Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[gregrowlerson]

I don't usually let trolls get to me, but having Roglic compared to Evans and described as "working class".....

Admittedly the trolls have gotten the better of me on this occasion.

 

[Bonimenier]

I don't usually let trolls get to me, but having Roglic compared to Evans and described as "working class".....

Admittedly the trolls have gotten the better of me on this occasion.

It's almost impossible to grasp that a former TdF and WC winner gets compared to the second coming of Heras.

 

[Extinction]

The worst part (& most ironic) is UAE clearly considers Roglic to be the main threat.

As Lanterne Rouge noted in their latest upload, Pog tried to eliminate Roglic for good in stage 6. But, Jumbo has its favorites (WvA & Jonas) & they're committed to pursuing those goals first. The strategy on Thursday was detrimental to Roglic (WvA & Jonas breaking the peloton at one point with Rog in the second group), but they just kept on pushing. There was even talk on Eurosport during the cobbles stage of WvA & Vinge having preferential placement on the team car for their spare bikes.

They want Jonas as GC leader but don't have the balls to come out & tell Roglic he's done in the TdF. I've lost all respect for Maassen & co. Jumbo is a good team to race for all season, with great preparation & performance specialists, but their TdF approach is the worst.

They've had 4 seasons to win the TdF with Roglic & they've squandered each one with zero self-awareness or change of attitude among the sporting directors. After La Planche 2020, their 'solution' was to change bike supplier (ditch Bianchi & go Cervélo) & create another GC rider for the Tour (Vingegaard) since Dumoulin noped out of their work environment, i.e. Vinge who skipped all the usual foundational work (where are his one week race wins? Or podiums in GT's other than the TdF 2021?) & has been fast-tracked into leadership out of sheer desperation. It's also a huge middle finger flipped to Roglic with a giant 'pancarte' saying 'we don't trust you anymore', i.e. from a hierarchy just waiting to pounce on any sign of weakness to demote him & turn him into a super domestique (a super version of Kruijswijk, basically).

Well, is it any surprise everything goes to *** in a sport where mental fortitude is so important? Jumbo do absolutely nothing to defend Roglic (where's the protest against ASO for the bullsh*t bale of hay incident?).

I don't understand, though, how exactly Jumbo squandered Roglic's chances at winning the Tour over the last 4 years? In 2018-19 he was just not ready to beat Thomas-Bernal. In 2020 he got bettered on the last day by the greatest talent we have ever seen . Whereas last year he crashed badly and eventually pulled out, which wasn't Jumbo's fault, regardless of the fact that I agree with you they overextend themselves (like all this week with Wout and especially in this last stage - what was he doing? And what were they thinking?) to the point of hubris. In reality, however, Roglic had his chance in 2020, but alas failed to come through with the goods in spectacular fashion. And I respect the guy immensely

 

[gregrowlerson]

It's almost impossible to grasp that a former TdF and WC winner gets compared to the second coming of Heras.

Palmares doesn't necessarily align with skillset.

Roglic is closer to Indurain than to Heras.

 

[Extinction]

Palmares doesn't necessarily align with skillset.

Roglic is closer to Indurain than to Heras.

Indurain? Miguel crushed everyone in the tts, to then defend in the mountains. Whereas Roglic is more explosive in uphill finishes than the Spaniard ever was.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Indurain? Miguel crushed everyone in the tts, to then defend in the mountains. Whereas Roglic is more explosive in uphill finishes than the Spaniard ever was.

Closer, not close.

 

[Oldermanish]

Closer, not close.

This is a comparison not worth making. Indurain had the natural skills and was seriously ahead in the arms race that was Dr. Michelle Ferrari. That edge was compelling enough that another rider spent a fortune consulting with the Doctor and showed success that was, by local and regional assessment of his skills; way off the charts. Indurain was an rare talent with a cheating NASCAR crew. Roglic is raw talent in an era of very, very refined training. He does what he does.
I hadn't appreciated the JV straddle on several horses as much as this Tour. I would absolutely love a pure commitment to Primoz but he probably needs to earn it, AGAIN, tomorrow.

 

[Rackham]

I don't understand, though, how exactly Jumbo squandered Roglic's chances at winning the Tour over the last 4 years? In 2018-19 he was just not ready to beat Thomas-Bernal. In 2020 he got bettered on the last day by the greatest talent we have ever seen . Whereas last year he crashed badly and eventually pulled out, which wasn't Jumbo's fault, regardless of the fact that I agree with you they overextend themselves (like all this week with Wout and especially in this last stage - what was he doing? And what were they thinking?) to the point of hubris. In reality, however, Roglic had his chance in 2020, but alas failed to come through with the goods in spectacular fashion. And I respect the guy immensely

He could have won 2019 at his Vuelta level. Alaphilippe finished 4th, Thibaut Pinot was in contention all the way (no offense to Pinot, but Rogla is at a whole different stratosphere of rider) & he has always smashed Bernal over the past 3 years. Always. Then in 2020 he arrives at the TdF injured in a team completely obsessed with replicating Sky's train tactics. The Code Yellow documentary was edifying: in amongst plenty of B.S. Dumoulin was having a meltdown & the sporting directors were micromanaging absolutely everything to the point of tactical self-harm.

Last year? Sole leadership (at last) but a team that exploded on stage 3 around him, incapable of calling off WvA's stage hunting despite the fact Gesink had just crashed out & Tony Martin was injured, leaving Rog without his close protection sitting next to Colbrelli in the final hectic 20km. He's basically never been in the right conditions at the TdF, either tactically or in terms of physical condition (injured 3 years in a row now).

This is a comparison not worth making. Indurain had the natural skills and was seriously ahead in the arms race that was Dr. Michelle Ferrari. That edge was compelling enough that another rider spent a fortune consulting with the Doctor and showed success that was, by local and regional assessment of his skills; way off the charts. Indurain was an rare talent with a cheating NASCAR crew. Roglic is raw talent in an era of very, very refined training. He does what he does.
I hadn't appreciated the JV straddle on several horses as much as this Tour. I would absolutely love a pure commitment to Primoz but he probably needs to earn it, AGAIN, tomorrow.

The only way he's getting pure commitment in this TdF is if Vingegaard & WvA have a DNF.

Even then, Jumbo would probably say "Rog is nursing an injury & too far back in GC, therefor we're giving Kuss, Benoot & Laporte freedom to stage hunt & go for the Polka".

 

[Extinction]

He could have won 2019 at his Vuelta level. Alaphilippe finished 4th, Thibaut Pinot was in contention all the way (no offense to Pinot, but Rogla is at a whole different stratosphere of rider) & he has always smashed Bernal over the past 3 years. Always. Then in 2020 he arrives at the TdF injured in a team completely obsessed with replicating Sky's train tactics. The Code Yellow documentary was edifying: in amongst plenty of B.S. Dumoulin was having a meltdown & the sporting directors were micromanaging absolutely everything to the point of tactical self-harm.

Last year? Sole leadership (at last) but a team that exploded on stage 3 around him, incapable of calling off WvA's stage hunting despite the fact Gesink had just crashed out & Tony Martin was injured, leaving Rog without his close protection sitting next to Colbrelli in the final hectic 20km. He's basically never been in the right conditions at the TdF, either tactically or in terms of physical condition (injured 3 years in a row now).



The only way he's getting pure commitment in this TdF is if Vingegaard & WvA have a DNF.

Even then, Jumbo would probably say "Rog is nursing an injury & too far back in GC, therefor we're giving Kuss, Benoot & Laporte freedom to stage hunt & go for the Polka".

Good analysis. However, upon further consideration Primoz was 4th in his first Tour in 2018, a fantastic debut, but not ready to take yellow. The following year he comes in 3rd at the Giro, trumped in the end by a past peak Nibali and an unknown Equadorian Carapaz who wasn't even supposed to be in contention. I thus have doubts he could have won the 2019 Tour, despite the legitimate reasons you point out. In 2019 it was Bernal's golden year and we thought were witnessing the new cycling phenom, but alas Tadej was looming over the horizon. The only real mistake, as I see it, Jumbo made in the 2020 Tour was to not take Pogacar out definitively after he made a rooky mistake getting caught out in the wind. The more I think about it, however, Tadej then immediately responded with a by now trademark imperious show of force, making up most of the time he previous lost, was simply irresistibile and neither Primoz or JV was at the time capable of stopping him.

 

[gregrowlerson]

This is a comparison not worth making. Indurain had the natural skills and was seriously ahead in the arms race that was Dr. Michelle Ferrari. That edge was compelling enough that another rider spent a fortune consulting with the Doctor and showed success that was, by local and regional assessment of his skills; way off the charts. Indurain was an rare talent with a cheating NASCAR crew. Roglic is raw talent in an era of very, very refined training. He does what he does.
I hadn't appreciated the JV straddle on several horses as much as this Tour. I would absolutely love a pure commitment to Primoz but he probably needs to earn it, AGAIN, tomorrow.

It was more to say how off I thought the Heras comparison was. Both won multiple Vuelta's, but Roberto raced it as his major target, whereas Primoz won it almost as an afterthought, having already achieved so much throughout the rest of the season. I doubt that Heras would ever dream of top 10 in an Olympic time trial either, let alone gold.

 

[frisenfruitig]

This is a comparison not worth making. Indurain had the natural skills and was seriously ahead in the arms race that was Dr. Michelle Ferrari. That edge was compelling enough that another rider spent a fortune consulting with the Doctor and showed success that was, by local and regional assessment of his skills; way off the charts. Indurain was an rare talent with a cheating NASCAR crew. Roglic is raw talent in an era of very, very refined training. He does what he does.
I hadn't appreciated the JV straddle on several horses as much as this Tour. I would absolutely love a pure commitment to Primoz but he probably needs to earn it, AGAIN, tomorrow.

Why would you want "pure commitment" to Primoz, how boring is that? Sacrifice multiple possible stage wins to come second after Pogacar? Perhaps if you can't win a GT without having an entire team hold your hand for 3 weeks you don't deserve to win it.

At the end of the day it's still up to Roglic himself to prove he can best Pogacar, you can have the best team in the world but if Pogacar attacks it's going to be his own legs that will have to do it.

 

[gregrowlerson]

The suggestion that Roglic should have rode the Tour in 2019 is always up for debate, but even if he had won it his detractors would now say, "But Pog wasn't there". Also, the landscape leading into 2019 was very different to what transpired in the race, with Froome probably an overwhelming favourite having podiumed 4 consecutive grand tours, but now fully rested again. Roglic impressed in 2018, but Dumoulin and Froome had come off podiums at the Giro, and still defeated him. Those guys would have been seen as a level above him. In addition to that, Roglic was still learning to time his peak, and in the 2019 Giro he came in a little too hot (though he crashed which also didn't help); who is to say that he wouldn't have made that same mistake at that Tour.

I don't like to compare Roglic to Evans, but his Tour dream is not over yet. Remember Cadel's chaotic Tours of 2009 and 2010? Ringing a bell with Primoz in 2021 and 2022. Roglic winning the Tour in 2023 is not too far fetched, and could see similarities to Evans in 2011. Perhaps Pogacar will race the Giro (like Contador did). Maybe Roglic could go to another team. Why not, eh?

 

[Red Rick]

Roglic was sick in the 2019 Giro.

I don't see how he does not clean up in the 2019 Tour. Bernal won it while being only really strong in like 2 mountain stages.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Roglic was sick in the 2019 Giro.

I don't see how he does not clean up in the 2019 Tour. Bernal won it while being only really strong in like 2 mountain stages.

Sometimes that's all it takes. Folk talking up Remco to win a GT, if the GT has massive ITT kms then he could do great in those and hang on for dear life when the road goes uphill. Don't have to be the best on all terrains but like Pog, it does help.

 

[Valv.Piti]

2019 was a weird race because of the cancellations and Bernal was flying going into them. No way of telling if Roglic could have won that race.

Anyways, Tour is the Tour will always be very simple. You guys love to complain about Lotto/Wout all day, but all you need to do is stay upright and be better in the mountains. Its very simple, and Pogacar is extremely good at it despite having a way worse team.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Sometimes that's all it takes. Folk talking up Remco to win a GT, if the GT has massive ITT kms then he could do great in those and hang on for dear life when the road goes uphill. Don't have to be the best on all terrains but like Pog, it does help.

It does when you have to go up against Pog though, he grabs any chance he can get to gain time whether it's uphill/TT or even on cobbles. I'd love to see it but Remco needs to up his level significantly to stand a chance. I suppose we'll see in the Vuelta if he can be ride on a high level for 3 weeks consistently. One off-day against Pog and it's over.

He's already up there with the best in terms of one day racing and TT'ing but still serious question marks as far as his climbing goes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

You are putting way too much thought into it. If there would be no Pogi this would likely be a hat-trick this year. Still he is the only one that beaten Pogi at GT. Now as for this year Tour edition. It for sure doesn't help. Being injured, more than 2 minutes behind after a couple of stages and first need to beat van Aert. Before tackling Pogi. Still if the injury won't stop him he will fight. Where does that take him we will see.

Last year the scenario was pretty much the same. Team leaving him in the bunch, crash, injury, long stage he still somehow managed and a bit of climbing next day he could not handle. Hence abandoning the race. Hopefully this year to turn things around and to get better and better as the stages go by.

 

[CyclistAbi]

This is where we are at after stage 6:

28

P. ROGLIČ JUMBO

JUMBO- VISMA

20h 47' 11''

+ 00h 02' 27''

Lets see if this can get improved a bit today. It's a crucial stage that will determine on how to proceed.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In regards to his team. I feel it's safe to say they often take a piss.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don't understand, though, how exactly Jumbo squandered Roglic's chances at winning the Tour over the last 4 years? In 2018-19 he was just not ready to beat Thomas-Bernal. In 2020 he got bettered on the last day by the greatest talent we have ever seen . Whereas last year he crashed badly and eventually pulled out, which wasn't Jumbo's fault, regardless of the fact that I agree with you they overextend themselves (like all this week with Wout and especially in this last stage - what was he doing? And what were they thinking?) to the point of hubris. In reality, however, Roglic had his chance in 2020, but alas failed to come through with the goods in spectacular fashion. And I respect the guy immensely

Not ready to beat Bernal? Bulls###. 2019 Tour almost had Pinot as a Tour winner. Roglic with a good prep (not overracing) would destroy that field. Why people still think Bernal is a first tier gc rider? Quintana, for example, never was a tour winner but he show more capacity to win the Tour than Bernal (when basically stars aligned).

 

[Red Rick]

Sometimes that's all it takes. Folk talking up Remco to win a GT, if the GT has massive ITT kms then he could do great in those and hang on for dear life when the road goes uphill. Don't have to be the best on all terrains but like Pog, it does help.

Yeah that one day that locks up the GC is probably Roglic putting 2 minutes into Bernal in the ITT. Iseran nor Galibier were that extreme, I'd back Rog to be able to follow both times.

 

[Rackham]

This is where we are at after stage 6:

28

P. ROGLIČ JUMBO

JUMBO- VISMA

20h 47' 11''

+ 00h 02' 27''

Lets see if this can get improved a bit today. It's a crucial stage that will determine on how to proceed.

Riding injured in a return to the scene of his worst climbing memory of his career (La Planche)? What could possibly go wrong.

I have a bad feeling about today. It's often said (in fact Jalabert always repeats this again & again) a crash is always felt more 48 hours later & there's nowhere to hide on climbs. It's like last year: Roglic did an okayish ITT all things considered after his crash (despite the mummification), but as soon as the climbing started it was all over.

I'd be amazed if he's close to Pog & the rest (Vlasov etc.) on the final climb.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Rackham

It's Rogla. He has a certain quality about this things.

But i do agree. This stage will determine if it's all over or not. In regards to this Tour edition.

 

[Red Rick]

Riding injured in a return to the scene of his worst climbing memory of his career (La Planche)? What could possibly go wrong.

I have a bad feeling about today. It's often said (in fact Jalabert always repeats this again & again) a crash is always felt more 48 hours later & there's nowhere to hide on climbs. It's like last year: Roglic did an okayish ITT all things considered after his crash (despite the mummification), but as soon as the climbing started it was all over.

I'd be amazed if he's close to Pog & the rest (Vlasov etc.) on the final climb.

I see it as a positive sign he tried to sprint yesterday. And the whole runin did not favor Rog. He literally gets squeezed everywhere by everyone. I'm pretty sure everyone also just rolls out a red carpet for Pogacar any time he wants a position.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Schachmann for example is angry each time Rogla wants to go ahead.