Doping in XC skiing

[Blaaswix]

Re:

Well, the point is that acromegaly and similar effects of hormone and steroid abuse can with ease be discussed without any reference to cuteness, good looks etc. Whether some features that doping brings about do please the implied malegaze of the commentators or not is mostly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Precisely!

Johaug was given the whole pack, i.e the cardboard packet with the words doping and a big red warning circle on it.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/advokat_-_-johaug-fikk-hele-pakken-1.13182815


NRK had an opinion poll yesterday with the question 'do you believe XC-skiers on the national team dope themselves?'
Yes: 24%
No: 68%
Don't know: 8%
https://www.nrk.no/sport/dop-skepsis-til-langrennsloparane-1.13182217

 

[Cloxxki]

Clever to put it al on the packaging of the alleged cream. Maybe no-one will ask how many packages need to be consumed,all through the lip tissue, within the given time span, to achieve the concentration found, after 12 days.

If 24% of Norwegian (based) people think they're doping, how many are Norwegians and how many expats? Still, a year ago it would have looked much different, I'm sure.

 

[BullsFan22]

Not sure it really matters how one 'looks.' If some imply that if one looks 'hagrid' and 'unattractive' because they take substances is rubbish. Just because someone doesn't look like an East German shot putter or an American track sprinter/football/baseball player, doesn't mean they aren't on drugs.

BTW, I think Johaug is very cute.

Ok, now back to the topic!!

 

[Lyon]

Re:

Clever to put it al on the packaging of the alleged cream. Maybe no-one will ask how many packages need to be consumed,all through the lip tissue, within the given time span, to achieve the concentration found, after 12 days.

If 24% of Norwegian (based) people think they're doping, how many are Norwegians and how many expats? Still, a year ago it would have looked much different, I'm sure.

Nowadays NRK caters to a very specific group of people - the over 60's... No matter what, their viewers are not very representative for the Norwegian population as a whole, however, they could be representative for the part that actually watches cross country skiing.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re: Re:

Nowadays NRK caters to a very specific group of people - the over 60's...

Wrong.

Also, Norstat is a professional data collection company operating in several countries. You'd have very little faith in them to think that they would only ask people over 60.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/johaug-fick-salvan-med-dopningsvarningen/
According to Sweden's Dagens Nyheter, this is being handled first by Anti-Doping Norwayhttp://www.antidoping.no/english/ - their Prosecution Committee (påtalenemnden) deicdes if it goes to NIF.

Does not help her case by saying to her local newspaper 2 weeks ago that see checks everything she takes, "once, twice, three times"http://www.ostlendingen.no/therese-...a-om-det-bare-er-salve-eller-te/s/5-69-306921

Ex Wada director general Harri Syväsalmi says that Norwegian skiing is in a "grey zone" and tests the limits of what is allowable - Team Sky's tactics are popular it seems - He says she should be suspended. http://www.dn.se/sport/expert-norsk-skidsport-i-grazon/

 

[Cloxxki]

Lower levels of stupidity with whereabouts are often rewarded with a 1 year ban (Gregory Sedoc, hurdler).
If she claims to check stuff, and then uses this like it's candy, that deserves a 1 year ban at miminum, for stupidity alone. This cannot be brushed off. There are procedures and responsibilities in place a doc cannot take away from athletes. Perhaps this pharmacy needs to be visited by some Interpol agents. See if they are willing to claim they really sold this to the friendly doc at said date. Even then, it smells like a bought excuse.

 

[python]

...some interesting bits from the review of today's norge media re. johaug and doping.

-her lawyer said the antidoping norge will make a decision at the beginning of november

-per the vg.no the total # of granted tue's in all norge sports is 59. how many belong to their xc skiers was not elabortaed. i saw unconfirmed estimates it's half at least. i recall an interview with one of their coaches who mentioned 5 to 7 on just the national team. to that extent the vg.no performed their own count. 69% of all the norge olympic medals (since early 90s) went to selfadmitted tue holders. a likely underrepresented percentage b/c only sefadmitters were counted...

the fis refused to elaborate on the # of tue's granted. but wada made no secret it was 1330 world wide in 2015 with the rate of growth - clean your ears and eys -' In 2014 the increase was 41 percent and in 2015 it was 48 percent'

what a sick bunch
-

 

[Cloxxki]

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

I have to say, it seems that the NO situation is even worse than I ever suspected. When I first started to write in the thread a few years back, I was convinced that there was a big problem within Norwegian XC-skiing throughout the 90s, but didn't really believe something ever coming close to what we are seing wrapping around today's generation of skiers.

I guess Seppelä was spot on when he already in July did call out for an independent WADA investigation of Norway.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2016/07/25/finlandsk-antidopningschef-wada-bor-granska-de-norska-overdoserna

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

You can't overhaul everything in a few short days. They have to start from the recent cases, i.e. Sundby and Johaug and trace it back YEARS. This will take some time. They'll need to go through various prescriptions, the different doctors, medical histories, TUE's, whereabouts, look at the ADAMS whereabouts system, FIS info (shouldn't be hard as FIS is Norwegian dominated anyway, which could of course be a conflict of interest), WADA records, the Olympiatoppen, the NSF itself, personal coaches....

It's not so simple, in my opinion.

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

I have to say, it seems that the NO situation is even worse than I ever suspected. When I first started to write in the thread a few years back, I was convinced that there was a big problem within Norwegian XC-skiing throughout the 90s, but didn't really believe something ever coming close to what we are seing wrapping around today's generation of skiers.

I guess Seppelä was spot on when he already in July did call out for an independent WADA investigation of Norway.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2016/07/25/finlandsk-antidopningschef-wada-bor-granska-de-norska-overdoserna

I fail to see how the last few revelations change anything with regards to Norwegian cross-country skiing. It was always known that they operated in a gray area. Ulvang even said as much in an interview sometime in between Albertville and Lillehammer. What is new, and important, is that these cases are now made public and reported on in the media. Finally we get an insight into the underlying practices and mindset of the Norwegian Skiing Federation.

In short: what we are now seeing is nothing new to those with even a little insight, what is new is that now 'everyone' can see it. Even those who are not looking.

 

[aagerpris]

Johaug wasn't tested between May 10th and her positive test on September 16th according to her lawyer: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/...-maneder-uten-a-bli-dopingtestet-843270_1.snd

I would be very interested in knowing how many times the Norwegians have been tested during their summer training camps in the Italian mountains over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount is close to 0.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

I have to say, it seems that the NO situation is even worse than I ever suspected. When I first started to write in the thread a few years back, I was convinced that there was a big problem within Norwegian XC-skiing throughout the 90s, but didn't really believe something ever coming close to what we are seing wrapping around today's generation of skiers.

I guess Seppelä was spot on when he already in July did call out for an independent WADA investigation of Norway.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2016/07/25/finlandsk-antidopningschef-wada-bor-granska-de-norska-overdoserna

I fail to see how the last few revelations change anything with regards to Norwegian cross-country skiing. It was always known that they operated in a gray area. Ulvang even said as much in an interview sometime in between Albertville and Lillehammer. What is new, and important, is that these cases are now made public and reported on in the media. Finally we get an insight into the underlying practices and mindset of the Norwegian Skiing Federation.

In short: what we are now seeing is nothing new to those with even a little insight, what is new is that now 'everyone' can see it. Even those who are not looking.

Thank's for sticking it to me that I'm lacking even "little insight" and belong to a group of people who even not are looking.
Norwegian?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Johaug wasn't tested between May 10th and her positive test on September 16th according to her lawyer: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/...-maneder-uten-a-bli-dopingtestet-843270_1.snd

I would be very interested in knowing how many times the Norwegians have been tested during their summer training camps in the Italian mountains over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount is close to 0.

A few years ago Norwegian biathlete Emil Hegle Svendsen commented on the fact that he hadn't been tested in something like 6 months (as an aside, tennis player Andy Murray always 'complains' about being tested or not tested, and has made similar remarks regarding less testing-as in, he hasn't been tested that often). You'd have to google for the source to confirm, but if that's true that Johaug hasn't been tested for 4 months, then I could see a potential 'connecting the dots' with anti-doping and Norwegian xc/biathlon. Not every athlete will get tested equal amounts, that's the thing about any anti-doping testing in the offseason and during competition as well. After each world cup race, the top three finishers+another skier in the top 10, get tested. Then it's random athletes that get pulled. I don't know how many, on average, get pulled after every race, but I'd say it's similar amount of racers following each race. The offseason testing is murky to me. The Russians have been targeted the past few years, even prior to all the allegations. Most recently, when Legkov came out in defense of the allegations thrown at him this spring, he mentioned the amount of times he was tested and when he was tested, including the most recent one. In fact, I think he did mention this during another interview in the summer. Sarah Lewis from FIS confirmed what Legkov said. So obviously FIS have records of anti-doping tests administered to athletes. Hopefully it's from every athlete that ever gets tested (or not tested, I suppose).

Back to Johaug and the Norwegians, I too, would be very interested to see the amount of times the NSF athletes have been tested in the past 12 months. Or maybe they can start from January 1st. Either way, we'd get a good idea on the amount of testing in the offseason vs racing season, where they were tested, after which races, etc. If the pattern of Norwegians doing very little testing (it doesn't have to be the Norwegian anti-doping, it could be international WADA testers) on their xc skiers and biathletes, then I'd say that's another red light going off. I'd also be interested in knowing if, and when there were any missed tests or failing to inform the testers of the athlete whereabouts. I think the whereabouts is mostly on the athletes. Being Olympic athletes or athletes on national teams in Olympic sanctioned sports HAVE TO let the anti-doping authorities where they are, so the testers know where to come and test them. Those are just basics. I am certain most of us here already knew that.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

lyon:

In short: what we are now seeing is nothing new to those with even a little insight, what is new is that now 'everyone' can see it. Even those who are not looking.

discgear:

Thank's for sticking it to me that I'm lacking even "little insight" and belong to a group of people who even not are looking.
Norwegian?

i could be as wrong as hell, but the turn of lyon's phrase isn't coming to me as he's a norwegian.
nor does he sound as a typical swedish xc skiing fan who would, regardless of his/her position on the norwegian doping, would try to be less confrontational. i mean our mutual sarcasm being real enough, has not usually produced naked patronizing i sense in lyon. unless, of course, some personal shyte negated the nordic manners.

all that said, it is hard to argue with the notion that the norge xc skiing had been suspicious for a very long time.
what one makes of a suspicion in the light of the latest norge doping cases isn't linear nor uncontroversial.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

lyon:

In short: what we are now seeing is nothing new to those with even a little insight, what is new is that now 'everyone' can see it. Even those who are not looking.

discgear:

Thank's for sticking it to me that I'm lacking even "little insight" and belong to a group of people who even not are looking.
Norwegian?

i could be as wrong as hell, but the turn of lyon's phrase isn't coming to me as he's a norwegian.
nor does he sound as a typical swedish xc skiing fan who would, regardless of his/her position on the norwegian doping, would try to be less confrontational. i mean our mutual sarcasm being real enough, has not usually produced naked patronizing i sense in lyon. unless, of course, some personal shyte negated the nordic manners.

all that said, it is hard to argue with the notion that the norge xc skiing had been suspicious for a very long time.
what one makes of a suspicion in the light of the latest norge doping cases isn't linear nor uncontroversial.

How do you say BINGO in Swedish?

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

Perhaps it's time the whole NO camp gets an indepent medical overhaul. Shouldn't take more than a few days to make sure symptoms are not being faked.
Incredible numbers, considering the likes of Sundby who self-medicate without TUE are also excluded.

I have to say, it seems that the NO situation is even worse than I ever suspected. When I first started to write in the thread a few years back, I was convinced that there was a big problem within Norwegian XC-skiing throughout the 90s, but didn't really believe something ever coming close to what we are seing wrapping around today's generation of skiers.

I guess Seppelä was spot on when he already in July did call out for an independent WADA investigation of Norway.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2016/07/25/finlandsk-antidopningschef-wada-bor-granska-de-norska-overdoserna

I fail to see how the last few revelations change anything with regards to Norwegian cross-country skiing. It was always known that they operated in a gray area. Ulvang even said as much in an interview sometime in between Albertville and Lillehammer. What is new, and important, is that these cases are now made public and reported on in the media. Finally we get an insight into the underlying practices and mindset of the Norwegian Skiing Federation.

In short: what we are now seeing is nothing new to those with even a little insight, what is new is that now 'everyone' can see it. Even those who are not looking.

Thank's for sticking it to me that I'm lacking even "little insight" and belong to a group of people who even not are looking.
Norwegian?

The phrase was not directed at you or anyone in the clinic - can anyone here be accused of not looking? No, it was directed at those followers of Norwegian cross country skiing that still pretend that all is good. I really wish people would take a step back and relax about this whole thing.

Back to the topic at hand: In line with what Ulvang said in that interview back in the early nineties (Dæhlie was sitting by his side) it would be easy for the Norwegian Skiing Federation to state that the reason they operate in the gray area is because the competition does the same and worse (which is what I thought that Ulvang implied back then). The question is - why don't they? Such a statement would certainly resonate with the thinking of a large part of the Norwegian fans.

 

[BullsFan22]

And speaking of amount of times athletes get tested, here is news of Bjoerndalen missing a test. The news came out exactly three years ago, four months before won gold in Sochi at the age of 40. Of course missing 1 test isn't earth shattering, but it did happen.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/wintersport/weltklasse-biathlet-ole-einar-bjoerndalen-verpasst-doping-test-a-928474.html

 

[Cloxxki]

With the overhaul I mentioned...
Stick them in a nice WADA hotel for a few days. Training under supervision (no encourage), in Davos (anti-asthma capital of world, cleanest air?). see if they can produce genuine symptom there. And if they do, how much it actually takes to remedy or prevent it. 1600+ microogram via vaporizer before a training, just in case? Nah...
And then, it could be tried again in a astma-sensitive environment. A running treadmill on a hay attick? I nearly suffocated once hauling hay.

Anyway, don't let Norge/FIS docs approve their pharmacy shopping lists of their own athletes. Didn't they just ruin this leap of faith by now? Nothing wrong with a bitt of transparency, surely?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

With the overhaul I mentioned...
Stick them in a nice WADA hotel for a few days. Training under supervision (no encourage), in Davos (anti-asthma capital of world, cleanest air?). see if they can produce genuine symptom there. And if they do, how much it actually takes to remedy or prevent it. 1600+ microogram via vaporizer before a training, just in case? Nah...
And then, it could be tried again in a astma-sensitive environment. A running treadmill on a hay attick? I nearly suffocated once hauling hay.

Anyway, don't let Norge/FIS docs approve their pharmacy shopping lists of their own athletes. Didn't they just ruin this leap of faith by now? Nothing wrong with a bitt of transparency, surely?

That's not a bad idea. I think they ought to do that with every team.

What's funny to me is this 'grey' area that everyone seems to love to use these days. I mean, I know what that means, but really? I have a hard time believing that it's simply a 'grey area' matter at this point.

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

I have a hard time believing that it's simply a 'grey area' matter at this point.

That is the big issue. Fans of Norwegian skiing and British cycling would like to think that this grey area is big enough to contain substances that are strong enough to explain their favourite athletes keeping up with known drug users. When an athlete speaks of a grey area it often comes across as a sort of pre-emptive strike/limited hangout (insert blackcat onanisms...)

Also, in the event that all these athletes do is take advantage of a grey area, do they (or their federations) have to resort to corruption/favouritism/blackmail to pull it off? Just how much bending of the rules does it take to thrive in that grey area?

 

[Cloxxki]

People get penalized now for having a banned substance in their green tea. Why would lip cream be OK, because the doc takes the blame? Double standards. And WADA should do their job and ring the biggest alarm they have. Norwegians are awesome, but not more equal.

 

[kosmonaut]

Has Johaug any missed tests? If not, she should definitely have produced a doorbell excuse on this one if she was intentionally on the stuff.

It think the 'not being tested enough' is a bad argument. We all know certain people that were tested all the time and doped big time – it makes things more predictable and just another hurdle. Being tested less often obviously worked very well in our case at hand.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Has Johaug any missed tests? If not, she should definitely have produced a doorbell excuse on this one if she was intentionally on the stuff.

It think the 'not being tested enough' is a bad argument. We all know certain people that were tested all the time and doped big time – it makes things more predictable and just another hurdle. Being tested less often obviously worked very well in our case at hand.

I agree that the number of tests are not the issue here. What is peculiar though, is that the undisputable number one in XC-skiing isn't tested at all during 4 months off-season.