Doping in XC skiing

[Cloxxki]

Mäkkarainen does seem to equal all the best skiers moving through the sport. She handled Neuner, Domracheva, and now the new stars.
Somewhere along the lines there was a supertalent who doped. Yet never was Mäkkarainen outshown that I recall.
Russians get caught, but they never seem to overcome the "talent gap", which is very un-EPO.
Top IBU officials even employ Michele Ferrari to raise their kids. But how do they ensure a natural looking performance spread at the top?
Hauswald had a curious patch of skiing dominance just before she retired, but otherwise ski speed fluctuations seem limited. Which is impressive in a sport where Russians and Latvians and Ukrainians are taking the blame.

 

[kosmonaut]

http://www.nrk.no/sport/ingen-trenere-straffet-etter-25-dopingsaker-1.12714813

Half of the known doping cases in biathlon since 1999 are Russian. No coaches ever affected, NRK reports.

 

[Cloxxki]

Yet were those Russians head and shoulders about the likes of Bjoerndalen and Neuner in terms of ski speed? There have been unnatural development paths, but not too deep into fastest ski speeds, right? It's not like all Russians are super clumsy and inefficient on their skis.

 

[kosmonaut]

Totally agree. The Russian's doping problem has been that they are getting caught.

But if people actually wants to change something, it's a fair point that coaches and leaders needs to get kicked out too.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Totally agree. The Russian's doping problem has been that they are getting caught.

But if people actually wants to change something, it's a fair point that coaches and leaders needs to get kicked out too.

I wouldn't be shocked that there is money bribing and favoritism involved, just like every other sport known to man. The Russians were never known for their ski speed in Biathlon. It was their shooting that would put them over the top. Their women especially relied on good shooting. Sure, you had people like Sleptsova, Zaitseva that had top 5-10 ski times in races, but they were outclassed by Neuner, Domracheva, Makarainen, Goessner and even by the woman who had the best technique, Berger. The men are much more competitive in skiing times, especially Shipulin who is arguably the fastest finisher in Biathlon, but Fourcade is above everyone else. The Russians, due to the sheer amount of biathletes and cross country skiers, will keep producing the talent to compete with the best, but if they are getting caught, and people like Fourcade or Svendsen or wonderboy himself, Bjoerndalen, keep winning races, what does that say?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Bjoerndalen won only one xc world cup race. That's his only xc win, world cup or otherwise. Berger only won one as well, but it was a big one, the 2007 Sapporo 15km. That race though was heavily influenced by a snow storm that began as the top seeded skiers were starting. Berger didn't have to deal with it for the first half of the race. Sure, he was one of the guys that people looked at could podium, but I think the weather played its part. The other guy that won a xc world cup race was Ronny André Hafsås, who won the very first wc race of the 09-10 season. He was also a member of the team that won the 4x10 relay the next day. He went on to race in Vancouver that year but only managed 42 in the 15km skate. He had some injury problems after that and retired rather quietly after 2013, I think.

Neither Bjoerndalen won bunch of races nor only one race. He won like three races, one of them world cup. Plus he had some other podium results too.

That's what I wrote in the comment. Didn't you read it? I don't know about non world cup xc races which he won, but I was focusing on the WC.

 

[meat puppet]

Jarmo Punkkinen, the Finnish ambassador of international blood doping, has coached Mäkäräinen. Other honourable mentions among his athletes include Manuela di Centa. Anyone who's taken J. Ulrich's math 101 knows what this means.

Yet no journo in Finland or otherwise seems capable of connecting the dots. It would serve this backward of a nation right if someone did their job.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Jarmo Punkkinen, the Finnish ambassador of international blood doping, has coached Mäkäräinen. Other honourable mentions among his athletes include Manuela di Centa. Anyone who's taken J. Ulrich's math 101 knows what this means.

Yet no journo in Finland or otherwise seems capable of connecting the dots. It would serve this backward of a nation right if someone did their job.

Very interesting. Had no idea about Makarainen and that particular coach and his involvement with Di Centa. I wonder how deep that connection is. I also wonder if that coach, since he worked with Di Centa, worked with the entire Italian national team at the time and later, particularly Di Centa's brother Giorgio. Any more details on that?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

[
Sorry, but no way is the women's Biathlon field considered strong. There is more parity, as ski speed and generally speaking, shooting, is closer than it has ever been in women's biathlon, but the field has taken the same type of hits as far as retirements are concerned. There are only a few skiers, for example, that could fight for top 20-30 placings in xc events. Those would be people like Makarainen, Goessner, Soukalova, Eckhoff, Wierer and perhaps Dorin-Habert. Goessner was 4th, less than a second off of the medals in Val Di Fiemme 2013 and Makarainen wasn't too far behind. I watched the women's mass start from Pokljuka and, not to sound rude or to belittle any of the women, but it's just not at the level it was even a few years ago. No Domracheva, Berger retired, Neuner retired, no Vilukhina, Ekholm retired, Sleptsova (who really knows what's up with her).

Marie Dorin Habert is faster than Wierer, always was and still is. Doro's ski speed is a relatively recent development over the last season or two, before that she was very shooting-biased as a competitor, and even so she belongs in the "strongly competitive skiers" file with the likes of Franzi Hildebrand for ski speed rather than the "hares" like Mäkäräinen, whereas since returning from her baby break Dorin Habert has been in the latter. Maybe it's true that it isn't at the level it was a few years ago (not that Vilukhina or Sleptsova were especially quick in fairness, and Ekholm was more reliant on her shooting as well but that was more a product of opposition like Neuner than because she was a Brunet or Skardino-type competitor) but MDH posted a fastest ski time back in early 2013; the broken ankle then pregnancy break means that the differences may seem severe, but if you look at her pre-season racing 2013-14 and that racing she did get in that year, her skiing was improving greatly from 2012 onwards (and she was never as slow as Brunet anyway). However, it is true that she had already been long established on the World Cup by the time that speed really manifested itself, as opposed to somebody like Gössner or Neuner who were both blindingly quick from the moment they arrived on the junior scenes. Gössner's still not at the level she was 2012-13 I don't think, but she is up in the top 5 skiers this year which is where she belongs. Veronika Vitková is also pretty quick on form (see mid-season last year), hasn't shown it to date this year to the same extent though.

However, the range of competitors may give the illusion to a more competitive field - however it's true that there is nobody absolutely obliterating the field for ski times at the moment or a small group who are clearly dominant in that field as there has been in recent years with Mäkäräinen and Domracheva. There are other absences from the field that also affect it - Kuzmina taking another baby break, Tina Bachmann going the Sleptsova route, Henkel retiring (she was still very quick in around 2010-11 even if she slowed down approaching retirement), and Solemdal and Gössner having health problems that have affected them over a number of years although at least the latter appears to be getting back towards where they had been.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Bjoerndalen won only one xc world cup race. That's his only xc win, world cup or otherwise. Berger only won one as well, but it was a big one, the 2007 Sapporo 15km. That race though was heavily influenced by a snow storm that began as the top seeded skiers were starting. Berger didn't have to deal with it for the first half of the race. Sure, he was one of the guys that people looked at could podium, but I think the weather played its part. The other guy that won a xc world cup race was Ronny André Hafsås, who won the very first wc race of the 09-10 season. He was also a member of the team that won the 4x10 relay the next day. He went on to race in Vancouver that year but only managed 42 in the 15km skate. He had some injury problems after that and retired rather quietly after 2013, I think.

Neither Bjoerndalen won bunch of races nor only one race. He won like three races, one of them world cup. Plus he had some other podium results too.

Don't forget Soldier Hollow!
When Elofsson's body exploded in trying to keep up with Mühlegg - eventually ending his career - OEB was the one who managed to stay in touch longer than anyone else. The "clean" podium ended up like this after JM was thrown out of the Olympics:
GOLD Christian Hoffmann Austria
SILVER Mikhail Botvinov Austria
BRONZE Kristen Skjeldal Norway
4 Pietro Piller Cottrer Italy
5 Ole Einar Bjørndalen Norway

I don't forget that. Back than I was big fan of Ole. The first three, four or five are hilarious.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Jarmo Punkkinen, the Finnish ambassador of international blood doping, has coached Mäkäräinen. Other honourable mentions among his athletes include Manuela di Centa. Anyone who's taken J. Ulrich's math 101 knows what this means.

Yet no journo in Finland or otherwise seems capable of connecting the dots. It would serve this backward of a nation right if someone did their job.

Very interesting. Had no idea about Makarainen and that particular coach and his involvement with Di Centa. I wonder how deep that connection is. I also wonder if that coach, since he worked with Di Centa, worked with the entire Italian national team at the time and later, particularly Di Centa's brother Giorgio. Any more details on that?

Piller Cotrer, Giorgio Di Centa, they are among names who extensively peaked for world champs and olympic games. Plus Veerpalu. Maybe Smigun. Why do I remember that? Because they competed with Lukas Bauer, who regularly beat them through season, but should big event come, they leaped in form. I don't deny that I was sad for that back than. Especially because sprinter and mass start were coming and I knew that it isn't good for him. Wish he competed in nineties, when I was kid mostly, sportsmen real heroes and xc full of interval starts...

 

[Deadbody]

Re: Re:

Jarmo Punkkinen, the Finnish ambassador of international blood doping, has coached Mäkäräinen. Other honourable mentions among his athletes include Manuela di Centa. Anyone who's taken J. Ulrich's math 101 knows what this means.

Yet no journo in Finland or otherwise seems capable of connecting the dots. It would serve this backward of a nation right if someone did their job.

Very interesting. Had no idea about Makarainen and that particular coach and his involvement with Di Centa. I wonder how deep that connection is. I also wonder if that coach, since he worked with Di Centa, worked with the entire Italian national team at the time and later, particularly Di Centa's brother Giorgio. Any more details on that?

He was involved with the italian male cc team 87-90?

92-94 he was with the swedish female cc team.

In the finish documentary "Sinivalkoinen valhe" he is said to have adviced skiers to dope.

 

[meat puppet]

Punkkinen is Mäkäräinen's skiing and/or physique coach at present, yes. I thought their relationship was well known. http://www.biathlon-kontiolahti.fi/uudet_sivut/lajijaostot_valmentajat.html

In Finnish there are several testimonies that it was in fact Punkkinen who brought EPO over from Italian cycling, most notably K-P Kyrö's. But also ones that go further back, The Lahti debacle or even further. The period in question with regard to introducing blood manipulation, I take it, would have been during the late 1980s and the turn of the 1990s. Wiki also has him coaching Manuela di Centa in 1987-1990, which I think is also well established. Overall, I have no reason to doubt the validity of these claims.

After skiing, Di Centa was Forza Italia's MP and Berlusconi's protege till 2013. Fitting, put it that way.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

In Finnish there are several testimonies that it was in fact Punkkinen who brought EPO over from Italian cycling, most notably K-P Kyrö's. But also ones that go further back, The Lahti debacle or even further. The period in question with regard to introducing blood manipulation, I take it, would have been during the late 1980s and the turn of the 1990s.

I agree that blood doping probably was a part of the picture in the late 1980s. However, in the testimonies, is there a first date when Punkkinen supposedly introduced EPO in XC-skiing?

 

[Cloxxki]

After blood doping and EPO, how can anyone enjoy XC Skiing or coaching it anymore? Let alone at pro level. How do they do it?

 

[meat puppet]

Re: Re:

In Finnish there are several testimonies that it was in fact Punkkinen who brought EPO over from Italian cycling, most notably K-P Kyrö's. But also ones that go further back, The Lahti debacle or even further. The period in question with regard to introducing blood manipulation, I take it, would have been during the late 1980s and the turn of the 1990s.

I agree that blood doping probably was a part of the picture in the late 1980s. However, in the testimonies, is there a first date when Punkkinen supposedly introduced EPO in XC-skiing?

Over to Finnish skiing. Sorry for being imprecise while writing on the phone.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

In Finnish there are several testimonies that it was in fact Punkkinen who brought EPO over from Italian cycling, most notably K-P Kyrö's. But also ones that go further back, The Lahti debacle or even further. The period in question with regard to introducing blood manipulation, I take it, would have been during the late 1980s and the turn of the 1990s.

I agree that blood doping probably was a part of the picture in the late 1980s. However, in the testimonies, is there a first date when Punkkinen supposedly introduced EPO in XC-skiing?

Over to Finnish skiing. Sorry for being imprecise while writing on the phone.

I thought it was Ferrari and Conconi who introduced EPO to XC-skiing? Or did Punkinnen learn from them and he was the guy that introduced these new methods?

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

In Finnish there are several testimonies that it was in fact Punkkinen who brought EPO over from Italian cycling, most notably K-P Kyrö's. But also ones that go further back, The Lahti debacle or even further. The period in question with regard to introducing blood manipulation, I take it, would have been during the late 1980s and the turn of the 1990s.

I agree that blood doping probably was a part of the picture in the late 1980s. However, in the testimonies, is there a first date when Punkkinen supposedly introduced EPO in XC-skiing?

Over to Finnish skiing. Sorry for being imprecise while writing on the phone.

Yes, I did understand it was about Finnish skiing. I was also not clear in my question. However, it would be very interesting to know, if there were any dates mentioned in the testimonies.

 

[python]

this post is not to cast a shadow on anyone but to bring some light on a relatively obscure but potentially very effective doping technique - corrective surgery...it is indeed corrective for many, but abuses have also been suspected, though, proving it is practically impossible. the procedure is very risky and there are documented deaths of elite pros (ryan cox). here's a backgrounder from the book about doping by prof. ellis cashmore:

in the 1990s, a number of professional cyclists underwent a surgery to widen the iliac artery, claiming it was 'corrective surgery', since the artery was constricted by the posture on the saddle...

why i posted this in a xc thread ? frankly, for information and awareness, not accusations, as we hardly ever suspect this particular method in our sport. more specifically, i bring a relatively unknown example of alex harvey who had undergone the procedure before the season. i understand, it is his 2nd operation of the type the 1st being administered 8y. ago...

in all fairness to alex, he is probably one of the most naturally gifted skiers of all time. he got the gift from his father, pierre harvey, an aerobic genius from canada with multiple olympics, word and other feats. enough to mention that alex's father vo2 max was verified by guy thibault, phd at 86 way before the epo crap. that alex took after his dad is rather obvious...source (french):
http://veloptimum.net/courses/athletes/Harvey/Pierre/GeoPleinAir.html

here's the english language article about alex's procedure.
http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/harvey-recovering-from-iliac-artery-surgery-ready-to-begin-training/

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

this post is not to cast a shadow on anyone but to bring some light on a relatively obscure but potentially very effective doping technique - corrective surgery...it is indeed corrective for many, but abuses have also been suspected, though, proving it is practically impossible. the procedure is very risky and there are documented deaths of elite pros (ryan cox). here's a backgrounder from the book about doping by prof. ellis cashmore:

in the 1990s, a number of professional cyclists underwent a surgery to widen the iliac artery, claiming it was 'corrective surgery', since the artery was constricted by the posture on the saddle...

why i posted this in a xc thread ? frankly, for information and awareness, not accusations, as we hardly ever suspect this particular method in our sport. more specifically, i bring a relatively unknown example of alex harvey who had undergone the procedure before the season. i understand, it is his 2nd operation of the type the 1st being administered 8y. ago...

in all fairness to alex, he is probably one of the most naturally gifted skiers of all time. he got the gift from his father, pierre harvey, an aerobic genius from canada with multiple olympics, word and other feats. enough to mention that alex's father vo2 max was verified by guy thibault, phd at 86 way before the epo crap. that alex took after his dad is rather obvious...source (french):
http://veloptimum.net/courses/athletes/Harvey/Pierre/GeoPleinAir.html

here's the english language article about alex's procedure.
http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/harvey-recovering-from-iliac-artery-surgery-ready-to-begin-training/

Don't get why you think corrective artery surgery is abused as doping? And why do you think the procedure is very risky? Of thousands who undergone it, one is documented to die and you really can't know why he died, you'd need more detailed information.
It'd seem rather improbable to abuse this surgery as a doping, because healthy, own artery seems to be the best artery you can have. I can be wrong of course.
Btw. you really don't know what Alex Harvey inherited from his father. Anyway, what year that was his father was tested for VO2max.? "EPO crap" may not existed, transfusions could.

 

[Shardi]

You reckon there will be big differences in the mass start tomorrow? Sundby looked good today, so did cologna.

 

[BullsFan22]

You reckon there will be big differences in the mass start tomorrow? Sundby looked good today, so did cologna.

I think there might be. Depending on what the weather does. According the weather report, and German commentators also mentioned it, it's supposed to snow tonight and tomorrow, but in all likelihood, it's gonna be wet snow, so it's gonna be hard going. Waxing could play a part, but the course isn't too difficult for WC standards. Sundby playing a cunning game, saying he was sick during the Christmas break and 'missed' four training sessions. Cologna, rightfully shrugged it off and said that he was Sundby training hard and that he'll be in form for the tour. I am guessing there are going to be gaps. Not sure how early people are ready to push it, but wouldn't put it past Sundby to try and shake the field early on. The Russians will be there (although if it's tricky, around zero degrees celsius, they could struggle with the waxing). Interested to see what Livo Niskanen does tomorrow. I was a bit surprised to see him make the heats. It must mean he is in decent shape. 30km classic, that's where the money lies for him. Cologna will obviously be there, and I think Poltoranin could play a big role, as he usually does in classic races. Everyone else might not be good enough. Maybe Manificat, but he, like the other French and central Europeans, is better in skating, so he'll have to wait until Sunday.

 

[kosmonaut]

This is difficult to watch. TJ putting 30 sec on the bunch after 2,7 km.

 

[Samson]

Tour de Norway.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

This is difficult to watch. TJ putting 30 sec on the bunch after 2,7 km.

In the past, she would at least look tired and drop on the ground, now she is screaming at the top of her 'lungs' and looking spright after every race. We all know that the women's field isn't as deep and tightly packed as the men's, but what Johaug is doing is....unreal. Having said that, I actually thought her winning margin would be over a minute. Oestberg skied a more controlled race and got faster in the 2nd half of the race. I thought Weng would have been better, certainly though she would have tried to hang with Johaug, at least early on, but she backed off (or simply ran out of gas, hence her losing to Oestberg).