Dumoulin.

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Jul 28, 2009
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I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
 
Re:

Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
I remember doping being mentioned a few times after Dumoulin's 2015 transformation. And he basically said something like ''if I saw someone do that transformation, I would think they were doping as well". Since then, despite him improving several levels, to the point where he should have won the Giro and would have been in strong contention for the Tour, it's all gone very quiet.

My guess is that Dutch sport is in such a nadir at the moment in general, that they are trying to cling to every bit of success they can. Both the fanboys and the media are in a state right now where they are willing to believe in miracles it seems.
 
Jul 13, 2016
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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
I remember doping being mentioned a few times after Dumoulin's 2015 transformation. And he basically said something like ''if I saw someone do that transformation, I would think they were doping as well". Since then, despite him improving several levels, to the point where he should have won the Giro and would have been in strong contention for the Tour, it's all gone very quiet.

My guess is that Dutch sport is in such a nadir at the moment in general, that they are trying to cling to every bit of success they can. Both the fanboys and the media are in a state right now where they are willing to believe in miracles it seems.
Dutch sport is doing quite well actually, it's just that in the #1 sport football they have been terribly average for the first time in ages. They're doing well in both the Summer and Winter Olympics and have a F1 star and now a strong cycling generation.

And regarding that it's been quiet surrounding Dumoulin I guess it has to do with his team being actively anti-doping (yes, Sky was that as well before), Dumoulin sharing his data with journalists when they ask for it, and that the few people in their team from the "doping generation" are known to be non-dopers (Ten Dam).

It doesn't mean that he doesn't dope, the public should never become too naïve, but atleast from the outside Dumoulin looks like a very honest and transparent guy.
 
Jul 6, 2016
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Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
The Dutch media are very strange. In the last couple of years at least in any preview before a big race they made some remarks about 'the D-word', every single newspaper was involved in a quite laughable battle about who could dig the best in the past. That lead to some horribly naive interviews with some doctors from centuries ago who pointed their fingers to some big shots from the past, without very specific proof.

And when Mollema and Ten Dam in 2013 created a mini-hype with their low top ten GC placings, it was suddenly all about 'riding top ten GC is possible on bread and peanut butter, here's your proof!' and now with Sunweb taking it to another level with Dumoulin all those formerly known as extremely critical journalists only echo the words of the directors about their severe anti-doping policy etcetera.

Hypocritical next level 3.0

Now I think about it, even Froome and Sky weren't questioned that much. Apparently the fact that the Brits suddenly could blow away the Spaniards and Italians was enough proof in Dutchieland that 'the times have changed for the good'.

Another strange thing: the little shrimps, Italians from Proconti teams, Russians or Kazakhs who've never been remarkably competitive, are almost always suddenly suspect when they're showing some results, but the likes of Sagan or other WT stars who simply ALLWAYS show up when it matters are hardly put to the sword. So crazy naive, I almost got to believe there has to be some conspiracy behind it. No one can be that stupid.
 
Jul 13, 2016
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Re: Re:

Pennino said:
Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
The Dutch media are very strange. In the last couple of years at least in any preview before a big race they made some remarks about 'the D-word', every single newspaper was involved in a quite laughable battle about who could dig the best in the past. That lead to some horribly naive interviews with some doctors from centuries ago who pointed their fingers to some big shots from the past, without very specific proof.

And when Mollema and Ten Dam in 2013 created a mini-hype with their low top ten GC placings, it was suddenly all about 'riding top ten GC is possible on bread and peanut butter, here's your proof!' and now with Sunweb taking it to another level with Dumoulin all those formerly known as extremely critical journalists only echo the words of the directors about their severe anti-doping policy etcetera.

Hypocritical next level 3.0

Now I think about it, even Froome and Sky weren't questioned that much. Apparently the fact that the Brits suddenly could blow away the Spaniards and Italians was enough proof in Dutchieland that 'the times have changed for the good'.

Another strange thing: the little shrimps, Italians from Proconti teams, Russians or Kazakhs who've never been remarkably competitive, are almost always suddenly suspect when they're showing some results, but the likes of Sagan or other WT stars who simply ALLWAYS show up when it matters are hardly put to the sword. So crazy naive, I almost got to believe there has to be some conspiracy behind it. No one can be that stupid.
It's even more blatant in other sports. When the Dutch dominate in speedskating it is because of their "professionalism", if one Russian guy does well it obviously has to do with their doping culture.
 
Jul 6, 2016
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Bardamu said:
Pennino said:
Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
The Dutch media are very strange. In the last couple of years at least in any preview before a big race they made some remarks about 'the D-word', every single newspaper was involved in a quite laughable battle about who could dig the best in the past. That lead to some horribly naive interviews with some doctors from centuries ago who pointed their fingers to some big shots from the past, without very specific proof.

And when Mollema and Ten Dam in 2013 created a mini-hype with their low top ten GC placings, it was suddenly all about 'riding top ten GC is possible on bread and peanut butter, here's your proof!' and now with Sunweb taking it to another level with Dumoulin all those formerly known as extremely critical journalists only echo the words of the directors about their severe anti-doping policy etcetera.

Hypocritical next level 3.0

Now I think about it, even Froome and Sky weren't questioned that much. Apparently the fact that the Brits suddenly could blow away the Spaniards and Italians was enough proof in Dutchieland that 'the times have changed for the good'.

Another strange thing: the little shrimps, Italians from Proconti teams, Russians or Kazakhs who've never been remarkably competitive, are almost always suddenly suspect when they're showing some results, but the likes of Sagan or other WT stars who simply ALLWAYS show up when it matters are hardly put to the sword. So crazy naive, I almost got to believe there has to be some conspiracy behind it. No one can be that stupid.
It's even more blatant in other sports. When the Dutch dominate in speedskating it is because of their "professionalism", if one Russian guy does well it obviously has to do with their doping culture.
Haha, exactly. And also outside the field of sports. The Netherlands are one happy nation where no one even feels the need to be corrupt or to be a fraud.
 
Jul 6, 2016
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Saint Unix said:
Not to forget Dafne Schippers who can crush rocks with her jaw.
I must admit here and there I saw some eyebrows raised. But lately her results aren't that special anymore so there's not too much reason to focus on that.
 
Jul 13, 2016
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Pennino said:
Saint Unix said:
Not to forget Dafne Schippers who can crush rocks with her jaw.
I must admit here and there I saw some eyebrows raised. But lately her results aren't that special anymore so there's not too much reason to focus on that.
Just wait until she has to perform for the World Championships or Olympics.
 
Feb 3, 2013
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Dafne Schippers results went to *** when she started working with Rana Reider. An American sprinting "coach" and "creator of champions (tm)" that fed her steroids until she looked like a East German from the 70's.
 
Ofcourse it's chauvinism. But it's also because of Sunweb being involed in MPCC, Dumoulin saying he wouldn't ride the Giro if he was Froome (and still under investigation), stuff like that. They are not under the cloud of suspicion yet because, unlike Sky, they haven't had a jiffy bag, or other incidents happen and discovered.

Meaning most likely they are covering their tracks better than Sky have
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Roninho said:
I find it even more remarkable that nobody in the Dutch media even dares to bring up the subject of doping. So many legitimate reasons to at least mention it:
* The whole Rabobank drama that basically implicated everybody in dutch cycling
* Basically all GT contenders have been implicated with doping in the past 2-3 decades. The last GT guy to do a podium double Giro-Tour was Pantani. And now Dumoulin does a double?
* At the start of sunweb (the shimano/argos years) they focused on sprinters with a line that this was a better way to compete compared to going for a GC. That story has slowly dissapeared

etc.
I remember doping being mentioned a few times after Dumoulin's 2015 transformation. And he basically said something like ''if I saw someone do that transformation, I would think they were doping as well". Since then, despite him improving several levels, to the point where he should have won the Giro and would have been in strong contention for the Tour, it's all gone very quiet.

My guess is that Dutch sport is in such a nadir at the moment in general, that they are trying to cling to every bit of success they can. Both the fanboys and the media are in a state right now where they are willing to believe in miracles it seems.
Any country that has Dafne Schippers wearing its uniform is doing OK.
 
Whatever Dumo is doing, is really good stuff- he ALONE is defying SKY and thus has become the rightful Tour de France favorite in the coming editions. Despite all the moral, double talk, double standards & hypocrisy around the topic, Dumo to me just had it with the SKY bvllsh!tt and decide to take matters in his own hands....

don't blame the players - blame the Game :D
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Ofcourse it's chauvinism. But it's also because of Sunweb being involed in MPCC, Dumoulin saying he wouldn't ride the Giro if he was Froome (and still under investigation), stuff like that. They are not under the cloud of suspicion yet because, unlike Sky, they haven't had a jiffy bag, or other incidents happen and discovered.

Meaning most likely they are covering their tracks better than Sky have
Yes, thats chauvinism.

Watched a lot of it at Dutch tv during the Tour.

Tom this, Tom that, Tom crapped, Tom peeed.

Endeering is my word for it.

Especially when anti - doping - former cyclist from AD Zonneveld joined the table.

The D word was never mentioned, except for D Dumoulin.

That's hypocracy.

Having a big mouth about Sky while in the same time your fellow countryman is beating the Frommel.

Very good recovery skills by Sunweb!
 
yes, that was a non-standard situation. froome almost beating the world champion in TT was ludicrious, while dimoulin dropping froome in the pyrenees didn't raise any doubts. though, yet in may especially after the giro stages 19 and 20 froome had been considered as a rider from another dimension when it came to climbing. something doesn't add up.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Yes, thats chauvinism.

Watched a lot of it at Dutch tv during the Tour.

Tom this, Tom that, Tom crapped, Tom peeed.

Endeering is my word for it.

Especially when anti - doping - former cyclist from AD Zonneveld joined the table.

The D word was never mentioned, except for D Dumoulin.

That's hypocracy.

Having a big mouth about Sky while in the same time your fellow countryman is beating the Frommel.

Very good recovery skills by Sunweb!
I don't see Zonneveld or the tv guys (nelissen, Ducrot, Dijkstra) as journalists. They are commentators who rely on the popularity of cycling in the Netherlands to keep having a good paying gig. Which means hyping the dutch guys, and every now and then commentate on a doping scandal with preferably some eastern/southern european cyclists involved. But putting pressure on Dumoulin regarding doping is like killing their golden goose.

And i don't blame them for that. I'm more amazed by the lack of interest from real 'investigative' journalists to dig deep and expose the doping rigs. If you want to make a name for yourself as a journalist there should be somewhere some gold to find when digging into Daphe,Dumoulin and the Dutch ice skaters.
 
Jul 6, 2016
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Re: Re:

Roninho said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Yes, thats chauvinism.

Watched a lot of it at Dutch tv during the Tour.

Tom this, Tom that, Tom crapped, Tom peeed.

Endeering is my word for it.

Especially when anti - doping - former cyclist from AD Zonneveld joined the table.

The D word was never mentioned, except for D Dumoulin.

That's hypocracy.

Having a big mouth about Sky while in the same time your fellow countryman is beating the Frommel.

Very good recovery skills by Sunweb!
I don't see Zonneveld or the tv guys (nelissen, Ducrot, Dijkstra) as journalists. They are commentators who rely on the popularity of cycling in the Netherlands to keep having a good paying gig. Which means hyping the dutch guys, and every now and then commentate on a doping scandal with preferably some eastern/southern european cyclists involved. But putting pressure on Dumoulin regarding doping is like killing their golden goose.

And i don't blame them for that. I'm more amazed by the lack of interest from real 'investigative' journalists to dig deep and expose the doping rigs. If you want to make a name for yourself as a journalist there should be somewhere some gold to find when digging into Daphe,Dumoulin and the Dutch ice skaters.
It's a bit strange indeed. A couple of years ago Dutch runner Adriënne Herzog almost got her career jeopardized by a journalist who was handed some secret e-mails in which she asked for dope, that was a good bit of digging. But now he rightly chooses to write the more generic pieces about the mother of Sagan or some hero who's back on track after an accident.
 
I think there was a semi-critical article from a journalist in de Volkskrant after last year Giro, but he got vilified for it... ofcourse

They won't dare.. for now.
Like I said, only if there's something shady discovered and coming out, then they will start investigating. F.e if Sunweb have an TUE for something leaked or weird incident.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Roninho said:
I don't see Zonneveld or the tv guys (nelissen, Ducrot, Dijkstra) as journalists. They are commentators who rely on the popularity of cycling in the Netherlands to keep having a good paying gig. Which means hyping the dutch guys, and every now and then commentate on a doping scandal with preferably some eastern/southern european cyclists involved. But putting pressure on Dumoulin regarding doping is like killing their golden goose.

And i don't blame them for that. I'm more amazed by the lack of interest from real 'investigative' journalists to dig deep and expose the doping rigs. If you want to make a name for yourself as a journalist there should be somewhere some gold to find when digging into Daphe,Dumoulin and the Dutch ice skaters.
Zonneveld is the guy who framed Karsten Kroon just to score a nice anti - doping story last month.

Sees himself as some anti - doping bloke, endeering.

The others are like Carlton Kirby. I gave Ducrot a hard time on twitter years ago about his own use of doping, he couldnt stand it, instant blockage. Not that there is a lot to miss but the Dutch press are chearleaders, like everywhere else.

Which I can understand, just shut about doping of others when you wont even look at the slightest possibility one of your nationals might be doing it as well.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I think there was a semi-critical article from a journalist in de Volkskrant after last year Giro, but he got vilified for it... ofcourse

They won't dare.. for now.
Like I said, only if there's something shady discovered and coming out, then they will start investigating. F.e if Sunweb have an TUE for something leaked or weird incident.
What i am aiming at is not a journo asking Dumoulin tough questions, because well you don't have a smoking gun, Dumoulin will just deny and after a while get angry since you keep on asking the same questions without any evidence. Quickly you will get vilified for that. Which i actually understands as well, because you are basically attacking the guy without anything (except logic, 1+1= as Ullrich said before ;-) )

What i am surprised by is why there isnt a journalist who tries to find the smoking gun and go for an undercover operation and expose the doping network surrounding top athletes. There are a bunch of these type of reports in crime, motor clubs, fraud ('opgelicht') etc on tv and in other media in the Netherlands.

With all the doping cases in topsports that we have seen in the past years i would think that there should be something to dig up on one of the dutch top athletes in cycling, athletics or skating. And this would be huge news.
 
Re: Re:

Roninho said:
With all the doping cases in topsports that we have seen in the past years i would think that there should be something to dig up on one of the dutch top athletes in cycling, athletics or skating. And this would be huge news.
Funny you should mention this.
Today in the news: Dutch ice skaters and cyclists using Thyroid hormone because they think it helps them lose weight and may have other benefits...
 
Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Ofcourse it's chauvinism. But it's also because of Sunweb being involed in MPCC, Dumoulin saying he wouldn't ride the Giro if he was Froome (and still under investigation), stuff like that. They are not under the cloud of suspicion yet because, unlike Sky, they haven't had a jiffy bag, or other incidents happen and discovered.

Meaning most likely they are covering their tracks better than Sky have
Yes, thats chauvinism.

Watched a lot of it at Dutch tv during the Tour.

Tom this, Tom that, Tom crapped, Tom peeed.

Endeering is my word for it.

Especially when anti - doping - former cyclist from AD Zonneveld joined the table.

The D word was never mentioned, except for D Dumoulin.

That's hypocracy.

Having a big mouth about Sky while in the same time your fellow countryman is beating the Frommel.

Very good recovery skills by Sunweb!
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was an article in the Flemish media last winter or early spring about how the Tour de France was actually Dumoulin's main target this season, rather than the Giro. A "rumor" which Sunweb denied, of course...

During the Tour, Dumoulin claimed to a TV reporter that he had lost weight after the Giro, to explain his superior climbing in the French race.

So he supposedly lost more than a few pounds, which I'm guessing is true, but did he use better dope in the latter race besides (additional) weight loss drugs to take his climbing to an unprecedented level?
 
Obviously the dude is doping.

However we shouldn't be surprised that a dude with 1 Giro win and 1 Tour runner-up finish is getting less scrutiny than the dude who just won the Tour easily while rarely shifting out of neutral.

People always go after the lowest hanging fruit first.
 

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