si.com/3862340/cheat-sheet-the-file-on-tyson-gay/

Interesting that they speculate that testosterone was given as a homeopathic remedy even though it's not a homeopathic.

Completely unrelated but I don't know how this bodes for the Oscar pistorius case as they tried to say that the testosterone they found their was a homeopathic.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Difficult to quantify the effects of altitude in this sport, in running you would expect any advantages from altitude to drop off somewhere around 1 two minute effort (800m) after that the benifits of the reduced resistance are offset by lack of oxygen, obvously with the higher speeds and maintenance of momentum in speed skating you would expect a longer period prior to the drop off, how long I have no idea

The cycling hour record is obviously best done at altitude.

It is an interesting thought regarding SS records, one I hadn't really been aware of.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Austrians complain and protest after Görgl was tested at the wildly innapropriate time of 11 hours before competition http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-eve-of-Olympic-race/articleshow/30288117.cms

 

[More Strides than Rides]

The cycling hour record is obviously best done at altitude.

It is an interesting thought regarding SS records, one I hadn't really been aware of.

Has to do with the velocity of the sport.

http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/how-altitude-affects-running-compared-to-cycling

article compares cycling and running, but the speed of SS will fit in there somewhere

So why the difference? It's because of the enormous difference in speed, of course. The power required to overcome air resistance scales as the cube of speed (on a still day). During a one-hour race, cyclists go more than twice as fast as runners, which means they're expending more than eight times as much power to cut through the air. So even though cyclists face the exact same challenges in getting enough oxygen at higher altitudes, it's still a net benefit until -- according to Froncioni -- around 3,000 meters.

 

[del1962]

Has to do with the velocity of the sport.

http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/how-altitude-affects-running-compared-to-cycling

article compares cycling and running, but the speed of SS will fit in there somewhere

Thanks for the article, interstingly while it says that the benefits in running stop at 520m, a small altitude gain does not seem to matter for 800m, say Rieti at 405 m above sea level, where both 1500m and 800m world records have been broken,

 

[Wigwan]

Wow Martin Fourcade in 20k men's biathlon... Does not event look tired while all the others are on their knees...

 

[ToreBear]

Wow Martin Fourcade in 20k men's biathlon... Does not event look tired while all the others are on their knees...

We discuss biathlon in the Doping in XC skiing thread. Perhaps a mod should rename it to include biathlon or something.

On Fourcade, I haven't thought about it enough to have any opinion.

 

[Andynonomous]

Christine Nesbitt of Canada won the gold medal in 1000 metres long track speed skating 4 years ago in Vancouver. At the Soshi games, she skated 1 second faster than she did 4 years ago, and finished ninth this time around. Yep, speed skaters sure have "evolved" in the last 4 years.



Ya, ya, I know, the equipment, the ice surface, training regimes, nutrition, bla, bla, bla... A Chinese skater came out of nowhere to dominate the field.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Christine Nesbit of Canada won the gold medal in 1000 metres long track speed skating 4 years ago in Vancouver. At the Soshi games, she skated 1 second faster than she did 4 years ago, and finished ninth this time around. Yep, speed skaters sure have "evolved" in the last 4 years.



Ya, ya, I know, the equipment, the ice surface, training regimes, nutrition, bla, bla, bla... A Chinese skater came out of nowhere to dominate the field.

The Chinese have provided their own pillows stuffed with hair from pandas.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Christine Nesbitt of Canada won the gold medal in 1000 metres long track speed skating 4 years ago in Vancouver. At the Soshi games, she skated 1 second faster than she did 4 years ago, and finished ninth this time around. Yep, speed skaters sure have "evolved" in the last 4 years.



Ya, ya, I know, the equipment, the ice surface, training regimes, nutrition, bla, bla, bla... A Chinese skater came out of nowhere to dominate the field.

Steady diet of guinea pig?

 

[Andynonomous]

Steady diet of guinea pig?

Not just any guinea pig. Andean alto plano guinea pig.