Doping in XC skiing

[MrRoboto]

We know the values of the two top men (14,7 and 15,3), and they are relatively normal.

Mühlegg seems to have ~15,9, which isn't very suspicious in itself.

I call bull**** on that statement.

 

[Discgear]

A list of "suspicious skiers" compiled by Stray-Gundersen was published (without his consent) by a journalist in a book in 2002.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/04/08/sport/ski/langrenn/andrus_veerpalu/16113928/

Of course it was no suspicious skiers from Norway and Sweden in the book by the Norwegian journalist Dag Vidar Hanstad. It follows the usual pattern that every one beating Norwegians in XC-skiing is on dope. The book is even called "Seier'n er vår" - the Victory is ours!

The 60% mentioned above tells another story.

This article is also telling another story http://www.norwaypost.no/index.php/business/62/13899:

Stray-Gundersen has completed a report which indicates that almost all of the best athletes in the 2001 WC and 2002 Olympics had blood levels higher than normal. That would include several Norwegians too.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Having allowed the Olympics to pass before opening the B-samples, presumably for the sake of controversy, Starykh and Iourieva's B-samples have been confirmed positive. Both tested positive for EPO, so it's pretty cut and dried on the doping/deliberation scale (no room for any contamination arguments à la Sachenbacher-Stehle's methylhexanamine positive). Second time for the same thing for Iourieva too.

 

[Cloxxki]

Bjoergen had good skis all race it seemed, Johaug for some reason hardly got a good kick in. For Johaug to lose with such bad luck with skis is somewhat plausible. But for the rest of the field to be gapped in such a matter by the single most muscular woman in all of the sport...
It's not like some fitness girl running a marathon for kicks. It's a monster of a 65kg body builder making the rest look lazy in the longest XC discipline on the World Cuo.
I can't fault Bjoergen's technique or devotion, but come on, it's the world cup and Olympics. With all those ungs on sticks top specimen.

 

[BullsFan22]

Bjoergen had good skis all race it seemed, Johaug for some reason hardly got a good kick in. For Johaug to lose with such bad luck with skis is somewhat plausible. But for the rest of the field to be gapped in such a matter by the single most muscular woman in all of the sport...
It's not like some fitness girl running a marathon for kicks. It's a monster of a 65kg body builder making the rest look lazy in the longest XC discipline on the World Cuo.
I can't fault Bjoergen's technique or devotion, but come on, it's the world cup and Olympics. With all those ungs on sticks top specimen.

I know the women's field is that much weaker than the men's, but it reminded me of the 30km skate mass start from SLC 2002, where after only a couple km, Muhlegg broke away from the field and never let up, in fact, he seemed to get faster and faster as the k's ticked by. A few of them tried to stick with the pace, among them was Elofsson who was the last one standing behind Muhlegg, but couldn't match it and as a result dropped further down the pack and eventually dropped out of the race. Elofsson never recovered from that race, mentally that is (although physically he was broken for the rest of those olympics). Sure, Muhlegg doped, and so did Hoffman (as we found out a couple years ago) and in all likelihood so did Botvinov (officially 2nd after Muhlegg's DQ, technically 1st with Hoffman found out, but more than likely himself a DQ...). Who were the next guys in line? Skjeldal, Piller Cottrer, Bjoerndalen....Not exactly Moncoutie, Bessans, Evans...

Anyway, to the women's 30km from yesterday. Bjoergen and Johaug break away literally after 5 minutes of racing, and then slowly but surely Johaug broke (probably due to skis, but Bjoergen definitely wasn't messing around). I don't know, Bjoergen, Johaug (and Kowalczyk when she is healthy and racing to her potential) are making a mockery of the women's field. 3rd place was 2 minutes out yesterday, and the rest of the field was coming in dribs and drabs. Reminds me of Armstrong and Ullrich battling it out at Alpe D'Huez or Luz Ardiden, like Pac Men, with the next guy seemingly minutes behind. Surely, surely, the women's field isn't THAT weak?!?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

They need more distance races on the women's calendar. Far too many short distance races make it too easy to specialise in the short races because somebody who can do decently in a sprint and be pretty good over 5-10km can still be very competitive in the overall World Cup without needing all of the endurance.

As I've said in many of my complaints about the proliferation of the sprint to the point where there are 11 sprint races this season and only 14 of all non-sprint types on the World Cup calendar, whether classic or skate, 5k or 30k, we are entering a point in the sport where the distance specialist is almost obsolete. Very few races of longer than 10k on the women's calendar. The temptation for an aspiring skier to want to become somebody like Kikkan Randall, a sprint specialist who has developed enough to be able to compete in non-sprint races over short to mid distances, is much, much greater than the temptation that same skier has to want to become somebody like Kristin Størmer Steira, a more traditional skier whose niche lies primarily with endurance and who becomes more competitive in the longer events as (Bjørgen excepted) the more strength-based athletes fade.

Personally I think that's a bad development for the sport, and it's hard to reverse because the weaker the field in terms of those who can compete with Bjørgen/Johaug/Kowalczyk over 30k, the less of a spectacle they will seem as opposed to the much wider field of contenders in the game of chance and explosivity that is the sprint competition, and the more cross-country skiing will cease to be cross-country at all, with mostly short loops and fewer races where the time to develop a story to the race is part of the fun... and fewer reasons for an aspiring racer to become a Steira or a Johaug. Weirdly enough, the distance specialist is being kept alive at present by the advent of the stage race and the points paid in the World Cup for those - another, even more recent, innovation that, like the sprint, is as creative and interesting as it is artificial and dangerous if mis- or over-used.

 

[Cloxxki]

Well at least in the Tour de Ski it's impossible for a sprinter to do well. They lack more in endurance than they can win in speed. Not that that's a good thing for the TdS.

Yeah, women's races are too short and I've labeled that as sexist before. Sometimes less than half the distance while women are more oten built for endurance than for speed. XC is now cherrypicking fast twitch females. The slow twich ones can go to the Swix Ski Classics. Or are perhaps told XC is not their thing.
In speed skating it's similar. The women don't do the 10000m but in stead a 3000m on the first day of an allround tournament. Which makes it common for a sprint world champion to get an Olympic medal in the 3000m, being the second-longest raced. It's over in 4 minutes, 7 for the 5000m. Is that endurance?
An XC sprint though takes 3-4 minutes. Is that already too long to be selecting the very most fast-twitch women and make a true divide with endurance?
A 70-80 minute 30km (of which several minutes in downhill recovery) is not really "endurance" of course. If I compare it to my MTB races...it took me 90 minutes to deplete glycogen and go into full fat burning mode. A 2-hour race was a totally different game than 70 minutes for this reason, at least to me. In MTB, my capacity was to put in burst off extra high speed, like an opening lap (15-20min) or second laps (having cleared traffic).
If they'd make the sprints even shorter, to give sprint specialists more of a shot against the Northugs and Dario's, that might make the TdS more desirable for them also. It won't stop Bjoergen from winning sprints AND 30k's probably. Although, usually she starts a sprint slow. Is that partially because they doesn't digest a fast opening minute well perhaps?

 

[BullsFan22]

Well at least in the Tour de Ski it's impossible for a sprinter to do well. They lack more in endurance than they can win in speed. Not that that's a good thing for the TdS.

Yeah, women's races are too short and I've labeled that as sexist before. Sometimes less than half the distance while women are more oten built for endurance than for speed. XC is now cherrypicking fast twitch females. The slow twich ones can go to the Swix Ski Classics. Or are perhaps told XC is not their thing.
In speed skating it's similar. The women don't do the 10000m but in stead a 3000m on the first day of an allround tournament. Which makes it common for a sprint world champion to get an Olympic medal in the 3000m, being the second-longest raced. It's over in 4 minutes, 7 for the 5000m. Is that endurance?
An XC sprint though takes 3-4 minutes. Is that already too long to be selecting the very most fast-twitch women and make a true divide with endurance?
A 70-80 minute 30km (of which several minutes in downhill recovery) is not really "endurance" of course. If I compare it to my MTB races...it took me 90 minutes to deplete glycogen and go into full fat burning mode. A 2-hour race was a totally different game than 70 minutes for this reason, at least to me. In MTB, my capacity was to put in burst off extra high speed, like an opening lap (15-20min) or second laps (having cleared traffic).
If they'd make the sprints even shorter, to give sprint specialists more of a shot against the Northugs and Dario's, that might make the TdS more desirable for them also. It won't stop Bjoergen from winning sprints AND 30k's probably. Although, usually she starts a sprint slow. Is that partially because they doesn't digest a fast opening minute well perhaps?

In my opinion, increasing the distances (from say 30 to 40 or even 50) would be a bad idea. The gaps are big enough as is. I am just hoping there will be a level playing field sometime in the future and women's races are as close as the men's. Whether it's doping or not, I am sorry to say, women's races, especially distance races, are quite boring. Just my opinion.

 

[Cloxxki]

In my opinion, increasing the distances (from say 30 to 40 or even 50) would be a bad idea. The gaps are big enough as is. I am just hoping there will be a level playing field sometime in the future and women's races are as close as the men's. Whether it's doping or not, I am sorry to say, women's races, especially distance races, are quite boring. Just my opinion.

To me even the men's mass starts are boring. Like a flat Tour de France stage where no-one wants to break.

I like to think that if 50km XC was a regular event for women, there would be more contenders. Who'd never do sprints. Like Lucas Bauer and Johaug, they barely ever quality in a sprint. Bauer has stopped trying it seems. If they'd up it to 50km, and do it more often, it could attract specialists. Someone like Kalla might do better in 50k that 30k if she'd drop sprinting altogether.

I do enjoy the sprinting more actually, makes for better watching and more surprises. perhaps it should just be shorter still, more extreme. Say a 60kph descend into the long finish straight. So they'll need to manage their drafting and slow down, rather than wind it up. One reallly hard hill, some twisties and that easy downhill could make for a nice course. We'll see them freeskating 50kph across the line. Many other short courses possible. Like stadium cross, never out of sight for spectators. Build some good hills. Bit like moto cross in stadiums.

 

[Trond Vidar]

They need more distance races on the women's calendar. Far too many short distance races make it too easy to specialise in the short races because somebody who can do decently in a sprint and be pretty good over 5-10km can still be very competitive in the overall World Cup without needing all of the endurance.

As I've said in many of my complaints about the proliferation of the sprint to the point where there are 11 sprint races this season and only 14 of all non-sprint types on the World Cup calendar, whether classic or skate, 5k or 30k, we are entering a point in the sport where the distance specialist is almost obsolete. Very few races of longer than 10k on the women's calendar. The temptation for an aspiring skier to want to become somebody like Kikkan Randall, a sprint specialist who has developed enough to be able to compete in non-sprint races over short to mid distances, is much, much greater than the temptation that same skier has to want to become somebody like Kristin Størmer Steira, a more traditional skier whose niche lies primarily with endurance and who becomes more competitive in the longer events as (Bjørgen excepted) the more strength-based athletes fade.

Personally I think that's a bad development for the sport, and it's hard to reverse because the weaker the field in terms of those who can compete with Bjørgen/Johaug/Kowalczyk over 30k, the less of a spectacle they will seem as opposed to the much wider field of contenders in the game of chance and explosivity that is the sprint competition, and the more cross-country skiing will cease to be cross-country at all, with mostly short loops and fewer races where the time to develop a story to the race is part of the fun... and fewer reasons for an aspiring racer to become a Steira or a Johaug. Weirdly enough, the distance specialist is being kept alive at present by the advent of the stage race and the points paid in the World Cup for those - another, even more recent, innovation that, like the sprint, is as creative and interesting as it is artificial and dangerous if mis- or over-used.

I agree to this. The short distances over the season is making it easy. For those who haven't skied in Holmenkollen, it's a damn hard course. There is absolutely no rest, and the downhills are extremely demanding. The continued climb from Holmenkollen to Frognerseteren is long and hard. From my experience the only "rest section" is the stadium section.

I don't think most of the girls are strong enough for this course.

 

[Discgear]

I don't think most of the girls are strong enough for this course.

Obviously not nearly strong enough compared to Bjoergen or having the stamina of Johaug. The race yesterday was ridiculous. It really looked very similar to Salt Lake 12 years ago.

 

[Trond Vidar]

According to this article in VG http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/artikkel.php?artid=3193748 (haven't found the original article in Helsingin Sanomat) 60% of the skiers in places 1-15 had abnormal blood values in that race in Kuopio November 2001. Scientist dr. Jim Stray-Gundersen was the source. VG said in the article that they had failed to get in contact with Stray-Gundersen before the article was published. It's quite amazing that they didn't do a follow up of this sensational stuff!

VG said it was unclear if Helsingin Sanomat meant only the men’s race or both the women’s 10K and men’s 15K. Women’s race was won by Bente Skari with another 3 Norwegian ladies making it into the top 15, among them Marit Bjoergen.

For Sweden and Elofsson this start of the World Cup season 2001 was a big shock. The Olympics in Salt Lake was coming up in a few months and to see this Norwegian dominance must have been devastating for the self-confidence. For the Norwegians this race was extremely important. To just make it into the Olympic team you had to deliver in the opening WC race, and so they did!

1 AUKLAND Anders 1972 NOR 38:55.0 0.00
2 JEVNE Erling 1966 NOR 39:03.3 +8.3
3 ESTIL Frode 1972 NOR 39:28.3 +33.3
4 HJELMESET Odd-Bjoern 1971 NOR 39:49.7 +54.7
5 SKJELDAL Kristen 1967 NOR 39:57.8 +1:02.8
6 ALSGAARD Thomas 1972 NOR 40:00.8 +1:05.8
7 BJONVIKEN Tore 1975 NOR 40:02.9 +1:07.9
8 BJERVIG Espen 1972 NOR 40:04.0 +1:09.0
9 ELOFSSON Per 1977 SWE 40:05.6 +1:10.6
10 MUEHLEGG Johann 1970 SPA 40:08.3 +1:13.3
11 REPO Sami 1971 FIN 40:20.4 +1:25.4
12 MAE Jaak 1972 EST 40:20.6 +1:25.6
13 ROTCHEV Vassili 1980 RUS 40:23.2 +1:28.2
14 IVANOV Mikhail 1977 RUS 40:25.3 +1:30.3
15 FREDRIKSSON Mathias 1973 SWE 40:29.6 +1:34.6

To me, this is the major lead that any vampire should follow. If there was 60% dopers on this list (+- some in the womens), then either
a) The Norwegians produced some magic performances this day, or
b) did something very illegal and forgot to adjust the dose

unless this is down to a combination of early and amazing form, insane skies and total neglect of form and skis from the other nations I just don't see how Tore and Espen would clean out the rest of the international field.

Edit: Personal note: I have trained many times with Tore as a junior.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Obviously not nearly strong enough compared to Bjoergen or having the stamina of Johaug. The race yesterday was ridiculous. It really looked very similar to Salt Lake 12 years ago.

My point exactly. Most are not used to this. Johaug trains here all the time. Her apartment is under 1km from the stadium.

 

[BullsFan22]

To me even the men's mass starts are boring. Like a flat Tour de France stage where no-one wants to break.

I like to think that if 50km XC was a regular event for women, there would be more contenders. Who'd never do sprints. Like Lucas Bauer and Johaug, they barely ever quality in a sprint. Bauer has stopped trying it seems. If they'd up it to 50km, and do it more often, it could attract specialists. Someone like Kalla might do better in 50k that 30k if she'd drop sprinting altogether.

I do enjoy the sprinting more actually, makes for better watching and more surprises. perhaps it should just be shorter still, more extreme. Say a 60kph descend into the long finish straight. So they'll need to manage their drafting and slow down, rather than wind it up. One reallly hard hill, some twisties and that easy downhill could make for a nice course. We'll see them freeskating 50kph across the line. Many other short courses possible. Like stadium cross, never out of sight for spectators. Build some good hills. Bit like moto cross in stadiums.

Bauer was never good at sprinting. Just like Soedergren. Anyway, their best years are long gone. They can still pop a good result here or there (Soedergren at the Olympic 50km, Bauer Holmenkollen a couple days ago.) They are old now and pretty much done. I also don't think it has to do with sprinting or not sprinting. Kalla doesn't do that many sprints to begin with, yet when she does, she does fairly well. She's done well in sprints before, obviously in skating but also has had good classic sprint races as well. She's also very good at the end of distance races as well (see Olympic relay, or skiathlon or Liberec 2009 relay, to name a few...).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Dates for Aukland's blood values:
https://www.flashback.org/sp47882272

2001-2002

15,3 1,40 Kuopio 2001-11-25
16,5 1,70 Brussons 2001-12-12
16,3 1,70 Davos 2001-12-14
16,6 2,00 Davos 2001-12-15
16,1 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-04
16,6 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-05
16,1 1,30 Salt Lake City 2002-02-10
17,0 1,20 Salt Lake City 2002-02-12
16,7 1,70 Salt Lake City 2002-02-17
16,0 1,00 Stockholm 2002-03-05
15,9 1,00 Oslo 2002-03-16

2002-2003

15,0 2,00 Italien 2002-10-19
14,7 1,30 Kiruna 2002-11-22
15,1 1,40 Cogne 2002-12-13
14,6 0,80 Otepää 2003-01-11
16,1 1,80 Val di Fiemme 2003-02-15

2004-2005

14,6 1,00 Norge 2004-11-08
16,1 0,60 Gällivare 2004-11-29
15,3 2,10 Val di Fiemme 2004-12-10
15,7 1,77 Oberstdorf 2005-02-23

2005-2006

15,5 0,90 Beitostölen 2005-11-18
16,2 1,40 Pragelato 2006

 

[neineinei]

Dates for Aukland's blood values:
https://www.flashback.org/sp47882272

2001-2002

15,3 1,40 Kuopio 2001-11-25
16,5 1,70 Brussons 2001-12-12
16,3 1,70 Davos 2001-12-14
16,6 2,00 Davos 2001-12-15
16,1 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-04
16,6 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-05
16,1 1,30 Salt Lake City 2002-02-10
17,0 1,20 Salt Lake City 2002-02-12
16,7 1,70 Salt Lake City 2002-02-17
16,0 1,00 Stockholm 2002-03-05
15,9 1,00 Oslo 2002-03-16

2002-2003

15,0 2,00 Italien 2002-10-19
14,7 1,30 Kiruna 2002-11-22
15,1 1,40 Cogne 2002-12-13
14,6 0,80 Otepää 2003-01-11
16,1 1,80 Val di Fiemme 2003-02-15

2004-2005

14,6 1,00 Norge 2004-11-08
16,1 0,60 Gällivare 2004-11-29
15,3 2,10 Val di Fiemme 2004-12-10
15,7 1,77 Oberstdorf 2005-02-23

2005-2006

15,5 0,90 Beitostölen 2005-11-18
16,2 1,40 Pragelato 2006

FIS tested him a lot in 2001/2002, ,then they lost interest? Or lots of the tests in 2001/2002 were done by Stray-Gundersen & co for their research, and when they were done there were a lot less blood testing in cross country skiing?

Didn't FIS test in the off season or even out of competition?

 

[Shardi]

Interesting that his retic values are fairly high in every test prior to the olympics, then suddenly its down to 1.00 in the two remaining competitions after the olympics.

One would almost think that his program halted after the olympics, quite surprising... .. . yep

 

[Bavarianrider]

Dates for Aukland's blood values:
https://www.flashback.org/sp47882272

2001-2002

15,3 1,40 Kuopio 2001-11-25
16,5 1,70 Brussons 2001-12-12
16,3 1,70 Davos 2001-12-14
16,6 2,00 Davos 2001-12-15
16,1 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-04
16,6 1,50 Val di Fiemme 2002-01-05
16,1 1,30 Salt Lake City 2002-02-10
17,0 1,20 Salt Lake City 2002-02-12
16,7 1,70 Salt Lake City 2002-02-17
16,0 1,00 Stockholm 2002-03-05
15,9 1,00 Oslo 2002-03-16

2002-2003

15,0 2,00 Italien 2002-10-19
14,7 1,30 Kiruna 2002-11-22
15,1 1,40 Cogne 2002-12-13
14,6 0,80 Otepää 2003-01-11
16,1 1,80 Val di Fiemme 2003-02-15

2004-2005

14,6 1,00 Norge 2004-11-08
16,1 0,60 Gällivare 2004-11-29
15,3 2,10 Val di Fiemme 2004-12-10
15,7 1,77 Oberstdorf 2005-02-23

2005-2006

15,5 0,90 Beitostölen 2005-11-18
16,2 1,40 Pragelato 2006

Must have been doing a special stone grinding technique in 01/02

 

[Discgear]

For all you XC-ski lovers, it has been som truly amazing experiences last few days. To see two clean Norwegian skiers pull of one Mühlegg performance each, in less than one week!

 

[BullsFan22]

For all you XC-ski lovers, it has been som truly amazing experiences last few days. To see two clean Norwegian skiers pull of one Mühlegg performance each, in less than one week!

Yeah, it must be nice to be doped to the gills and to know you won't get in trouble. I must say though, I am impressed with Richardsson. He's been on fire really since the start of the Olympics. Hasn't missed a beat, and to inflict such damage on a pretty strong field so early in the race today (and in Holmenkollen last week) is pretty impressive. Legkov has carried the same form as well, Sundby hasn't skipped a beat all season (perhaps a question mark there?) and Harvey is gaining his form (I wonder if Wadsworth will question Legkov again for being clean, since Harvey has magically found his form and beat Legkov and Sundby after breaking away from everyone else??)

Interesting race developments since the Olympics. As far as the women as a whole are concerned, it's still a very weak field. The Norwegians are doing to the field what the Russian women did to the field in the 90's and early 2000's, maybe even more so, particularly that now there are sprints as well. The top half dozen women are leagues ahead of everyone else when it comes to distance races. Sure, you see an occasional surprise, but it's becoming more rare these days. Bjoergen, btw, says she wants to continue to 2018, and Kowalczyk isn't retiring after this year after all. Much to the chagrin of the rest of the field...

 

[Walkman]

Yeah, it must be nice to be doped to the gills and to know you won't get in trouble. I must say though, I am impressed with Richardsson. He's been on fire really since the start of the Olympics. Hasn't missed a beat, and to inflict such damage on a pretty strong field so early in the race today (and in Holmenkollen last week) is pretty impressive. Legkov has carried the same form as well, Sundby hasn't skipped a beat all season (perhaps a question mark there?) and Harvey is gaining his form (I wonder if Wadsworth will question Legkov again for being clean, since Harvey has magically found his form and beat Legkov and Sundby after breaking away from everyone else??)

Interesting race developments since the Olympics. As far as the women as a whole are concerned, it's still a very weak field. The Norwegians are doing to the field what the Russian women did to the field in the 90's and early 2000's, maybe even more so, particularly that now there are sprints as well. The top half dozen women are leagues ahead of everyone else when it comes to distance races. Sure, you see an occasional surprise, but it's becoming more rare these days. Bjoergen, btw, says she wants to continue to 2018, and Kowalczyk isn't retiring after this year after all. Much to the chagrin of the rest of the field...

This is kind of remarkable. The guy has been in great shape for every damn race, from the first race of the season, during Tour de Ski, during the Olympics and even now he is still one of the top dogs. That is beyond impressive. Not pointing fingers but it is a remarkable season.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Womans 30K in Holmenkollen

1) Marit Bjørgen, Norge 1.20.55,7
2) Therese Johaug, Norge +1.41,8
8) Kristin Størmer Steira, Norge +3.54,9
13) Heidi Weng +4.27,4
17) Marthe Kristoffersen +4.30,9

Same country. Can't be the famous stone grinding effect or the horrible Sochi waxing problems. Say what you want about Bjoergen but it takes some balls to simply destroy the rest of the field in this manner, a week when everyone talks about widespread doping in XC-skiing.

Bjoergen is amazing, to be able to keep that beautiful technique throughout the race takes some incredible strength. Johaugs skiing technique is laughable, still smashing rest of the field.

-------------
Bjørgen, Johaug, and Kowalczyk have dominated the field completely for years. Why anybody would compare them to Steira or Kristoffersen is a mystery to me.

How did you like Johaug's revenge on Bjørgen today ?

I'm surprised there are no comments on Jacobsen in here, hitting a lightpost last weekend, and pulling out of a race dizzy this weekend. The story behind the black armbands on the norwegian team in the first race in the olympics, is the death of her brother. Nothing is said about how he - an athlete able to train with top female skiers, suddenly died. This is pretty much 100% indication that he killed himself, it's how the press works here. He was also Johaug's ex. Dead on the opening day of the olympics.

By the way, Bjørgen's strength is a little exaggerated. But if she's taken anything I suspect something that bodybuilders use, or maybe even something that takes the fat off your body like Froome would use...

https://www.google.no/search?q=mari....no%2Fsport%2Fol%2Farticle1451253.ece;980;551

 

[Armchaircyclist]

This is kind of remarkable. The guy has been in great shape for every damn race, from the first race of the season, during Tour de Ski, during the Olympics and even now he is still one of the top dogs. That is beyond impressive. Not pointing fingers but it is a remarkable season.

---------
Just a note from Norway here - many still regard Sundby as a failure and somebody who will never win, because he did not get individual gold in the olympics.

He's in the press today, saying he wants more family-time next year, and wants to cut altitude-training, after 150 days at altitude this season ! He wants only one session of altitude training, or possibly none, as next year the championship is not at altitude, he thinks it will not be important where he does his training.

 

[Discgear]

Omertà 3

One common explanation from the Norwegian Ski Federation to the high blood values that has surrounded Norwegian xc-skiers during the 90s and last decade, has been successful high altitude training programs. Yes I know, it sounds strange, since the other argument has been that there hasn’t been anything but normal values in the Norwegian xc-skiing except high values due to malfunctioning hemocue equipment. It’s quite fascinating to hear those two contradictive arguments being put forward without embarrassment by the same persons.

One person was central in the development of the Norwegian High Altitude program, the American Jim Stray-Gundersen. He was employed by Olympiatoppen in 1997.

In 1996, Dr. Stray-Gundersen and his family were invited and moved to Oslo, Norway to work for The Norwegian School of Sport and The Norwegian Olympic Committee. His primary research was altitude training, performance training, and anti-doping work. He became director of the High Altitude Performance for the 2002 Olympic Games. Dr. Stray-Gundersen was a member of the 2002 Norwegian Olympic Team as an official member/physician for the team.
After the 2002 Olympic Games, Dr. Stray-Gundersen and his family moved to Park City, Utah. (1.)

In the publication "Living high-training low" (2.) from 1997, Stray-Gundersen together with Levine claims that you can reach considerable gain in HB values by living in high altitude during training periods, something that will be beneficial in competing at lower altitude. This is the scientist which the NSF (Norwegian Ski Federation) is leaning on when they claims that they could peak blood values to competitions by high altitude programs. The same Stray-Gundersen that was hired during some of the darkest championships ever in XC-skiing, Ramsau 1999, Lahti 2001 och Salt Lake 2002

There is just a big problem for Stray-Gundersen and the Norwegians, no research whatsoever have confirmed the article from 1997. In a publication from the University of Zurich 2013 by Robert A Jacobs the paper by Stray-Gundersen is more or less destroyed:

Some Quotes: Thus, the potential for LHTL [Living high, training low] to improve carrying capacity in elite athletes lacks probablility (Rasmussen et al., 2013; Robach and Lundby 2012) and reliability/consistency (Gore et al., 1998; Neya et al, 2007; Siebenmann et al., 2012).
Hitherto, primarily one study reports data that could reasonably be interpreted as an improvement in sea-level performance with LHTL, compared to a complementary sea-level group of athletes (Levine and Stray-Gundersen 1997). This study unfortunately did not blind either the researchers or the subjects and therefore cannot discount effects of either a placebo or nocebo effect on the outcome of the study.

This up to date research is of course not unknown to the well-funded and ambitious NSF, but it doesn’t stop them from referring to obsolete research in explaining high HB values among Norwegian skiers. The frustration of prof. Saltin in last year’s documentary and the following debate thus is perfectly explainable and coherent. One counterpart in the debate was former skiing coach Dag Kaas. Let us examine the connection between Kaas and Stray-Gundersen.

Before Salt Lake City Olympics in 2002, Norwegian ski star Bente Skari made an ambitious High Altitude training program together with personal coach Dag Kaas and Stray-Gundersen. In an article from the newspaper Verdens Gang 2002 (4.) some interesting facts are revealed. Especially these sentences where you could see that enhightened HB values were in focus:

Jim Stray Gundersen har kunnskapen om høyde. Skari og Kaas har samarbeidet tett med ham. Norsk-amerikaneren eier et hus ikke langt unna OL-stadion og var med til USA sommeren 2000.
- Han tok tester på Bentes blodvolum som ga oss en klar pekepinn på at hun var på riktig vei. Det var en viktig bekreftelse å få. Det ga ekstra motivasjon, forklarer Kaas.

Translation:
Jim Stray Gundersen has knowledge of altitude training. Skari and Kaas has a close working relationship with him. The Norwegian-American owns a house not far from the Olympic Stadium, and was with the U.S. in summer of 2000.
- He took samples on Bente's blood volume that gave us a clear indication that we were on the right track. It was an important confirmation to receive. It provided extra motivation, says Kaas.

When Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet 2001 (5.) presented a bunch of Norwegian skiers blood values, Skari was missing with the following explanation:

Dagbladet fikk ikke tak i Bente Skari i går kveld, men ifølge hennes personlige trener Dag Kaas ligger Bente så lavt som mellom 12 og 13 i hemoglobinverdier.

Translated:
Dagbladet could not get hold of Bente Skari last night, but according to her personal trainer Dag Kaas, Bente is as low as between 12 and 13 in hemoglobin values.

That blood values were in focus in Norwegian xc-skiing and also tended to be rather high is confirmed by an article in Norwegian newspaper Nordlys 2006 (6.). Here it is revealed that Olympiatoppen brought forward a document with the help of Stray-Gundersen, with the following advice:

gir norske utøvere og trenere helt klare råd om hvordan man skal unngå for høye blodverdier ved testing.

Translated:
giving Norwegian athletes and coaches clear advice in how to avoid high blood levels in testing situations.

Why on earth this should be needed since everyone in Norwegian and Swedish XC-skiing has normal values according to NSF. Which was …… [cough] …… proved when NSF last year produced some blood values from Norwegian skiers off season.

A reoccurring argument has been that it has been incredibly hard to publish the figures, even if they wanted to.
In a paper from 2007 (7.) it’s stated that FIS 2001-2007 collected 7081 blood samples from 1074 skiers where both HB and rets was measured. Surely it must include some skiers from the most dominant nation, or?
Moreover, Stray-Gundersen who were employed by the Norwegians 1997-2003 collected 1999-2002 blood-samples from more than 1000 athletes in skate, Nordic Combination, XC and Biathlon. Some athletes were tested more than 14 times with a promise to be anonymous. But with the consent from the skiers it could not be a problem for NSF to get hold of this data, from a former employee?

Where is the follow up questions from the media, to NSF who delivers nothing more than smokescreens?

All this should be really embarrassing for Stray-Gundersen. A unison science community doesn’t confirm the benefits with high altitude training that he has claimed he has reached with the Norwegian XC-ski team. To me it seems clear that the high altitude program, that was common among the Norwegians in the late 90s and early 2000s, was a perfect cover in hiding blood manipulation/doping. Or was this acclaimed scientist so naïve that the skiers doped without his knowledge during the high altitude camps, and he was happy to see that his program gave stunning results, without any suspicions? I don’t know what is more devastating to a scientist, but after all, maybe it was just naivety from Stray-Gundersen? As the man in charge of the High Altitude program in Olympiatoppen he was not responsible just for the XC-team. The doctor and trainer Thor-Øistein Endsjø raises some interesting concerns in the Norwegian newspaper Bergens Tidene (unfortunately the article is moved from internet):

Dette er tall også Thor-Øistein Endsjø stusser over. Han var inntil for få år tilbake lege for både friidrettsforbundet og skøyteforbundet.
- Vi drev også høydetrening med våre utøvere, men var aldri i nærheten av å få det hemoglobinnivået som langrenn påstår at de har fått. Grete Waitz og Ingrid Kristiansen, som også drev med høydetrening, kom aldri over verdier på 12,5 og 14,5. Vår erfaring var at høydetrening kunne gi en økning på 0,5, sier Endsjø og legger til:

- Jeg er full av spørsmål.

Translated:
Thor-Einstein Endsjø also choked over those figures. He was until a few years back, doctor for both the Athletics and Skating Association.
- We also ran altitude training programs with our athletes, but we were never close to the HB-levels cross country claim that they had reached. Grete Waitz and Ingrid Kristiansen, who also participated in altitude training, never got values higher than 12.5 and 14.5. Our experience was that altitude training could give an increase of 0.5, says Endsjø adding:
- I have so many questions

So do I.

Footnotes:
1. http://usathletictrust.org/hi-low-tr...ray-gundersen/
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11509506
3. http://www.zora.uzh.ch/90881/1/Jacobs_HAM_2013.pdf
4. http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=7648897
5. http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html
6. http://www.nordlys.no/sporten/Rikssp...cle1959455.ece
7. http://www.svt.se/ug/article1869659....oerkerberg.pdf
8. http://www.xcskiworld.com/news/Updates/February4.htm

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Disgear wrote: "To me it seems clear that the high altitude program, that was common among the Norwegians in the late 90s and early 2000s, was a perfect cover in hiding blood manipulation/doping. Or was this acclaimed scientist so naïve that the skiers doped without his knowledge during the high altitude camps, and he was happy to see that his program gave stunning results, without any suspicions? I don’t know what is more devastating to a scientist, but after all, maybe it was just naivety from Stray-Gundersen? "
quote - end..
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Sundby who just won the world cup with almost twice the points of number 2, claims to have had around 150 days at high altitude this year, and wants to cut back next year. He actually says that he is not sure of the effects of high altitude training, and says maybe it's his hard training over the last 10 years that has finally given him the results this year. Maybe this will be a good test of how altitude training works, if he suc** next year while training at low altitude.

One thing is sure though - those 150 days at altitude means he is on training camp for around half the year, that surely has an effect also or what ? Is it so unlikely that Norway basicly being one of a few nations with big teams, and lots of top athletes in cross-country, who are well funded, and train together, plays a part also ?

Another Norwegian who believes in high altitude training is Bjørndalen. He just lives at high altitude all year round to be on the safe side. At 40 he lives in a campingcar, and is concentrating 100% on training and sleeping as he says.. plus walking on glowing coals before the season of course.