Doping in Soccer/Football

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Only around here would you see logic like that.

Lol, you really want to go down this trolling path?

The one trodded by your old friend mvickers.

look how much trauma it's cost him with his constant increasingly desperate attempts to get back.

Because we can play this game very differently if that's how you want to play.

 

[beatthatrat]

Re: Re:

Only around here would you see logic like that.

Lol, you really want to go down this trolling path?

The one trodded by your old friend mvickers.

look how much trauma it's cost him with his constant increasingly desperate attempts to get back.

Because we can play this game very differently if that's how you want to play.

That's doesn't sound very nice.
Although I haven't been defending the forum as long as you I'm pretty sure you're out of line there.
What he wrote was in reference to this quote (I presume) which was bizarrely used to highlight doping doubts about Wenger's own team.
"Arsène Wenger says that Alexis Sánchez’s style reminds him of a lion hunting its prey and he continues to be amazed at the forward’s durability."

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Only around here would you see logic like that.

Lol, you really want to go down this trolling path?

The one trodded by your old friend mvickers.

look how much trauma it's cost him with his constant increasingly desperate attempts to get back.

Because we can play this game very differently if that's how you want to play.

That's doesn't sound very nice.
Although I haven't been defending the forum as long as you I'm pretty sure you're out of line there.
What he wrote was in reference to this quote (I presume) which was bizarrely used to highlight doping doubts about Wenger's own team.
"Arsène Wenger says that Alexis Sánchez’s style reminds him of a lion hunting its prey and he continues to be amazed at the forward’s durability."

That's it.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Only around here would you see logic like that.

Lol, you really want to go down this trolling path?

The one trodded by your old friend mvickers.

look how much trauma it's cost him with his constant increasingly desperate attempts to get back.

Because we can play this game very differently if that's how you want to play.

Trolling, vickers again. Get over it.

I'm actually wondering are you deadly serious or what?

How someone can spin Wenger's comments by portraying the implication he is calling his own player a doper is beyond me.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Sorry, I bet you are too young to realize that back in the 1990's Zeman actually was a very big name in football, but, in Italy you dont mess with the Agnelli's.

And again missing the point, it was over 10 years ago...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html

EPO is a banned drug which increases the oxygen-carrying capability of blood.
"We have had some players come to us at Arsenal from other clubs abroad and their red blood cell count has been abnormally high," Wenger told the Independent. "That kind of thing makes you wonder.
"There are clubs who dope their players without the players knowing.
"The club might say that they were being injected with vitamins and the player would not necessarily know that it was something different."
Wenger was speaking at a debate in Brussels on the contribution of football to European integration.

And here's the thing... during the standard pre-transfer medical, he finds out they have an abnormally high red blood cell count, but doesn't reject the transfer/player when he discovers the reason for why said player appeared to be so good and was worth signing the first place??
He wonders, "hmmm.. this guy was so good because he was doped, but we'll still sign him because he'll be just as good for us once he's clean"...

something that still hasn't been explained yet.
And then someone is suspicious of Sanchez, which is ruled out as 'nothing to see here', he's just praising a player...

You probably missed this part:

"There are clubs who dope their players without the players knowing."

This has been addressed up thread. People like Henry and Sanchez coming from Juve and Barca are main players at Arsenal, whereas they were more supplementary players at those clubs beforehand. Sanchez was a far better player for Chile than he was for Barca during his stint there(eg: WC '14, v England in Wembley). In the case of Henry, a positional change also helped. Not everything can simply be put down to doping. Petit, Overmars and Hleb went to Barca and were shadows of their former selves. There's differing reasons for players succeeding and failing at the various clubs they play for.

Claudio Ranieri once called Carlton Cole his lion. Probably meant code for calling for him a doper.

Only around here would you see logic like that.

Nope, I didn't miss that part. Claiming other clubs doped players without their knowledge was just prelude to his assertion that he sees players coming to arsenal with abnormally high red blood cell counts. Who got the player he's seeing with abnormally high red blood cell counts isn't the issue. Who cares how they got to that state...
The interest is simply how he then signs them knowing that there's something amiss with said player, and believes they'll be brilliant for him without doping...
If he's so anti-doping then why doesn't he cancel the transfer after the medical results?
This is partly why I distrust him - I wouldn't put it past him to continue the "I didn't see it" mantra should his players choose to 'enhance' themselves.

Sure, players vary as to how they fare at various teams and leagues.
You mention Henry, who took a while to get going in the premier league after he was signed. Arsenal was the only side he could perform at, coz let's face it, he was utter pants when playing for France during any of his days under Wenger...
This used to be Wenger's strength - his selection of signings - although these days he's well off the boil. Who knows what he used to do to get some players reach phenomenal potential. Do you really believe it was just the work on the training pitch? Especially to beat teams he thought were doping?
But, the above comments call this into doubt as to the full behind-the-scenes...

Granted some players would be destined to great heights with out PEDs - Berkamp was unbelievable skillful and no amount of PEDs could create some of that - it could help though...
Then again, **** knows what he saw in Bendtner, coz nothing worked with him as he went batsh*t crazy

 

[nayr497]

I'm amazed that some of you have the time, and energy, to follow doping in both cycling and soccer. I'm bewildered just trying to keep up with cycling.

 

[BrentonOfTheNorth]

Re: Re:

If he's so anti-doping then why doesn't he cancel the transfer after the medical results?

Can he do that? And would it even make sense? Cancelling a transfer just because the manager has the opinion that there were 'suspicious' blood values?

I wouldn't put it past him to continue the "I didn't see it" mantra should his players choose to 'enhance' themselves.

That explains your suspicion, then. Tribalism strikes again...

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

You mention Henry, who took a while to get going in the premier league after he was signed. Arsenal was the only side he could perform at, coz let's face it, he was utter pants when playing for France during any of his days under Wenger...

In a thread with so many ridiculous comments in recent pages, this stands out for its utter nonsense.

Is this the same Henry that won the league with Monaco and won the treble with Barcelona, playing a starring role in both sides? The same Henry who is also France's all-time record goalscorer, having won the World Cup and European Championships, as well as leading them to one other final.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

If he's so anti-doping then why doesn't he cancel the transfer after the medical results?

Can he do that? And would it even make sense? Cancelling a transfer just because the manager has the opinion that there were 'suspicious' blood values?

I wouldn't put it past him to continue the "I didn't see it" mantra should his players choose to 'enhance' themselves.

That explains your suspicion, then. Tribalism strikes again...

Ever heard of "Failed Medical"? They don't necessarily publicise the actual reason for the transfer failing, but seriously, if you find out that a possible incoming player has an "unusually high red blood cell count" (not 'suspicious' as you quote him), then alarm bells should be ringing... And in Wenger's case, he freely admits to those alarm bells - yet doesn't act on it...
Do you honestly think that player will be better if he signs him and plays him clean??

This isn't tribalism to think that there's something not right about that situation

You mention Henry, who took a while to get going in the premier league after he was signed. Arsenal was the only side he could perform at, coz let's face it, he was utter pants when playing for France during any of his days under Wenger...

In a thread with so many ridiculous comments in recent pages, this stands out for its utter nonsense.

Is this the same Henry that won the league with Monaco and won the treble with Barcelona, playing a starring role in both sides? The same Henry who is also France's all-time record goalscorer, having won the World Cup and European Championships, as well as leading them to one other final.

His goalscoring record at every club other than Arsenal was never at that level, before or after. He used to average over 30 goals a season, and while only staying at Barca for 3 seasons only once scored more than 20...
5 season at monaco and only 28 goals... in total...
I can still remember a lot of the motd discussion over Henry's performances for France - constant discussion over his underperforming on the international stage. That French side of the late 90's was pretty impressive all round, and I'd suggest their successes (a lot like Barca's during Henry's time) was more to the entire team collective than just Henry...

Take your rosies off

 

[The Carrot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06tkl9d/panorama-fifa-sepp-blatter-and-me

Watched this last night. No doping mentioned but it was all about FIFA corruption.

Couple of parallels to other sporting organisations close to our hearts:

1. Nike involved (to the point of influencing selection of the Brazilian national team).
2. Passionate (gullible) fans exploited.
3. It's a private club that makes it's own rules up.
4. Jobs and money for 'the boys'.
5. Run like a Mafia, only more blatant in their criminality!

The whole thing was perversely funny as to the parallel universe these (FIFA) people live in.

Another thing of note was how the British Press criticised the BBC for revealing much of this a few days before the vote for who would host the 2018 World Cup, as it affected England's bid. I suppose it's now OK to go for FIFA's jugular now we didn't get the bid eh?

 

[gooner]

Fred banned for a year for positive test at Copa America. Yet he was still allowed to play for Shaktar. The sanction only covers Conmebol. If FIFA get involved, he will only miss 4 months of football for Shaktar. Great stuff.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/dec/15/fred-brazil-doping-ban-shakhtar-donetsk

 

[Cake]

Fred banned for a year for positive test at Copa America. Yet he was still allowed to play for Shaktar. The sanction only covers Conmebol. If FIFA get involved, he will only miss 4 months of football for Shaktar. Great stuff.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/dec/15/fred-brazil-doping-ban-shakhtar-donetsk

The CONMEBOL part is spectacularly pointless, as Fred has not been selected since the Copa, and since he was allowed to carry on playing for his club, I'm sure had Brazil wanted to select him for the first 4 WC qualifiers, they would have. So effectively he's been banned from playing in a jurisdiction ..... he wasn't being chosen to play in anyway. Trebles all round!

 

[tantocomo]

Fred banned for a year for positive test at Copa America. Yet he was still allowed to play for Shaktar. The sanction only covers Conmebol. If FIFA get involved, he will only miss 4 months of football for Shaktar. Great stuff.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/dec/15/fred-brazil-doping-ban-shakhtar-donetsk

The CONMEBOL part is spectacularly pointless, as Fred has not been selected since the Copa, and since he was allowed to carry on playing for his club, I'm sure had Brazil wanted to select him for the first 4 WC qualifiers, they would have. So effectively he's been banned from playing in a jurisdiction ..... he wasn't being chosen to play in anyway. Trebles all round!

I'm really struggling to see how someone can only be banned in certain juristicions but free to do what they want in others.
Also from a PR point of view, wouldn't something like this attract more attention and suspicion than just banning him completely?

 

[arcus]

Arsene Wenger thinks there is a doping problem in football. (I suspect Eufemiano Fuentes would agree, since he said he doped soccer players!) .
However, WADA chief exec Craig Reedie doesn't seem at all worried.............

If he's talking about the elite level then the Football Associations in this country have a reasonably comprehensive anti-doping policy which is run by UK anti-doping – one of the top national anti-doping organisations in the world. Before the last World Cup in Brazil, FIFA tested every player who took part before the tournament started. They took all the appropriate samples and sent them to a laboratory in Switzerland and there were not positive samples.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/01/16/19387312/wada-chief-responds-to-wengers-claims-over-doping-in

http://www.sportal.co.nz/football/champions-league/wada-chief-craig-reedie-happy-with-doping-policy-in-football/1lhxh26a8r8s1phy0vnlvh2sy

 

[beatthatrat]

Re:

Arsene Wenger thinks there is a doping problem in football. (I suspect Eufemiano Fuentes would agree, since he said he doped soccer players!) .
However, WADA chief exec Craig Reedie doesn't seem at all worried.............

If he's talking about the elite level then the Football Associations in this country have a reasonably comprehensive anti-doping policy which is run by UK anti-doping – one of the top national anti-doping organisations in the world. Before the last World Cup in Brazil, FIFA tested every player who took part before the tournament started. They took all the appropriate samples and sent them to a laboratory in Switzerland and there were not positive samples.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/01/16/19387312/wada-chief-responds-to-wengers-claims-over-doping-in

http://www.sportal.co.nz/football/champions-league/wada-chief-craig-reedie-happy-with-doping-policy-in-football/1lhxh26a8r8s1phy0vnlvh2sy

Arsene just keeps stirrin. He don't give a ****!

 

[sniper]

Re:

Arsene Wenger thinks there is a doping problem in football. (I suspect Eufemiano Fuentes would agree, since he said he doped soccer players!) .
However, WADA chief exec Craig Reedie doesn't seem at all worried.............

If he's talking about the elite level then the Football Associations in this country have a reasonably comprehensive anti-doping policy which is run by UK anti-doping – one of the top national anti-doping organisations in the world. Before the last World Cup in Brazil, FIFA tested every player who took part before the tournament started. They took all the appropriate samples and sent them to a laboratory in Switzerland and there were not positive samples.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/01/16/19387312/wada-chief-responds-to-wengers-claims-over-doping-in

http://www.sportal.co.nz/football/champions-league/wada-chief-craig-reedie-happy-with-doping-policy-in-football/1lhxh26a8r8s1phy0vnlvh2sy

as in the Lance case and the recent IAAF/Russia doping saga, here too an important name is Saugy/Lausanne.
For at least a decade now Saugy has been the go-to guy for sweeping doping under the rug, not just for IAAF and UCI, but also for FIFA.
One concrete example:
viewtopic.php?p=1473906#p1473906
Here's a more elaborate post about his 'work' for FIFA:
viewtopic.php?p=1644407#p1644407


As for Fuentes and doping: some of his notes have leaked into the press and they contained abbreviations of clubs whose ped programs he was running. RSOC (Real Sociedad) was one of them and according to LeMonde Barca and Madrid were also named in the notes, but as you know Lemonde had to retract that after both clubs sued the newspaper for libel.
In 2013 ex-president Inaki Badiola of Real Sociedad opened up about doping in the period 2001-2005. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2273092/Real-Sociedad-doping-scandal-Former-president-Inaki-Badiola-claims-drug-use-occurred-club.html
There were a few press releases on that, but after that the story disappeared like Kaiser Soze.

 

[beatthatrat]

Nothing particularly earth-shattering but at least the chorus is growing bit louder:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/richard-sadlier-doping-exists-in-football-too-only-the-deluded-think-otherwise-34370550.html

 

[sniper]

Re:

Nothing particularly earth-shattering but at least the chorus is growing bit louder:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/richard-sadlier-doping-exists-in-football-too-only-the-deluded-think-otherwise-34370550.html

it's a good piece voicing much of what we've been saying in here, though still containing some blatant understatements, starting with the very title. "Doping exists...". Duh. It could have said, "Doping is rampant in football, only the deluded think otherwise".
Further down he says "The risk of getting caught will put some players off, but not everyone." What risk?
Also, with that same sentence he's basically suggesting doping in soccer is an individual thing, which it clearly is not. Of course you'll have players doing extra stuff outside the team program, but it is first and foremost happening on a team-wide scale.

 

[beatthatrat]

Re: Re:

Nothing particularly earth-shattering but at least the chorus is growing bit louder:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/richard-sadlier-doping-exists-in-football-too-only-the-deluded-think-otherwise-34370550.html

it's a good piece voicing much of what we've been saying in here, though still containing some blatant understatements, starting with the very title. "Doping exists...". Duh. It could have said, "Doping is rampant in football, only the deluded think otherwise".
Further down he says "The risk of getting caught will put some players off, but not everyone." What risk?
Also, with that same sentence he's basically suggesting doping in soccer is an individual thing, which it clearly is not. Of course you'll have players doing extra stuff outside the team program, but it is first and foremost happening on a team-wide scale.

Yeah, good point on the team doping. It's especially hilarious that he omits that approach when he has written in the past about his own experiences with a team doctor at Millwall. It's obvious that some teams have a programme - only the deluded think otherwise!
And still he hasn't mentioned Fred or the Zagreb(?) player - I've yet to see a good in-depth examination of either of these cases.

 

[tantocomo]

Anyone got any thoughts, theories or knowledge about Leicester City? They've made remarkable progress into the unpenetrable top of the premier league so there are definite alarm bells. Since I've left the uk I haven't really kept up with football so there may be other, additional reasons that I don't know about, but any input welcome.

 

[motty89]

Anyone got any thoughts, theories or knowledge about Leicester City? They've made remarkable progress into the unpenetrable top of the premier league so there are definite alarm bells. Since I've left the uk I haven't really kept up with football so there may be other, additional reasons that I don't know about, but any input welcome.

their amazing form started with the last 9 games of last season. In their first 29 games they got 19 points(4W, 7D, 18L) then in the last 9 matches 22 points(7W, 1D, 1L) and have carried it on this season. Looking on their club website no one seems to have any dodgy associations(although they could be working with 'consultants').
Anyone know where you can get stats like distance covered, sprints made etc for last seasons matches? would be interesting to compare the end of the season with the rest.

 

[blackcat]

 

[blackcat]

look, its Tyler Hamilton's autogous blooddoping positive and one of the Ronaldo's above has a dead infant brother in utero. manifest uterus in this case. Ronaldo can do pudenda.

 

[jsem94]

Ronaldo's body is very possible to reach naturally. Also, that picture is photoshopped AF.

 

[blackcat]

I think I told sniper this, funny in Italy with Juve, both the dutchies get done for doping Davids and Jaap Stam, Edgar Allan Poe Davids... gotta think they are getting positive hits in Serie A in the early 2000s, but they throw the Dutchies to the wolves