Doping in XC skiing

[Cloxxki]

Was I giving the impression of thinking she dopes alone? She may just be part of the NO program, and have her own thing on the side. Every time she is a alone with her hubby is suspect after reading the above. The only worse possible hubster in this respect than a failed athlete is a previosuly dominant athlete
If Johaug is clean, she sure is not aware of Boergens indiscretions, or she is an Oscar level character actor who does her own stunts.

 

[BullsFan22]

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If you think Bjørgen is doping all the time, she'd have to be pretty talented at hiding it, the team does stay together most of the year, and she shares a double room with Johaug on trips if I remember correctly. I understand well why she is suspected though, especially her breaks from world cup can seem suspicious. Of course you could argue the whole team is doped up, then I'd say they are REALLY talented at hiding it, since absolutely nothing has come out over the years, no dodgy doctors, no unhappy team members telling it all.

As to her not starting to lose sprints, she was #10 today. In the olympics she was knocked out in the semi-finals. She is usually the last one after the first 20 meters these days, but the "sprint" is usually a pretty hard event comparable to a 1500m run. It is nothing new that "sprinters" can do well in mass start over a long distance.

I thought Lance was pretty talented at hiding at as well, wouldn't you say? Sure, he had lot's of help, but that was part of the talent, LOL.

 

[Saint Unix]

But there were always indications that Lance was on the sauce. Reports of positive tests, his affiliation with Ferrari, former team mates getting busted and telling on him.

With the Norwegian XC team there's been zilch, and they've been dominating for decades.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I thought Lance was pretty talented at hiding at as well, wouldn't you say? Sure, he had lot's of help, but that was part of the talent, LOL.

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I'd actually say he was not that talented, as the stories and rumours kept popping up. UCI did the hard part of the work for him. There are still 0 stories from anybody, and 0 discredited doctors connected to Norwegian cross-country skiing. In this case people judge solely by performance.

It's almost laughable how people judge the combined skier here, seriously a miniature-sport on a world basis, and a sport were Norwegians have been known all along to put priority on cross country over jumping. No big surprise that we have some performers in this dicipline.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I think it's mostly worrisome (insult of our intellligence) that a sprint specialist gets this good at 30k's without starting to lose sprints. As narrow as the women's side of the sport is, that's rare to see combined in one person, if it wasn't that way from the get-go.
It's not like ski sprinters are lazy atheletes who don't log any miles.
Are we really to believe she has a better power to weight than Johaug, with that added bulk, and doesn't suffer from extra oxygen uptake to feed the fast-twitch fibres she's obviously got in spades?
Bjoergen is much more scary than Northug or even Cologna in terms of dominance. Northug CAN be broken on long hills. Bjoergen (in terms of build the anti-climber) cannot be broken even by Johaug (the ultimate climber). Not normal.

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Today's "Vasaloppet" over 90km was one by a former sprinter. Second place was also taken by a former sprinter. Both of them have big upper bodies.

It seems to me that some people have not noticed the transformation in skier-bodies from the old days. Would the same people think that a long distance swimmer should be thin like a Froome ?
What about the chines guy winning the 1500m swimming in the olympics: https://www.google.no/search?q=sun+...-and-hosts-still-seeking-first-medal;1051;768
Looks pretty muscular to me.

Not to mention that none of the posters that are outraged that "sprinters" can win a 30km or 50km, would raise an eyebrow over a cycling-sprinter winning a 200km race.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well Vassa Loppet is like a Grand Tour sprint stage really.

 

[Cloxxki]

10km individual today in Finland.
Very typical result, 4 Norwegians in the top-5, with Kalla 2nd.
9th at 1'05 Makarainen the super fast biathlete who doesn't need to train classic. As third Finn.
Perhaps Biathlon is just cleaner? Or didn't Kaisa try?
These kinds of races are where for instance her male equivalent Lars Berger takes medals in XC.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

10km individual today in Finland.
Very typical result, 4 Norwegians in the top-5, with Kalla 2nd.
9th at 1'05 Makarainen the super fast biathlete who doesn't need to train classic. As third Finn.
Perhaps Biathlon is just cleaner? Or didn't Kaisa try?
These kinds of races are where for instance her male equivalent Lars Berger takes medals in XC.

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I have to wonder where you are from. Makarainen equivalent to Berger really - come on. Berger can't shoot, but skis like a superman at times, makarainen has her strength in the shooting.

4 Norwegians in top 5 in a 10km freestyle race is not typical, however, Norwegians doing well at low altitude and high temperature is very typical. How come we are better at low altitude, can't be the epo that the finns have been busted for numerous times now can it ? That should give even better advantage at high altitude.

Biathlon testing-regime is known to be quite poor, especially OOCT is very sparse.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Well Vassa Loppet is like a Grand Tour sprint stage really.

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As is just about every mass start in modern cross country, with short laps repeated endlessly, and short climbs with good recovery time on the following downhill.

 

[Cloxxki]

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I have to wonder where you are from. Makarainen equivalent to Berger really - come on. Berger can't shoot, but skis like a superman at times, makarainen has her strength in the shooting.

4 Norwegians in top 5 in a 10km freestyle race is not typical, however, Norwegians doing well at low altitude and high temperature is very typical. How come we are better at low altitude, can't be the epo that the finns have been busted for numerous times now can it ? That should give even better advantage at high altitude.

Biathlon testing-regime is known to be quite poor, especially OOCT is very sparse.

Doesn't matter where I am from, if we are obviously watching different realities of these sports and protagonists.

 

[roundabout]

I am with Cloxxki, it is certainly a different reality where Makarainen's strength is shooting

 

[Libertine Seguros]

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I have to wonder where you are from. Makarainen equivalent to Berger really - come on. Berger can't shoot, but skis like a superman at times, makarainen has her strength in the shooting.

Kaisa Mäkäräinen was the overall fastest skier in the 2012-13 season, albeit only because Gössner had a few races late in the season where she was ill and/or fatigued, as pre-World Championships she was easily the quickest. Kaisa Mäkäräinen had a shooting percentage last season of 75% and is the 59th best shooter this season.

She isn't as unpredictable in the range as Lars Berger, no, but saying she has her strength in the shooting is a fallacy.

 

[roundabout]

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As is just about every mass start in modern cross country, with short laps repeated endlessly, and short climbs with good recovery time on the following downhill.

Not really. Vasa Loppet is a lot flatter than any WC race in vertical meters climbed per km of distance. And Sälen is over 200 meters higher in altitude than Mora.

Converting the fastest average speed over 90km to 50km would mean a time of 2:02. And that with 40 extra km of distance.

But you probably know all that and just being obtuse for the sake of it.

 

[neineinei]

http://www.svt.se/ug/kommande-6

SVT's Uppdrag gransknings new program about skiing, blood values and doping will be sent on Wednesday.

Uppdrag gransknig has been given access to a unique material, with thousands of blood tests over several years during the 00s. There are blood tests that give a dark image of the sport. Especially of the Olympics in Salt Lake City in 2002.

- I don't think any of the contests were clean, says Professor Don Catlin, who was then in charge of the anti-doping work.

 

[the sceptic]

http://www.svt.se/ug/kommande-6

SVT's Uppdrag gransknings new program about skiing, blood values and doping will be sent on Wednesday.

thanks for the heads up, should be a good one.

Norwegians are probably sweating now

 

[neineinei]

Until recently, the IOC stored samples for eight years, allowing for retesting if authorities obtain information and more sophisticated detection methods become available. Under the new World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) code, the window for storing samples has now been increased to 10 years to further deter potential cheats.

Still, authorities have waited just four years to go back and re-analyze some samples from the winter Olympics in Canada.

"We will target the samples from Vancouver who we have very specific intelligence about, specific substances that might have been abused for which we might have different tests that we can do," IOC medical director Dr. Richard Budgett told CBC.

http://olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/article=olympic-doping-drugs-vancouver-sochi.html

 

[MustIski]

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How come we are better at low altitude, can't be the epo that the finns have been busted for numerous times now can it ? That should give even better advantage at high altitude.

Biathlon testing-regime is known to be quite poor, especially OOCT is very sparse.

Numerous times? Only one international level finn has been busted with EPO (Kaisa Varis).

According to news Wada is still waiting for some time, until they are releasing the results of Torino 2006 retrospective testing. Rumours about HGH positives (estonians?) are strong, but the scientific backbone for the limits isn´t ready.

I don´t believe that much is found from the Vancouver 2010 test. Maybe one or two HGH positives from the usual suspects. Much more interesting would be retrospective testing done to the out of competition tests, but that is never going to happen.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Numerous times? Only one international level finn has been busted with EPO (Kaisa Varis).

According to news Wada is still waiting for some time, until they are releasing the results of Torino 2006 retrospective testing. Rumours about HGH positives (estonians?) are strong, but the scientific backbone for the limits isn´t ready.

I don´t believe that much is found from the Vancouver 2010 test. Maybe one or two HGH positives from the usual suspects. Much more interesting would be retrospective testing done to the out of competition tests, but that is never going to happen.

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Kaisa Varis - EPO
The whole finnish team in 2000 - caught for HEMOHES, masking agent for EPO - very strong indication of epo use. The athletes never came back on the same level afterwards except for Kuitunen who had great success.

http://www.helsinki.fi/lehdet/uh/201c.htm

Doping coach from 2000 mr. Riski who is banned from olympic competition for life, has been coaching stars Saarinen and Kuitunen, giving a bad impression that doping is not that big a deal for the finns.

How many times has miss Varis been busted again ? Oh, 3 times, twice for epo, and once for masking epo along with the rest of the team.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Not really. Vasa Loppet is a lot flatter than any WC race in vertical meters climbed per km of distance. And Sälen is over 200 meters higher in altitude than Mora.

Converting the fastest average speed over 90km to 50km would mean a time of 2:02. And that with 40 extra km of distance.

But you probably know all that and just being obtuse for the sake of it.

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I know vasaloppet is flatter of course, but would you disagree on the change in courses in ordinary world cup ? The short laps means that there is only rarely really long uphill sections. And this is making it harder for the pure endurance athletes, like Sødergren or Johaug to win anything, because they are too slow on the downhill and flat, even though their light weight and endurance give them advantage over the Bjørgen/Northug types uphill.

The Holmenkollen 50km is coming up soon, it used to be a huge endurance test with 2x25km lap an interval start. It is no surprice that it becomes a totally different race, even though laps are longer than most place I guess the longest is 12km now, and with a mass start.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Kaisa Mäkäräinen was the overall fastest skier in the 2012-13 season, albeit only because Gössner had a few races late in the season where she was ill and/or fatigued, as pre-World Championships she was easily the quickest. Kaisa Mäkäräinen had a shooting percentage last season of 75% and is the 59th best shooter this season.

She isn't as unpredictable in the range as Lars Berger, no, but saying she has her strength in the shooting is a fallacy.

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I was wrong about Makarainen, I guess the last laps by female Berger fooled me, my bad.
Back to the original argument about Makarainen just making it into top 10, while Lars Berger was killing it in the world cup. Lets check out Bergers results:
2013 - 9th in the national championship
2012 - no international start
2011 - started twice on 15 free in world cup, placed 8 and 13.
He had his win in 2007, and apart from that a lot of starts, and not many podiums at all.
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/athlete-biography.html?sector=CC&competitorid=73895&type=result

 

[alternator]

------------------------------------------------
Kaisa Varis - EPO
The whole finnish team in 2000 - caught for HEMOHES, masking agent for EPO - very strong indication of epo use. The athletes never came back on the same level afterwards except for Kuitunen who had great success.

http://www.helsinki.fi/lehdet/uh/201c.htm

Doping coach from 2000 mr. Riski who is banned from olympic competition for life, has been coaching stars Saarinen and Kuitunen, giving a bad impression that doping is not that big a deal for the finns.

How many times has miss Varis been busted again ? Oh, 3 times, twice for epo, and once for masking epo along with the rest of the team.

Not the entire Finnish team, for example Sami Repo and Pirjo Manninen were found clean when most everyone else got busted. IMO Repo is kind of a cult hero, as the single 1990s XC skier that might have been clean based on test results and comments by known-dopers (Isometsä *before* Lahti 2001: "Repo has been the best clean skier for years", which I guess should have raised some questions...). I assume there were others in other countries, too, but he was the Bassons-type that came up shining after a big doping bust.

Varis is the girlfriend of a Mr Kyrö, I think her doping knowledge remains circa 2001 and therefore she keeps getting busted.

On the question of a doping culture, I actually think the general Finnish mentality is fairly seriously against doping these days, but it is sometimes difficult not to give second chances to former or suspected dopers because the squad depth has not been great and because the shut-out persons can usually raise a media row if they want to continue competing "after they have served their sentence". The two main examples below:

Varis got accepted to the biathlon squad after the XC skiing team would not touch her (media campaign: why single out Varis?) - I guess because the women's biathlon squad was really really weak after Mäkäräinen and Laukkanen so she got in by default after good results in the IBU cup - and promptly got busted after her first biathlon win. Then Juha Lallukka was left out of a Finnish XC squad and there was talk of odd blood values. A media campaign followed where Lallukka protested his innocence and implied a conspiracy by the foreign-born coach - and as a result I think he was taken into the next squad because of decent results. Result: a good 4th or 5th place in the world championships and a HGH bust (disputed) next year.

 

[alternator]

10km individual today in Finland.
Very typical result, 4 Norwegians in the top-5, with Kalla 2nd.
9th at 1'05 Makarainen the super fast biathlete who doesn't need to train classic. As third Finn.
Perhaps Biathlon is just cleaner? Or didn't Kaisa try?
These kinds of races are where for instance her male equivalent Lars Berger takes medals in XC.

The differences between the women's skiers after the big 3 are not so big, and the Norwegians clearly had comparatively great skis in Lahti, both men and women.

Mäkäräinen top 10 World Cup is pretty much the expected result, basically in the fairly big group of women after Björgen/Johaug/Kalla and similar strength to the best Finnish skaters while tiring a little more over a 10 km loop than the others (probably because of training differences). Same comparative result as last year's championships, in other words.

I think Gössner and especially Domracheva have a slightly higher potential capacity than Mäkäräinen, just the others are not always in their best shape. I do believe an in-form Domracheva could challenge an in-form Kalla (talk about a clash between beautiful skating styles...). Björgen could be more difficult to beat.

 

[alternator]

---------------------------------

Today's "Vasaloppet" over 90km was one by a former sprinter. Second place was also taken by a former sprinter. Both of them have big upper bodies.

It seems to me that some people have not noticed the transformation in skier-bodies from the old days. Would the same people think that a long distance swimmer should be thin like a Froome ?
What about the chines guy winning the 1500m swimming in the olympics: https://www.google.no/search?q=sun+...-and-hosts-still-seeking-first-medal;1051;768
Looks pretty muscular to me.

Not to mention that none of the posters that are outraged that "sprinters" can win a 30km or 50km, would raise an eyebrow over a cycling-sprinter winning a 200km race.

Upper body strength seems to be very important in skiing these days, and a double poling race like Vasaloppet suits the former sprinters pretty well.

I do agree about the changing physiques. I think it was around 2005 or so when I noticed the Norwegian sprinters looking very much more bulked up than before, and also many from the new generation of distance racers (Cologna, Legkov, even Hellner in his way) have more defined physiques (I don't mean bulky or really muscular!) than the oldtimers used to have.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The differences between the women's skiers after the big 3 are not so big, and the Norwegians clearly had comparatively great skis in Lahti, both men and women.

Mäkäräinen top 10 World Cup is pretty much the expected result, basically in the fairly big group of women after Björgen/Johaug/Kalla and similar strength to the best Finnish skaters while tiring a little more over a 10 km loop than the others (probably because of training differences). Same comparative result as last year's championships, in other words.

I think Gössner and especially Domracheva have a slightly higher potential capacity than Mäkäräinen, just the others are not always in their best shape. I do believe an in-form Domracheva could challenge an in-form Kalla (talk about a clash between beautiful skating styles...). Björgen could be more difficult to beat.

Last year's Val di Fiemme 10k had Gössner 4th and Mäkäräinen 14th. Of course the biathletes were coming off a peak, at least in theory, with their World Championships having been a couple of weeks earlier, whereas these were the events the XC specialists had peaked for. Arguably this result from Lahti would be more appropriately representative as everybody of significance would hope to peak for the Olympics so should theoretically be around the same point in the form curve.

 

[MrRoboto]

Apparently Anders Aukland is mentioned by name and questioned in 'Blodracet 2'. They claim he was on FIS' internal list of suspicious riders around the 2002 Olympics with 18 other racers (12 men and 7 women). Aukland is a classical specialist and did very well that season, and was one of the biggest favorites to take the 15 km and 50km in Salt Lake City, but did relatively poorly in both. Veerpalu crushed everyone in the 15 km, and Mühlegg took the 50 km.

'Uppdrag Granskning' also found blood values of 4 male swedish racers which they think are suspicious. Those racers are not named though.