Dumoulin.

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

For me, it's his build that amazes me, he has these huge shoulders.
Ok, he's young and developing, and not sure where his real talent lies.....
But how can he just loose weight without power?
Did Cancelarra just never try that because he thought it was all about the drugs???

Wait, you think that Fab rode clean?!

That's decidedly not what coinneach is saying.

Fab was undeniably one of the best TT riders around. And definitely not 80+ kg as suggested previously a few posts upthread.

So why didn't he just lose a few kgs and win a few GTs? Seems anyone can do it these days?

I think because Canc was pre Aicar. That was 2008. Then in 2010's he went for cobbled classics and to hell with the Tour. Give Canc Aicar though in 2009 or 2012 and he wins the Tour imo.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

For me, it's his build that amazes me, he has these huge shoulders.
Ok, he's young and developing, and not sure where his real talent lies.....
But how can he just loose weight without power?
Did Cancelarra just never try that because he thought it was all about the drugs???

Wait, you think that Fab rode clean?!

That's decidedly not what coinneach is saying.

Fab was undeniably one of the best TT riders around. And definitely not 80+ kg as suggested previously a few posts upthread.

So why didn't he just lose a few kgs and win a few GTs? Seems anyone can do it these days?

I think because Canc was pre Aicar. That was 2008. Then in 2010's he went for cobbled classics and to hell with the Tour. Give Canc Aicar though in 2009 or 2012 and he wins the Tour imo.

No disagreement from me.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

For me, it's his build that amazes me, he has these huge shoulders.
Ok, he's young and developing, and not sure where his real talent lies.....
But how can he just loose weight without power?
Did Cancelarra just never try that because he thought it was all about the drugs???

Wait, you think that Fab rode clean?!

That's decidedly not what coinneach is saying.

Fab was undeniably one of the best TT riders around. And definitely not 80+ kg as suggested previously a few posts upthread.

So why didn't he just lose a few kgs and win a few GTs? Seems anyone can do it these days?

I think because Canc was pre Aicar. That was 2008. Then in 2010's he went for cobbled classics and to hell with the Tour. Give Canc Aicar though in 2009 or 2012 and he wins the Tour imo.

I recall Rolf Sørensen talking a lot of how Cancellara could/should have lost weight and compete at the TDF GC some years ago.

But even il biondo seemed somewhat surprised with Domoulin today.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Doubt he's clean, but I sure as hell don't think he wins by out-doping his opponents.

May be a level playing field here

After "my guys are clean" comes "my guys would win clean too". It's the same kind of biased wishful thinking - the frauds are always the others.

Truth is we have no idea what kind of boost every rider is getting. Might well be that Dumoulin's getting the greatest boost of all. Might be he's more talented than the others and his talent is making up for some of the Clinicky disadvantage.

What's certain, though, is that there's never a level playing field.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

Personally, I don't find the "first week!" protestations all that convincing. It's not like he's done this before in the many first weeks of all the stage races he's done in his career.

If he fades in a few days, that won't delete what's already happened. Not that I'm convinced he'll fade, though.

Exactly 4 years ago (to the day I think maybe even) in this very subforum, I heard this exact same - first week protestation.

Oh come on, its just the first week. He's having a good day. He's doing well because its really hot and he's used to that because he's from Kenya. Nothing to see here, he will no doubt fade soon.

They quickly changed their arguments over the coming weeks of course.

Also happened with the guy called Chris... Hog & me seriously feared he´ll win. Unfortunately we were right. The others used the exact same phrases you described...
But this time it doesnt come out of nowhere. TD finished his first GT 41st (TdF 2013) & his second 33rd (TdF 2014) without even trying for a high CG placing. Leclerq talks about T-3-GT for him long before the clinic woke up...

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Doubt he's clean, but I sure as hell don't think he wins by out-doping his opponents.

May be a level playing field here

After "my guys are clean" comes "my guys would win clean too". It's the same kind of biased wishful thinking - the frauds are always the others.

Truth is we have no idea what kind of boost every rider is getting. Might well be that Dumoulin's getting the greatest boost of all. Might be he's more talented than the others and his talent is making up for some of the Clinicky disadvantage.

What's certain, though, is that there's never a level playing field.

Reminds me of all the Boonen fans a few years ago who finally accepted Boonen dopes, but they all just "knew" that Cancellara dopes way more than Boonen does and that therefore Boonen is the right guy to support.

 

[42x16ss]

Dumoulin's good at punching over small hills and I'm surprised that he's still mixing things up with the true climbers. I can't help but wonder how much the true conteders are holding back for stage 11. That will see the true start of the race IMO.

If Dumoulin is still in striking distance after that something truly stinks and this is not just the efforts of a puncheur digging deep to get another day in the race lead.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

lol.

I was wondering if he got this thread here and ofcourse he did

I had not looked for his thread in days past. After today's performance something inside of me told me that there would be a thread and here I am.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Dumoulin's good at punching over small hills and I'm surprised that he's still mixing things up with the true climbers. I can't help but wonder how much the true conteders are holding back for stage 11. That will see the true start of the race IMO.

If Dumoulin is still in striking distance after that something truly stinks and this is not just the efforts of a puncheur digging deep to get another day in the race lead.

You could replace Dumoulin with Thomas here and the post would read perfectly familiar.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re: Re:

Reminds me of all the Boonen fans a few years ago who finally accepted Boonen dopes, but they all just "knew" that Cancellara dopes way more than Boonen does and that therefore Boonen is the right guy to support.

Also those of us Contador fans who admit he dopes, but tell ourselves that he's more naturally gifted, so would be a contender anyway, therefore it's not too bad. It's just human nature to want to rationalize "your guy" this way. There's little way to know for sure whether that's actually true, but it makes fans feel better.

Some of the defense of Dumoulin sounds word-for-word like certain Froome defenses, which sounded just like defenses of other dopers. He's trying harder now. OK. At least Dumoulin didn't suck as badly as Froome in the early days. And at least he looks decent. If they're all going to dope, and the whole thing is just a sham, I don't wanna have to have look at the unfortunate alien, Mr. Sideburns, or bug-eyed LRP. That's shallow, but there it is. YMMV.

Side note: I don't mind what Fishface looks like, because I love how he tries.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Dumoulin's good at punching over small hills and I'm surprised that he's still mixing things up with the true climbers. I can't help but wonder how much the true conteders are holding back for stage 11. That will see the true start of the race IMO.

If Dumoulin is still in striking distance after that something truly stinks and this is not just the efforts of a puncheur digging deep to get another day in the race lead.

You could replace Dumoulin with Thomas here and the post would read perfectly familiar.

When Dumoulin gets over several HC (or in this case ESP) mountains with the very best, certainly.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Personally, I don't find the "first week!" protestations all that convincing. It's not like he's done this before in the many first weeks of all the stage races he's done in his career.

If he fades in a few days, that won't delete what's already happened. Not that I'm convinced he'll fade, though.

Exactly 4 years ago (to the day I think maybe even) in this very subforum, I heard this exact same - first week protestation.

Oh come on, its just the first week. He's having a good day. He's doing well because its really hot and he's used to that because he's from Kenya. Nothing to see here, he will no doubt fade soon.

They quickly changed their arguments over the coming weeks of course.

Well, obviously, whether one wants it or not, it's still the first week. Pretty much everyone defending him acknowledges that if he continues to perform throughout the race and stays among the very best, then he's worthy of suspicion. Not really comparable.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This reminds me of the debates over whether Schumacher was clean.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

This reminds me of the debates over whether Schumacher was clean.

Yes, this is surprising, but surely not on the same level as spending a week in the break and still smashing both TT's...

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Personally, I don't find the "first week!" protestations all that convincing. It's not like he's done this before in the many first weeks of all the stage races he's done in his career.

If he fades in a few days, that won't delete what's already happened. Not that I'm convinced he'll fade, though.

Exactly 4 years ago (to the day I think maybe even) in this very subforum, I heard this exact same - first week protestation.

Oh come on, its just the first week. He's having a good day. He's doing well because its really hot and he's used to that because he's from Kenya. Nothing to see here, he will no doubt fade soon.

They quickly changed their arguments over the coming weeks of course.

Well, obviously, whether one wants it or not, it's still the first week. Pretty much everyone defending him acknowledges that if he continues to perform throughout the race and stays among the very best, then he's worthy of suspicion. Not really comparable.

I certainly have suspicions, but I'm going to wait for stage 11 before I voice them. If Dumoulin is still in contention after that, it's open season as far as I'm concerned.

I just want to see how deep he's gone so far.

 

[Tyr]

Re: Tom Dumuolin is now a climber

Dumoulin just graduated to climber. One of the most incredible/ridicolous/doped transformations ever.

Quoted for dumbest post in these forums. Ever.

No I think the following is the winner for dumbest post.

Dumoulin has always climbed well in races where he TRIED, hes only now really discovering what he can do climbing wise, hes still young and steadily progressed over the years. Besides, he was always great in the hills, this was a 4km effort after all. Lets see how he does in Andorra.

He's never TRIED?! Are you serious? He's a *** bike racer he knows how good/bad he is at climbing, if he had enough he would have "tried". Cycling was never a matter of "trying"...

 

[The Hegelian]

Caveat: I saw the results first, then I saw the thread (on the assumption that there would be one), then I watched the climb.

Surely up there in the 2015 hall of fame. Tired or not, that was a quality field, with proper goats getting blown away.

I find it pretty suss when tt-diesel riders can hold on to great climbers. But attacking them multiple times and succeeding isn't suss. It's really quite a bit beyond that......

 

[proffate]

Re:

For me, it's his build that amazes me, he has these huge shoulders.
Ok, he's young and developing, and not sure where his real talent lies.....
But how can he just loose weight without power?
Did Cancelarra just never try that because he thought it was all about the drugs???

So now we judge climbing talent by shoulder width?? Tony Martin must secretly be the world's greatest climber then.

 

[WillemS]

I'm sure Dumoulin is hugely talented.

This performance left me speechless, though, inducing a emotional state of excitement and euphoria mixed with the pressing gut feeling of a skeptic. A quick glance over the history of cycling tells me that a "too good to be true" performance usually truly is just that, too good to be true. However, I can't deny that I intensely enjoyed his victory, that watching the replay gets my heart pumping, that the banal tendency to root for a fellow countryman gave me a huge rush. However, the elation of seeing a national hero in the making winning a magnificent race does not excuse one of being skeptical.

 

[armchairclimber]

The "WTF" look on Froome's face when TD passed him in the final yards was priceless.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I'm sure Dumoulin is hugely talented.

This performance left me speechless, though, inducing a emotional state of excitement and euphoria mixed with the pressing gut feeling of a skeptic. A quick glance over the history of cycling tells me that a "too good to be true" performance usually truly is just that, too good to be true. However, I can't deny that I intensely enjoyed his victory, that watching the replay gets my heart pumping, that the banal tendency to root for a fellow countryman gave me a huge rush. However, the elation of seeing a national hero in the making winning a magnificent race does not excuse one of being skeptical.

Noone riding a GT is a hack.

Your attitude is refreshing. I went through a similar time re: Cadel, whom I have ridden with (privately, not on a fondo or public event) and seen first hand what a good guy he is.

I was going to say he reminded me of JTL a few years ago but JTL was more dominant. Perhaps accounting for field quality it's the same?

 

[WillemS]

Re:

Thinking about it, I think Dumoulin is relatively untouchable since Giant-Alpecin's move to Germany.

First, the team has been heavily marketed as a "clean team". Now we know that's just PR hype of this age, but at least some of the media has played along, especially the "patriotic" Dutch national broadcasters, but I've seen a few references to the new and unique "approach" to cycling in other languages as well. Sure, PR will not convince the clinic skeptic, but the financial concerns of the UCI are with the general public, not the skeptics who are skeptic whatever happens. Cracking the image of a team from the "new generation of cycling" is something that will not happen lightly. As the general commentary I've seen is positive towards Dumoulin, not negative or skeptical, I think trying to crack him whatever it takes, targeting and such, will not be on the agenda.

Second, there's a huge potential market in Germany. With the return of live broadcasting, media attention and the German victories in major races, the public interest in cycling might just recover in Germany. Dealing such a blow to the only German-registered World Tour team is against every economical incentive for the UCI. Sure, we can advertise change and progression, but even if the UCI intends on changing anything, it will not do so by decimating the sport's financial stability. So high profile targets, like Sky, or geographically important players, like Giant-Alpecin, are a no-go. So, the UCI would probably opt to work in the background, but I think we can infer that the UCI lost most of those standoffs in the past as they can't really make true on the threats they make. (They tried with Astana.)

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Doubt he's clean, but I sure as hell don't think he wins by out-doping his opponents.

May be a level playing field here

After "my guys are clean" comes "my guys would win clean too". It's the same kind of biased wishful thinking - the frauds are always the others.

Truth is we have no idea what kind of boost every rider is getting. Might well be that Dumoulin's getting the greatest boost of all. Might be he's more talented than the others and his talent is making up for some of the Clinicky disadvantage.

What's certain, though, is that there's never a level playing field.

Reminds me of all the Boonen fans a few years ago who finally accepted Boonen dopes, but they all just "knew" that Cancellara dopes way more than Boonen does and that therefore Boonen is the right guy to support.

Where's all the dodgy circumstances? I think there's a few things slightly in favour of Dumoulin here (tactics, freshness). Everyone blew himself up. Dumoulin didn't. I just think it's premature to jump on the 'yeah he's got better dope that's the reason' bandwagon. Especially given his team and given that he did not come to the Vuelta to aim for GC.

If he raced for a team like Astana then it would have more merit imo

 

[WillemS]

Re: Re:

Noone riding a GT is a hack.

Your attitude is refreshing. I went through a similar time re: Cadel, whom I have ridden with (privately, not on a fondo or public event) and seen first hand what a good guy he is.

I was going to say he reminded me of JTL a few years ago but JTL was more dominant. Perhaps accounting for field quality it's the same?

Well, the major game changer for me was Armstrong. I used to watch him as a teenager, being amazed by the "big hero", but as time went and victories went on, the clues came in that something was off. The signs were probably there from the start, but I was too young and too ignorant of cycling to see them, but as I started to gain interest, I became more and more skeptical, even while many of my cycling friends were still firm believers and rooting for him.

However, I do think there's a huge difference between being skeptical, reading signs and observing potential abnormalities and definitive proof of someone using doping, both scientifically and legally. I think the current anti-doping system is not adequately equipped to do the latter.

 

[rekhyt]

Re: Re:

It's laughable to compare him to Indurain etc. He's always shown decent performances uphill, gradually improved over the last few years. Some itt act like he's come out of nowhere.
Still suspicious to outperform this field, though most here are greatly exaggerating.

Like Indurain.

Seriously, reading some comments it seems like Indurain came out of nowhere in 1991, when he had already won numerous stage races at Domoulin's age. Volta a Catalunya and Paris-Niza amongst others...

Should have started a new paragraph after "Indurain". Dumoulin is 10kg+ lighter than Indurain was, thus it doesn't make sense to compare these two. Never intended to make it sound like Big Mig came out of nowhere.