Dumoulin.

[Bardamu]

Can you elaborate on his bad relationship with Barguil. Haven't heard it before.

 

[Eviter]

It is a long story, I'll cut out a few details. It is partly because of Spenkenbrink (don't forget this name, this guy is the Dutch Dave, he is just as dodgy only not that well-known) that preferred Dumoulin from the start back even when they singed Barguil full-time after he won l'Avenir.

Short story; Barguil apparently isn't happy they build the whole team around Dumoulin after promising the same to him after getting rid of Kittel and Degenkolb although they're training partners. Dumoulin gets special treatment and Barguil doesn't get chances anymore because Spenkenbrink always shows up frustrated in the media not to lose his World tour place because that already almost happened last few years, and that is why they turned to Matthews this year even for Barguils races that Kelderman can't race (remember Spenkenbrink even wanted Dumoulin to ride the RVV and P-R). The Dutch guys aren't very positive Barguil and Dumoulin always goes for his own chances in race where Barguil is the leader and in the media the fans back them.

Also remember the best domestique in Sunweb is Kelderman (a good friend of Dumoulin from when they rode together at Rabobank), who isn't on friendly terms because Barguil had some words with him after Bagnères-de-Luchon last year, to the point where Kelderman will (probably with Dumoulin) head the Vuelta line-up and they'll send nobody with Barguil in the TDF, in fact, after his spat out with Kelderman Dutch cycling fans just started hating on Wawa like spoiled brats,.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It is a long story, I'll cut out a few details. It is partly because of Spenkenbrink (don't forget this name, this guy is the Dutch Dave, he is just as dodgy only not that well-known) that preferred Dumoulin from the start back even when they singed Barguil full-time after he won l'Avenir.

Short story; Barguil apparently isn't happy they build the whole team around Dumoulin after promising the same to him after getting rid of Kittel and Degenkolb although they're training partners. Dumoulin gets special treatment and Barguil doesn't get chances anymore because Spenkenbrink always shows up frustrated in the media not to lose his World tour place because that already almost happened last few years, and that is why they turned to Matthews this year even for Barguils races that Kelderman can't race (remember Spenkenbrink even wanted Dumoulin to ride the RVV and P-R). The Dutch guys aren't very positive Barguil and Dumoulin always goes for his own chances in race where Barguil is the leader and in the media the fans back them.

Also remember the best domestique in Sunweb is Kelderman (a good friend of Dumoulin from when they rode together at Rabobank), who isn't on friendly terms because Barguil had some words with him after Bagnères-de-Luchon last year, to the point where Kelderman will (probably with Dumoulin) head the Vuelta line-up and they'll send nobody with Barguil in the TDF, in fact, after his spat out with Kelderman Dutch cycling fans just started hating on Wawa like spoiled brats,.

Whoever decided that Dumoulin rather than Barguil was the GC prospect to bet on seems at this point to have been proven 100% correct. Still though, the idea that Barguil "doesn't get chances any more" when he is their Tour leader just seems bizarre. Sure he will get bad support, but Dumoulin also got bad support and Kelderman will too. They simply don't have good support to offer a GC man unless they decide to concentrate on one GT with two of these guys riding for the third. Even the biggest fan of Barguil could hardly imagine that it would be the other two riding for him if they did that though.

What's the complaint here supposed to be? That a guy whose best GT result is eighth in a Vuelta doesn't have undisputed leadership over an entire WT team?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Barguil had 2 chances with full support. Even from Dumoulin who rode him up to the front in mountain stages in the Tour.
Everytime Barguil didn't get further than top 15. He had full support from Dumoulin again in LBL, but dropped earlier and in the end Matthews turned out to be the strongest.

I'm sorry but I think Barguil simply doesn't have it, and now Dumoulin won a GT and came close to winning another one 2 years before..
I don't think Sunweb will give up on Barguil just now, but if he doesn't come up with something remarkable this TDF he will either be a support man for Dumoulin or have to focus on Vuelta/Giro.

Complaining about support is hilarious anyway because it's the only way to become al eader in a GT, to go to Sunweb a few years ago when they had no climbers. Dumoulin had no support in the Vuelta 15 and almost no support this Giro (after Kelderman was gone), still did it. Barguil has no grounds to complain

 

[Roninho]

Re:

Barguil had 2 chances with full support. Even from Dumoulin who rode him up to the front in mountain stages in the Tour.
Everytime Barguil didn't get further than top 15. He had full support from Dumoulin again in LBL, but dropped earlier and in the end Matthews turned out to be the strongest.

I'm sorry but I think Barguil simply doesn't have it, and now Dumoulin won a GT and came close to winning another one 2 years before..
I don't think Sunweb will give up on Barguil just now, but if he doesn't come up with something remarkable this TDF he will either be a support man for Dumoulin or have to focus on Vuelta/Giro.

Barguil is 25 years old.
He has finished 6t, 6th, 8th, 9th and 9th in LBL, Lombardia, sebastian and FW.
He finished 8th overall in the Vuelta and 3rd overall in the Tour de Suisse.
He has won 2 Vuelta stages.

It would be stupid to give up on a 25 year old with that kind of palmares, so i agree that i don't see Sunweb giving up on him yet.

I do think that he will have to accept that he either has to be domestique in the TDF (next to a free role/team leader role in other tours/classics) or simply not ride the TDF. And i'm not sure if Barguil is willing to be a domestique or not ride the TDF.

 

[Red Rick]

Both Vuelta stages were breakaways, and the fact that his results haven't improved much in the last few years should show you there's not that much improvement to be made.

He's a solid climber and rider, but in the end Barguil is gonna have to decide what kind of rider he wants to be and Sunweb has to decide if they want to facilitate that.

 

[roundabout]

Both Vuelta stages wins were when he was 22 years old first year pro riding his first GT.

And to be blunt, I don't see why it should be Barguil's issue alone that his results have seemingly not improved much since his second pro year.

Well, apart from the obvious wish from certain posters for him to either leave the team, or give up most of his own ambitions.

 

[Eviter]

Re:

It is a long story,

Whoever decided that Dumoulin rather than Barguil was the GC prospect to bet on seems at this point to have been proven 100% correct. Still though, the idea that Barguil "doesn't get chances any more" when he is their Tour leader just seems bizarre. Sure he will get bad support, but Dumoulin also got bad support and Kelderman will too. They simply don't have good support to offer a GC man unless they decide to concentrate on one GT with two of these guys riding for the third. Even the biggest fan of Barguil could hardly imagine that it would be the other two riding for him if they did that though.

What's the complaint here supposed to be? That a guy whose best GT result is eighth in a Vuelta doesn't have undisputed leadership over an entire WT team?

Although I agree he needs to be put in...a place (let that be clear, my point was that he doesn't know his place yet) he is a potential French malliot blanc Tour winner of a WT tour team that will get Oomen as best domestique. Seems a little harsh, then just be honest with him about Dumoulin.

Barguil had 2 chances with full support. Even from Dumoulin who rode him up to the front in mountain stages in the Tour.
Everytime Barguil didn't get further than top 15. He had full support from Dumoulin again in LBL, but dropped earlier and in the end Matthews turned out to be the strongest.

Complaining about support is hilarious anyway because it's the only way to become al eader in a GT, to go to Sunweb a few years ago when they had no climbers. Dumoulin had no support in the Vuelta 15 and almost no support this Giro (after Kelderman was gone), still did it. Barguil has no grounds to complain

Dumoulin admitted in one stage in the TDF he had no orders to support him uphill, he just helped him between the mountains on the occasion.

The problem I elaborated on is not the lack of support, it is the fact he was promised it. We are talking about a guy who took the mountain, sprint and general overall of l'avenir at 20 y.o. He won't let this go down that easily.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Both Vuelta stages wins were when he was 22 years old first year pro riding his first GT.

And to be blunt, I don't see why it should be Barguil's issue alone that his results have seemingly not improved much since his second pro year.

Well, apart from the obvious wish from certain posters for him to either leave the team, or give up most of his own ambitions.

I like Barguil and I haven't adopted a vicarious Dutch nationalism. But I don't see how a rider who hasn't won a race since 2013 and has only one half decent GT GC result, eighth in a Vuelta, has been mistreated by a team that continuously gives him the leader's role in many major races each year despite his lack of results. It seems to me that they've been very loyal to him and given him a great deal of leeway because of the very promising results he had 3 to 5 years ago. They haven't built a team around him, but he hasn't done anything in years to suggest that doing that would be wise. I still think he's a big talent but let's be honest about it: it's hard to see any other WT team sending a rider who has so little GC record to the Tour de France as undisputed leader. Barguil should be grateful, not upset that his domestiques aren't great. He's 25 now and still dining out on his results as a 21-22 year old.

Let's see him show something as a GC rider, then he can reasonably demand better support.

 

[therealthing]

That was insane. He was on the border of catching Froome on a climb FFS!

 

[Benotti69]

Motoring...........

 

[Eviter]

This was ridiculous. I agree that he could've won but 1 min? 1 whole min? You know, when he got broken by Aru I kind of defended him, but this is getting suspicious behind recognition. And please understand me, I do truly hope he is clean....haha, but this is the line. For me at least. I get Froome 2 GTs, but the fact that he only won 1/3 of his time on the last climb does it for me.

My only problem is, should we accept it, just because we know that he will end the Sky-domination? I don't think so, I could just as well go support Moscon or Valverde until he rides along with his grandchildren.

 

[ontheroad]

He is being groomed as the next heir of the peloton and it's only a matter of time before the baton is handed from Froome to Dumoulin. That performance was insane when you think that he was just 9 seconds from catching Froome on the final climb such was his dominance and didn't even look to be suffering all that much. But Kirby told us after the race that he is a cycling genius so maybe it's all just down to natural talent.

 

[Craigee]

He was very upset when he heard about Wiggins and the TUE's so he must be honest.

 

[ontheroad]

I do like Dumoulin, he looks a natural on a bike and has got a bit of charisma off it. There is a big difference in saying that though and saying that he is clean.

 

[rick james]

He's no chris froome that's for sure

 

[Eviter]

He even told Dutch reporters he drove extremely cautious because he stayed on his TT-bike and it was too slippery through the corners. This is the last climb we're talking about. So he didn't even max out. He wanted to say hi to Froome. Get outta here. This kid...
I'm gonna take this moment to apologize in advance for the amount of Dutch people that will flock to this thread from next year on defending him.

 

[GraftPunk]

So close to pulling a Ulle on the dawg, which would have made me LOL. But yeah, crazy suspicious. As has been mentioned, Froome has two grand tours in him, and Tom D. skipped a couple to focus on worlds, but still. A minute? Jeez.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Don't really see how today raises new suspicions. Sure, a minute is a large margin even on a tough course, but the route was tailor made for him, he was the only favourite who had prepared for months (perhaps bar Dennis, but the course was less suited for him and he of course fell) and Froome was clearly tired. Aside from that, this result was in line with similar time trials he's done in recent years. The gaps were larger in the 2016 Tour TT he won, and I wouldn't say that one was much harder than today.

That doesn't mean there are no reasons to suspect him, but today didn't really provide any new evidence.

 

[maarten]

Articles are quoting Dumoulin saying:

“I thought my power meter was off the number was so high! I felt really, really good.”

Hmmm, I wonder how you end up with a performance far beyond what you've been able to do in training?

Coincidentally, the women's TT race was won by Dutch woman. Hmmmm. Shared doctor?

 

[DanielSong39]

He hasn't beaten Dennis by 10+ seconds on a 10km flat time trial so I guess there's a limit to everything.

Dumoulin was the deserved favorite, though. The hill and the length of the course hurt Dennis' chances and most of the other contenders weren't peaking for this event. Winning is not a surprise but the margin... hmm.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Dumoulin is no specialist for flat time trials so that's no surprise. He's good, but nothing special on flat courses. Give him some rolling hills along the way and that changes things.

In a 40/50km flat ITT there are probably 3/4 guys who will beat him most of the time

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Don't really see how today raises new suspicions. Sure, a minute is a large margin even on a tough course, but the route was tailor made for him, he was the only favourite who had prepared for months (perhaps bar Dennis, but the course was less suited for him and he of course fell) and Froome was clearly tired. Aside from that, this result was in line with similar time trials he's done in recent years. The gaps were larger in the 2016 Tour TT he won, and I wouldn't say that one was much harder than today.

That doesn't mean there are no reasons to suspect him, but today didn't really provide any new evidence.

I agree. I'd also argue that TTs in general don't hold the same allure as they once did for fans or riders, so there aren't many riders putting in the time to master the discipline, a la Bardet.

But maybe that's just because I find them really boring to watch in TV.

 

[pastronef]

Dumo interview on main page

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tom-dumoulin-2018-tour-de-france-participation-depends-on-the-route/

Dutchman not in favour of banning power meters in races
“I have to say that in my opinion, Contador is overestimating the influence that this instrument has on Froome’s racing style, for example. I don’t think Chris uses it that much. And the others don’t either. You could take them away, but it wouldn’t change much.”

 

[pastronef]

https://www.twitter.com/WestemeyerSusan/status/982177250505211904

tom dumoulin says he has used Salbutamol in the past and would do so again if needed