Doping in XC skiing

[MrRoboto]

Where have I stated that Bauer wasn't a very capable skier? On the contrary I said that Bauer is a good example of a skier that would have been much more successful in time before FIS changed XC-skiing into chase/sprint events.

IMHO - and avoiding more suppressant commentaries from you, I think Bauer was a truly great skier (not so much anymore), almost as talented as Olsson.

Both of them were built for another era, but Olsson has found ways to deal with a changed scene late in his career. 50K on Sunday will probably be his last race.

The first long mass start race was in 2002, with the 30k there. Then from 2005 the 50k was mass start. The combined pursuit changed into the skiathlon in 2003. Point is that the changes started before both Bauer and Olsson was at their best, and Bauer was far more successful.

Edit: Far more a bit of a stretch, when Olsson now has done quite better han Bauer at championships. But still, bauer with his world cup and tour de ski wins together with his championship medals has been more successful than Olsson.

 

[Discgear]

The first long mass start race was in 2002, with the 30k there. Then from 2005 the 50k was mass start. The combined pursuit changed into the skiathlon in 2003. Point is that the changes started before both Bauer and Olsson was at their best, and Bauer was far more successful.

Bauer far more succesful in WC, far less successful in championships.
Bauer 3 individual medals no golds, 11 WC wins.
Olsson 6 individual medals 2 golds, 5 WC wins.
In 2005 Bauer was 28 years of age and Olsson 25. Both well into their careers. As younger skiers, they both built there basic capacity for another type of xc-racing. Bjoergen who is in the same age adopted better since she came from sprint.
IMHO, Olsson is the best technician we've seen so far in both disciplines.

 

[Kokoso]

Bauer far more succesful in WC, far less successful in championships.
Bauer 3 individual medals no golds, 11 WC wins.
Olsson 6 individual medals 2 golds, 5 WC wins.
In 2005 Bauer was 28 years of age and Olsson 25. Both well into their careers. As younger skiers, they both built there basic capacity for another type of xc-racing. Bjoergen who is in the same age adopted better since she came from sprint.
IMHO, Olsson is the best technician we've seen so far in both disciplines.

Not to speak about what would be Bauer capable if he had money and know how of Swedes. Completely different level probably. I think you can count that silver where Veerpalu was first as gold, too. And when you speak about olympic and championship, the difference between Bauer's and Olsson's real performance wasn't that big actually.

Bauer was far more succesful in WC AND TdS, do not forget.

 

[BullsFan22]

I don't doubt Olsson's win was aided by an earlier start, but as I've said earlier, his ability to come to the major races and perform great is unmatched. I am not talking guys like Northug, Cologna, Legkov, Hellner, etc who race more races throughout the year and are still near at the top or near it race in and race out. I am not really sure what kind of training he did after he got over his supposed sickness this year (and last) to get himself into medal winning shape, but whatever he is doing and has been doing the last 6 years is remarkable. Maybe racing sparingly, getting early bib numbers and perhaps easing the pressure on yourself is the way to go for him and some of the others.

 

[BullsFan22]

Veerpalu doped.

Yes, I know that, so did Mae, and in all likelihood, so did Alsgaard. The point I was trying to make is that these guys either raced sparingly on the WC circuit and/or sandbagged many of the races prior to the big races prior to the Olympics and World Championships. I remember hearing a lot about Alsgaard being sick weeks before several Championships and then magically coming into form. 2002 and 2003 are prime examples. Botvinov and Hoffman are two more major examples. Obviously they were under the influence of PED's as well, but you still have to do the training and preparation.

 

[Barkintheeye]

No doping cases yet in these championships. Finally FIS has come to grips with illegal substitutes or?

 

[figgelura]

No doping cases yet in these championships. Finally FIS has come to grips with illegal substitutes or?

Well, im not to shore about that. Todays skiing biggest problem is Doping, but not medicinal. The financial doping is killing the sport and this is to me a much bigger problem than a disillusional epo doping Johannes dyrr. Norway spends more Money every year on wax and ski prep. than most countries entire budget. To me there has to be some sort of financial fair play system within FIS or else the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP can be held at Holmenkollen every time. Just my thought, interesting to here other thoughts about this subject from this forum.

 

[Nicko.]

No doping cases yet in these championships. Finally FIS has come to grips with illegal substitutes or?

Can't be bothered to find and read the 'fine print', can someone explain the pecking order between FIS Tecnical Committee, FIS Medical Committee, race venue organisation, National Federation and NADO regarding:
-what to test for
-whom to test (in principal and targeting)
-minimum testing required
-maximum testing allowed
-burden of cost
-bio passport vs substance
-window of jurisdiction/transfer of responsibility
etc

Is FIS keeping a lid on the 'risk of exposure'?

edit:
My point is if Falun/Swedish Federation can/may pull a 2008 TdF, when AFLD was doing effective work because the race that year took place under the jurisdiction of the French Cycling Federation (under massive attack from the UCI).

 

[Cloxxki]

Perhaps XC nations should be expected to make anti-doping donations (directly to WADA) for the benefit of their sport (and tests of their nations, equal to their waxing budgets.
Pretty sure that merely the rubbing and scrubbing of skis that were supplied for free is a great multitude of costs of anti-doping efforts in the case of Norway.

 

[Discgear]

Oh I don't mean 10k free. That was an expected performance. I'm taking a more holistic approach. For example I will be keeping my eyes open on the 30k, and also her performances after the championship.

Also I want to enjoy the races and not think so much about doping.

So, did you enjoy the race? Quit interested to hear about your holistic approach to Kalla and why you find her suspicious, or is she suspicious because she's the only one with some competitive edge against the red army? Quite amazing race today. To see Johaug smash all competition with her horrible energy wasting technique, challenged by nobody except another lady with a body like an American male sprinter.

As I said before, today I'm totally convinced that the Norwegian success during the 90s was due to illegal medical use. I have always refused to think that doping is a part of their current success. But what really ****es me off, is the constant questioning from Norwegian media as soon as anyone else seem to be competitive. Swedes excluded of course, since they are untouchables.

The Swedes got away with two golds but both of those wins was very much due to weather, starting numbers and extremely good material. Today, visibly superior skis for Kalla didn't help much against a Johaug with endless energy resources.

 

[Saint Unix]

Important to note than Johaug faded towards the end and that Kalla fell twice during the first half of the race.

The massive M?rdarbacken hill favours Johaug as well. I'd say Bj?rgen is more suspicious than Johaug. Johaug is a distance specialist on a course that suits her, and did what everyone expected her to do.

 

[Discgear]

Important to note than Johaug faded towards the end

Yeah, it was really surprising to see how much time she lost in the end. After all she ran only one kilometer with the Norwegian flag in her left hand, and actually moved forward the last 200 meters bowing and cheering in front of the crowd. Not to mention skiing the wrong track, loosing also some 20 sec.

and that Kalla fell twice during the first half of the race.

Despite that, she managed to get to the podium -again!???. Very suspicious.

The massive M?rdarbacken hill favours Johaug as well. I'd say Bj?rgen is more suspicious than Johaug. Johaug is a distance specialist on a course that suits her, and did what everyone expected her to do.

Agree, let's look in other directions - maybe the usual suspects. As said, it was quite a normal race from Johaug.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Despite that, she managed to get to the podium -again!???. Very suspicious.

In fairness to Charlotte, behind her you have Niskanen who didn't change skis but still managed to drop Bleckur and Weng who'd been part of the chase throughout. Bleckur is also hitting peak form at these World Championships and isn't generally as good as Kalla, while Weng would normally be expected to be up at the front but hit the wall hard on the final lap and fell well behind. The likes of Steffi B?hler and Vrabcov?-Nyvltov? being behind Kalla is not surprising. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Steira and Jacobsen had been able to take the start. ?stberg made the top 10, so maybe they're right about her having the ability to turn into a distance athlete, but Steira and Jacobsen are both better than her over 30k.

 

[python]

So, did you enjoy the race? Quit interested to hear about your holistic approach to Kalla and why you find her suspicious, or is she suspicious because she's the only one with some competitive edge against the red army?

i posted here my caution about rushing to judgement against charlotte after she smashed oerstersund last week. i called for waiting if her falun performances confirm the smashing.... btw, good luck reasoning with torebear (don't want to open old sores, but he, unlike several other balanced and reasonable norwegians here, is not open-minded about the 90s...just recall he called bengt saltin a deranged old man and never withdrew the charge...)

anyways, i no longer feel that kalla is suspicious. her falun weaknesses and early strengths look to me like a passing peak of the elevation-gained form she had in oestersund...neither am i too worried about johaug. regarding the hunk woman i have to admit i am unable to judge her objectively.. unlike last year, when i felt neutral, even defended her, she - and particularly her looks - irritate me. i am an old-fashioned nordic...

olsson ? after what he had shown in the 2nd leg of the relay, i predict he should win the 50 hands down (provided his skis are ok)..he is a unique, very talented skier, but i am a little concerned.

 

[MrRoboto]

There was little that could indicate Kalla having superior skis over Johaug today. Kalla has shown throughout this championship that she has been able to consistently generate most speed down the hills to the stadium, but she didn't seem gain much today.

Bj?rgen's first pair seemed pretty weak though.

 

[Discgear]

There was little that could indicate Kalla having superior skis over Johaug today.

Did we witness the same race? Look at the sequence 12.45-13.15 into the race. I've seldom seen a more hysterical glide advantage. Also Johaug seemed to have very bad grip. After the race Weng heavily complained over her lousy skis with no grip. She explicitly said Kalla had much better skis.

From SVT: http://www.svtplay.se/video/2687914/langdskidor/vm-i-falun-vm-i-falun-15

 

[Saint Unix]

Yeah, it was really surprising to see how much time she lost in the end. After all she ran only one kilometer with the Norwegian flag in her left hand, and actually moved forward the last 200 meters bowing and cheering in front of the crowd. Not to mention skiing the wrong track, loosing also some 20 sec.

Kalla was picking up seconds on Johaug for the whole last lap. She even reeled in a few seconds going up the hill. It could be because the gold was safe for Johaug, but she looked to me as if she was going hard until she got the flag.

 

[MrRoboto]

Did we witness the same race? Look at the sequence 12.45-13.15 into the race. I've seldom seen a more hysterical glide advantage. Also Johaug seemed to have very bad grip. After the race Weng heavily complained over her lousy skis with no grip. She explicitly said Kalla had much better skis.

From SVT: http://www.svtplay.se/video/2687914/langdskidor/vm-i-falun-vm-i-falun-15

I can't watch it, but I guess it was the only place you could directly compare glide and that was when they all came into the stadium together after the first round. Kalla was gaining quite a few meters at the flat there as they sat down. The problem is that this doesn't necessarily only mean glide, but how much speed you took with you into it. Johaug was behind Bj?rgen which had noticeably worse skis than the others, and Kalla have shown to do very well down there throughout the championship. The other rounds Kalla didn't seem to gain anything between the checkpoints downhill though.

And how did she have very bad grip? She didn't trouble more with losing the grip uphill then the others.

 

[BullsFan22]

It's not the first time Johaug has had a "Muehlegg" moment. She's done it twice at Holmenkollen (2011 World's and 2013 regular world cup). Obviously the Tour de Ski final climb as well. I don't know, but I just still find it hilarious that someone can ski like the way she does the whole 30km and absolutely crush the field. It's like a hyper cartoon character. Maurillio DeZolt has nothing on her.

 

[Discgear]

Kalla was picking up seconds on Johaug for the whole last lap. She even reeled in a few seconds going up the hill. It could be because the gold was safe for Johaug, but she looked to me as if she was going hard until she got the flag.

So your point is?

And how did she have very bad grip? She didn't trouble more with losing the grip uphill then the others.

As I said Weng was very upset afterwards over her lousy skis. She complained "5 times" during the race. The grip didn't get better after the ski change. Maybe the wax team has something against Weng, giving her much worse skis then Johaug? The thing is, if you are strong and having stamina, you could go with less grip and still manage the climb. IMHO it really looked like that was the case with Johaug and of course Bjoergen.

But I have to ask you: What's your point?

It's not the first time Johaug has had a "Muehlegg" moment. She's done it twice at Holmenkollen (2011 World's and 2013 regular world cup). Obviously the Tour de Ski final climb as well. I don't know, but I just still find it hilarious that someone can ski like the way she does the whole 30km and absolutely crush the field. It's like a hyper cartoon character. Maurillio DeZolt has nothing on her.

Totally agree. My point is that it's kind of hilarious to see that the only ones that is questioned by the Norwegian fan club is now Kalla and maybe even Bleckur, the only ones that were only crushed by two minutes or so, though it would have been much more if Johaug had competed to the finish.

It was the same with Kowa back in the days, even if she also mostly were smashed by the red army. Always questioned. So if she was dirty, why has she suddenly stopped doping?

But to see - using Python and BullsFan words - "the hunk women" and "the hyper cartoon" character totally dominate in a way that's even beyond M?hlegg: Just normal, not suspicious at all.

Finally, before the Norwegians put everything on the table concerning the 90s, XC-skiing will always suffer from being highly suspect. It's really sad that great runs like Manificat and Olsson in the relay, or Johaug yesterday or the sprint relays from the Norwegians, or Kalla in Ostersund and so on will always be questioned. After all, XC-skiing is about torturing yourself into super human achievements.

 

[shAdOwArt]

Kalla was picking up seconds on Johaug for the whole last lap. She even reeled in a few seconds going up the hill. It could be because the gold was safe for Johaug, but she looked to me as if she was going hard until she got the flag.

Johaug had to stop for a while on the final lap because she thought she had gone the wrong way. The tv cameras missed it though so its unclear exactly how much she lost. Apparently she asked some officials for directions but received no answer so she made a gamble.

 

[MrRoboto]

So your point is?
But I have to ask you: What's your point?

That my impression is that she had excellent skis, and that I find it somewhat strange that someone can think the quite opposite.

Johaug had to stop for a while on the final lap because she thought she had gone the wrong way. The tv cameras missed it though so its unclear exactly how much she lost. Apparently she asked some officials for directions but received no answer so she made a gamble.

Pretty sure that was when she was riding down to the stadium halfway through the race -- not in the end.

 

[Discgear]

That my impression is that she had excellent skis, and that I find it somewhat strange that someone can think the quite opposite.

Well, I'm sure you could find a way to look at the sequence I referred to. Kallas glide was hysterically much better than Bjoergen and Johaug. If it was that Bjoergen had much worse glide than Johaug, you would have seen Johaug rise or give Bjoergen a friendly bump forward. Niether took place. Weng explicitly said she had bad skis with no grip, even after the change. Once again: IMHO that was also the case for Johaug, but with her incredible strength yesterday it was not an issue.

But anyhow, what's your point? This is a forum about doping. My question is, why suspect Kalla and give Johaug with her ridicolus performance(s) a free card?

 

[MrRoboto]

Well, I'm sure you could find a way to look at the sequence I referred to. Kallas glide was hysterically much better than Bjoergen and Johaug. If it was that Bjoergen had much worse glide than Johaug, you would have seen Johaug rise or give Bjoergen a friendly bump forward. Niether took place. Weng explicitly said she had bad skis with no grip, even after the change. Once again: IMHO that was also the case for Johaug, but with her incredible strength yesterday it was not an issue.

But anyhow, what's your point? This is a forum about doping. My question is, why suspect Kalla and give Johaug with her ridicolus performance(s) a free card?

As I said, Johaug was winning time both uphill and downhill. It's hard to imagine she had bad skis. We have seen many people gliding down into the stadium through this championship, and ,especially on the men's side, it felt like there were different people gliding in front each time. While glide certainly is a factor, it also has to do with skill, timing and a bit of luck.

Is there a broken record here? I just stated my point. Do I have to have a given opinion to discuss here?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well seems like having your own house with your own doctor next to the venue still helps