Doping in Soccer/Football

[Justinr]

If Joey Barton was doping and that career was all he was capable of, God help him

This forum really should have a 'like' button ...

 

[gooner]

Pirlo's autobiography has just been translated into English and he has his doubts about the Champions League 2nd leg tie against Deportivo back in 2004.

I watched both those legs live and the 2nd leg was a brilliant comeback but I didn't think there was anything out of the ordinary in that game. Depor had a great side back then with the likes of Makaay, Tristan, Valeron, Fran, Molina(GK) Manuel Pablo, Naybet, Sergio etc.

A couple of seasons earlier than that, they beat Arsenal and United both home and away in the Champions League.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...in-champions-league-quarterfinal-9259877.html

 

[the sceptic]

Its always funny when italians complain about others cheating.

I loved it when Sweden and Denmark rigged their game to send Italy out in the euro cup that time. Such beautiful irony.

 

[The Hitch]

I watched both those legs live and the 2nd leg was a brilliant comeback but I didn't think there was anything out of the ordinary in that game. Depor had a great side back then with the likes of Makaay, Tristan, Valeron, Fran, Molina(GK) Manuel Pablo, Naybet, Sergio etc.

They probably didn't dope only for that 1 game.

 

[sniper]

Its always funny when italians complain about others cheating.

I loved it when Sweden and Denmark rigged their game to send Italy out in the euro cup that time. Such beautiful irony.

not just the italians.
recently a whole Dutch documentary was dedicated to how Juve 1996 allegedly doped their way to victory over Ajax in the Champions League final.
Not one single question mark behind Ajax' own remarkable athletic performances two years in a row.

 

[HSNHSN]

not just the italians.
recently a whole Dutch documentary was dedicated to how Juve 1996 allegedly doped their way to victory over Ajax in the Champions League final.
Not one single question mark behind Ajax' own remarkable athletic performances two years in a row.

Wasn't that at about the same time quite a lot was revealed about Ajax' doping abuse in the seventies? And still no questions about these seasons. It surprised me as well.

 

[Andynonomous]

Not doping related, but if one form of corruption exists in a sport, it is more likely that other forms of corruption exist as well.

Does anyone doubt that the upcoming world cup is going to be a "battle of the dopers" ? If so, the winner will just be the biggest cheater, so winning should reduce a countries prestige.

Does Brazil have any history with doping (I have never heard much about Brazilians and doping) ?

 

[the sceptic]

Not doping related, but if one form of corruption exists in a sport, it is more likely that other forms of corruption exist as well.

Does anyone doubt that the upcoming world cup is going to be a "battle of the dopers" ? If so, the winner will just be the biggest cheater, so winning should reduce a countries prestige.

Does Brazil have any history with doping (I have never heard much about Brazilians and doping) ?

All logic dictates that football is a doping free for all, where the only thing stopping you is how much you (or the team doctor) is willing to risk. Kind of like cycling in the 90s.

That said though, I think talent is much more important in football than cycling.

 

[blackcat]

Not doping related, but if one form of corruption exists in a sport, it is more likely that other forms of corruption exist as well.

Does anyone doubt that the upcoming world cup is going to be a "battle of the dopers" ? If so, the winner will just be the biggest cheater, so winning should reduce a countries prestige.

Does Brazil have any history with doping (I have never heard much about Brazilians and doping) ?

the older ronaldo.

 

[The Hitch]

All logic dictates that football is a doping free for all, where the only thing stopping you is how much you (or the team doctor) is willing to risk. Kind of like cycling in the 90s.

That said though, I think talent is much more important in football than cycling.

Ostensibly yes but also in some ways no.

There are more ways doping can help in football. Yes epo is a bigger deal in cycling, though looking at barca and spain it's clearly a massive deal in football. But a cyclist isn't going to benefit from muscle building steroids, on the upper body. He isn't going to use injury recovery drugs anywhere near as much as footballers are since football is an impact sport and players playing 60 matches a season need it. American football doesn't even test for hgh and judging by the football worlds super lax attitude to messi taking it -oh he needed it to grow, association football doesn't care much either.

So footballers may get smaller benefits from any individual drugs but they have more doping techniques to benefit from to begin with.

Secondly, since football doesn't have anywhere near the testing of cycling, there is a higher doping upper limit.

Thirdly the unparalleled spread of financial rewards across the world in football (even people not ranked in the world top 2000 can become millionaires) there is more means to dope and more incentive to do so at the lower level.

Also more competition means you can leapfrog more people with even a small doping boost.

 

[gooner]

Not doping related, but if one form of corruption exists in a sport, it is more likely that other forms of corruption exist as well.

Does anyone doubt that the upcoming world cup is going to be a "battle of the dopers" ? If so, the winner will just be the biggest cheater, so winning should reduce a countries prestige.

Does Brazil have any history with doping (I have never heard much about Brazilians and doping) ?

There has been in recent years. Deco and Carlos Alberto had 2 positives and I can't remember the substances involved. I think Deco retired on the back of it. You might remember Carlos Alberto playing for Mourinho at Porto when they won the Champions League. There was a few other cases too with less high profile players. I wouldn't say they turn a blind eye to it over there.

 

[BradCantona]

The only thing going against doping in football is that there's no real guarentee of success in doing it. It's not donkey to race horse like cycling can be, a doped Port Vale player doesn't suddenly become Messi. And something as simple as instilling confidence in a player can potentially have a bigger effect than any doping can. Look at United this season compared to last, same players, completely different story under a different manager

When I've been suspicious of players / teams, it's been because 1) They never seem to get injured, or they recover from problems in a ridiculous timescale, and 2) They seem to have so much more energy than the opposition, they don't seem to tire. Guardiola's Barcelona had so much quality, they could have ruled Europe without doping. Whether they did that or not... perhaps only Fuentes knows

 

[The Hitch]

The only thing going against doping in football is that there's no real guarentee of success in doing it. It's not donkey to race horse like cycling can be, a doped Port Vale player doesn't suddenly become Messi.

A port vale player is like what 5000dth in the world. Of course he wont become as good as messi doped. He wont in cycling either. People in cycling like Alex Dinitz get caught on EPO. he didn't suddenly become Pantani by doing it. He never even got into Europe. No more than Port Vale players will become messi.

And something as simple as instilling confidence in a player can potentially have a bigger effect than any doping can.r

Confidence is important, but compared to a full on top level doping programme it is absolutely nothing. This isn't the 1950's when we are talking about some cocaine and amphetamines.

Not to mention that if theres anything that gives players confidence its taking drugs that make you twice as strong and twice as fast as you were before.

When I've been suspicious of players / teams, it's been because 1) They never seem to get injured, or they recover from problems in a ridiculous timescale, and 2) They seem to have so much more energy than the opposition, they don't seem to tire. Guardiola's Barcelona had so much quality, they could have ruled Europe without doping.

The players who were most doped had the most quality? Total coincidence that eh.

Yes of course technique and reading the game is superimportant. You don't get anywhere near the top leagues without being one of the best technically and mentally.

But if you look at lists of who are the fastest footballers, Messi, Ronaldo, Bale, Robben, Rooney, they are always right at the top.

You think if you take away their speed (and that is just one area where doping provides massive help) Ronaldo and Messi are the best players in the world?

A clean Ronaldo or Messi may very well be very good players. But make them faster stronger, fitter, and unhuman endurance, and they become 10x better players.

Physicality and football skills complement eachother, and becoming a physical beast makes you a so much better player.

Whether they did that or not... perhaps only Fuentes knows

In a sport with no controlls a man who's only speciality is doping people is working with the best football team in the world, and Spain destroy the evidence. Come on.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/19/police-called-drug-scandal-major-club

A major football club in England has been rocked by a drugs scandal that has gone as far as the police and the English authorities

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/19/police-called-drug-scandal-major-club

Its recreational drugs.

 

[Benotti69]

Its recreational drugs.

Still illegal.

 

[the sceptic]

Still illegal.

Not as exciting as if they had found a locker full of EPO and blood bags though.. no one will care about some players doing coke.

 

[gooner]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/19/police-called-drug-scandal-major-club

There was a poll about this in Four Four Two magazine in the last year or two among players in England and Scotland where they thought that recreational use in football was of a higher use than performance enhancing ones.

Ron Atkinson spoke about this back in 90s. Look at Garry O'Connor's positive for cocaine when he was at Birmingham. That was covered up until a UK documentary broke the news publicly.

 

[BradCantona]

Confidence is important, but compared to a full on top level doping programme it is absolutely nothing. This isn't the 1950's when we are talking about some cocaine and amphetamines.

Not to mention that if theres anything that gives players confidence its taking drugs that make you twice as strong and twice as fast as you were before.

Man City are jam packed of top level, big money, physically imposing, supremely talented and superfit players. Earlier in the season, they were smashing teams for fun. They'd be high on your suspicious list no doubt. Now whether they have dopers on not, contrast to now, when the poorest side in the league this season is seconds away from beating them, a title all but chucked away as they've dropped daft points... confidence. Absolutely huge, doped or not doped it changes everything

The players who were most doped had the most quality? Total coincidence that eh.

Yes of course technique and reading the game is superimportant. You don't get anywhere near the top leagues without being one of the best technically and mentally.

But if you look at lists of who are the fastest footballers, Messi, Ronaldo, Bale, Robben, Rooney, they are always right at the top.

You think if you take away their speed (and that is just one area where doping provides massive help) Ronaldo and Messi are the best players in the world?

Have to disagree here. Rooney one of the fastest footballers? While Messi is rapid with the ball at his feet, he's not particularly notable for his sheer pace. There are plenty others who are fast, and not the absolute top level. Lennon of Spurs is the quickest player I've seen, he's absolute lightning. Very good, but obviously not one of the best. Walcott too. Ronaldo was rapid when he was a twig thin teenager, Bale too. Guardiola's Barca wasn't packed with speedsters, but they were well organised, pressed high and never seemed to tire. Then when they had the ball, you didn't get it back. I think power, endurance and recovery are the more potently dopable traits in football, rather than raw speed

A clean Ronaldo or Messi may very well be very good players. But make them faster stronger, fitter, and unhuman endurance, and they become 10x better

In a sport with no controlls a man who's only speciality is doping people is working with the best football team in the world, and Spain destroy the evidence. Come on.

'10x' is an exaggeration. Ronaldo and Messi are so far ahead of the rest though, which is interesting. If you think doping is a part of that, why is their supremecy so great? One of them is a near super human specimen, the other isn't, but had a magical period of fitness under Guardiola when he's been incredibly injury prone the rest of his career. Suspicion is understandable...

The Spanish haven't been alliwed to destroy their evidence yet have they? I thought it was still being contested?

 

[BradCantona]

judging by the football worlds super lax attitude to messi taking it -oh he needed it to grow, association football doesn't care much either.

Harsh this, he was given HGH for its intended purpose, to resolve growth deficiency - he was just over 4" in his teens - and was a perfectly reasonable medical course of action. Has never been a secret as far as I'm aware too. And it's hardly transformed him into some inhuman freak, he's barely the height and build of your average adult

Now if he's used it since for recovery, or other doping product, that's something else entirely. But to take a swipe at football for its 'lax attitude' here is a red herring for me

 

[hrotha]

You know what boosts your confidence? Feeling physically stronger than ever.

 

[Benotti69]

There was a poll about this in Four Four Two magazine in the last year or two among players in England and Scotland where they thought that recreational use in football was of a higher use than performance enhancing ones.

Ron Atkinson spoke about this back in 90s. Look at Garry O'Connor's positive for cocaine when he was at Birmingham. That was covered up until a UK documentary broke the news publicly.

Robbie Fowler.................

 

[Justinr]

Robbie Fowler.................

Indeed - he even went and pretended to sniff the white line after scoring IIRC

 

[sniper]

Indeed - he even went and pretended to sniff the white line after scoring IIRC

he did indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYEMa465re0

 

[The Hitch]

There was a poll about this in Four Four Two magazine in the last year or two among players in England and Scotland where they thought that recreational use in football was of a higher use than performance enhancing ones.

All that shows is how incredibly stupid football fans are.