Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rob5091]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...allenge-on-bora-hansgrohe-debut-at-paris-nice

"It was my first race and obviously I need race rhythm," he says. "From now on, I think it's a good place to build on."

"For sure you can say that I came to Paris-Nice with a mindset to win, otherwise I don't come but we didn't succeed. The second part was to make a good block of intensity and I got that," Roglic concludes. "I stayed happy, I finished in one piece, it's a big mark that's done and it's in the legs."

BORA - hansgrohe's sports director, Patxi Vila -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...z-roglics-quiet-conclusion-to-paris-nice-2024

Whilst Vlasov took third on the stage, rising to 5th in the general classification, Roglic was absent from the head of the race in the finale, eventually finishing 10th overall. “With Roglic we still had someone as a backup . However, he didn't have his best days this week. We wanted to reach the final podium today, but in the end Vlasov was too tired. He did show how good he was," Vila assesses.

"Roglic did that too, but today he made a lot of tactical mistakes. That cost him a lot of time. He had it in him to be at the front,” Vila concludes. “We will ultimately go home with a fifth place in the final classification and a stage victory. That's good, but not what we expected.”

"Tactical mistakes" and "not what we expected". I think the weather played a large part and Roglic's history of crashes meant it was safety first. No way is this near Roglic's top form.

 

[shadowrider]

Sean Kelly imagines a lot of stuff during the races he commentates. It doesn't make it true.

Because Kelly is not an expert ? Not being one of the best sprinters, allrounders, specialists of small stageraces for many years ?
Roglic being clearly defeated only had a little to do with cold, one kg overweight, coming from altitude. But the more with not being able to support the race, take initiative, have to attack himself, have to close gaps himself...... this all without a superteam (ex-Jumbo) doing all the work. During the stage and during the last climbs.

 

[shadowrider]

Rog had literally been back to the car to put on extra clothes 30 minutes earlier, i.e. which made his upper body look bulkier. It's not rocket science. I mean a lot of commentary errors happen on Eurosport due to inattention from the commentary team.

The conditions were the same for all riders. Roglic is used to cold. He is very experienced. No excuses at all. And Kelly, the seven times winner of P-N (in sun, rain and cold), topsprinter, winning a lot of stages, pointsjerseys, classics... Not an expert ? Come on !

 

[tobydawq]

The conditions were the same for all riders. Roglic is used to cold. He is very experienced. No excuses at all. And Kelly, the seven times winner of P-N (in sun, rain and cold), topsprinter, winning a lot of stages, pointsjerseys, classics... Not an expert ? Come on !

Lol, Kelly's prowess as a rider doesn't automatically translate into expert status 40 years later.

Just listen to Bernard Hinault or Roger De Vlaeminck (I'm not saying Kelly is that bad by the way, I rarely listen to the English commentary).

 

[bNator]

The conditions were the same for all riders. Roglic is used to cold. He is very experienced. No excuses at all. And Kelly, the seven times winner of P-N (in sun, rain and cold), topsprinter, winning a lot of stages, pointsjerseys, classics... Not an expert ? Come on !

Not that I'm taking your writing seriously as you have proven yourself to be nothing but a troll many times in the past but still, here it is: Assuming one's body "is used to cold" because they were a skijumper or come from cold places is just as incorrect as is assuming Carapaz is a better climber than Vingegaard, because he lives at higher altitude and has a lot more mountains where he comes from than Vinge who can ride up to whopping 170m of altitude.

I'm not saying cold explains his performance (his team director is saying that) but claiming he "is used to cold" is not evident at all.

 

[Rackham]

Everyone knows Rog hates cold & wet conditions. There are exceptions (Lagos de Covadonga, although it was mild that day), but they're not the rule. It's entirely disingenuous to use his past in winter sports as some sort of gauge for his cold resistance when we have years of accumulated data on the road in pro-cycling which demonstrates a certain aversion to bad weather conditions.

In that respect yesterday's stage looks similar to the rain jacket incident on Formigal in the 2020 Vuelta tbh. People were scratching their heads wondering whether he was cooked back then as well.

 

[Gargamel35]

There is really no story here. I don't know what trolls are actually arguing about here.
New team, he looks lost out there following yellow guys instead of green. They need more time together.
He came here undercooked, preparing for TdF.
They had a really bad TTT (Roglič actually had a good individual one) and lost huge time so there was really no more motivation to push forward in next stages.
Bad weather kills Roglič most of the times.
He froze in the last stage and called it a day not even trying.

Good points: he didn't crash.

 

[theyoungest]

Because Kelly is not an expert ? Not being one of the best sprinters, allrounders, specialists of small stageraces for many years ?
Roglic being clearly defeated only had a little to do with cold, one kg overweight, coming from altitude. But the more with not being able to support the race, take initiative, have to attack himself, have to close gaps himself...... this all without a superteam (ex-Jumbo) doing all the work. During the stage and during the last climbs.

This is nonsense, and highly influenced by the general perception in Belgium about Roglic. Belgian media has really had it out for him ever since Van Aert joined his team, and now with Evenepoel regularly facing him it's become even worse. Roglic is a smart rider, who doesn't ride when he doesn't have to. Because Evenepoel is not, Roglic has become the scapegoat for his many tactical mistakes, but of course there's only one guy to blame: Evenepoel himself.

This week Roglic just didn't have the legs. He's perfectly capable of reading a race and taking initative when he has to, but not without the legs.

 

[bNator]

There is really no story here. I don't know what trolls are actually arguing about here.
New team, he looks lost out there following yellow guys instead of green. They need more time together.
He came here undercooked, preparing for TdF.
They had a really bad TTT (Roglič actually had a good individual one) and lost huge time so there was really no more motivation to push forward in next stages.
Bad weather kills Roglič most of the times.
He froze in the last stage and called it a day not even trying.

Good points: he didn't crash.

What trolls want is to filter out the possible explanations so that only those remain, that are supposedly embarrassing Roglic or diminishing his previous achievements. Any explanation which does not categorise into either of the 2 mentioned categories is deemed an excuse.

For instance, if you say Rogla is getting old - that's not an explanation but an excuse because it's only slightly embarrassing. Etc.

 

[Blanco]

A Slovenian and ex-ski-jumper not used to cold or not able to manage cold ? Come on.
It is normal that slightly stronger build all-rounders such as Jorgensen and Evenepoel may have a small advantage in the cold. On the other hand skeletar Vingegaard did again perform at the highest level in the cold and rainy Tirreno.
Still, cold and rain must have had an influence coming from altitude and sunny conditions. But Roglic losing 4 minutes in one stage ? Not being protected by the enormous Jumbo-team anymore, and forced to attack (and fail) once or twice himself (instead of wheelsucking, what he did most of the time, even in this P-N). So Roglic is what he has always been. A pace climber as long as he is in the wheels. In the last km or in the sprint uphill, jumping from the wheel of the opponents or teammates to occasionally win.

He was always able to camouflage his lack of substance (at the highest level) with the support of his superior team.
Which is no longer possible at Bora. The question is also whether Roglic will go to the Tour as leader or shadow leader ? I think Vlasov is the better of the two (at this moment).

Yeah, he occasionally did it 80 times...

 

[shadowrider]

Not that I'm taking your writing seriously as you have proven yourself to be nothing but a troll many times in the past but still, here it is: Assuming one's body "is used to cold" because they were a skijumper or come from cold places is just as incorrect as is assuming Carapaz is a better climber than Vingegaard, because he lives at higher altitude and has a lot more mountains where he comes from than Vinge who can ride up to whopping 170m of altitude.

I'm not saying cold explains his performance (his team director is saying that) but claiming he "is used to cold" is not evident at all.

Look, it's just one aspect. But you can't deny that a sporter used to train as a young sporter in winter conditions (as a skijumper and crosscountryskiing as well) at the very least is not disadvantaged compared to riders who grew up in more sunny, warm and dry environments. Deny this is going in the direction of being a troll yourself. For my part, I always use strong arguments in the discussions. Something trollers (like you?) just don't do.

I have often noticed that some people label others as trolls when they can no longer defend themselves with content and arguments.

 

[Netserk]

Irun will already see temperatures above 20 degrees this week. It will be a different story.

 

[theyoungest]

Look, it's just one aspect. But you can't deny that a sporter used to train as a young sporter in winter conditions (as a skijumper and crosscountryskiing as well) at the very least is not disadvantaged compared to riders who grew up in more sunny, warm and dry environments. Deny this is going in the direction of being a troll yourself. For my part, I always use strong arguments in the discussions. Something trollers (like you?) just don't do.

I have often noticed that some people label others as trolls when they can no longer defend themselves with content and arguments.

With the caveat that I've never done ski jumping, I'm pretty sure that's not as cold as riding 4 or 5 hours through the rain in March.

 

[Gargamel35]

With the caveat that I've never done ski jumping, I'm pretty sure that's not as cold as riding 4 or 5 hours through the rain in March.

Ski jumping have nothing with cold. They spend outside very very little time compared to other ski sports.
It's a stupid narrative anyway. Roglič is just old. Older people are usually feeling cold more. Just ask your granny.

 

[shadowrider]

This is nonsense, and highly influenced by the general perception in Belgium about Roglic. Belgian media has really had it out for him ever since Van Aert joined his team, and now with Evenepoel regularly facing him it's become even worse. Roglic is a smart rider, who doesn't ride when he doesn't have to. Because Evenepoel is not, Roglic has become the scapegoat for his many tactical mistakes, but of course there's only one guy to blame: Evenepoel himself.

This week Roglic just didn't have the legs. He's perfectly capable of reading a race and taking initative when he has to, but not without the legs.

As usual. Roglic, when defeated, hasn't the legs, isn't in form, still suffers from a crash (recently but also weeks/months ago), suffers from cold etc. etc. Conversely, if he wins, those circumstances/excuses should not be used by the losing opponents or neutral analysts. We had clear examples in the Vuelta 22 and the Giro 23. In the Vuelta 22, some Roglic-fans already started to laugh and ridiculise the opponents after Roglic won an uphill sprint in the first days of the Vuelta. Later, he was twice clearly beaten by Evenepoel. Before Evenepoel had a few minor days as a result of a double crash. Roglic could take some time back but was also beaten once by the very young Ayuso. So, the moment Roglic crashed out, Evenepoel was still comfortable in the lead. As we could see the last days of the Vuelta, Evenepoel was very strong those last days. No way Roglic could have taken back a minute.
At the start of the Giro 23 Roglic was destroyed by Evenepoel in the TT. Later, Evenepoel went into trouble, as it later turned out due to a Covid infection. He had to give up while he was still in the lead. All of this was hardly taken into account by the Roglic fans. Afterwards, Roglic had the greatest difficulty not losing too much time on the old, worn-out Thomas. Ultimately, he needed a uphill time trial to just jump into the lead on the penultimate day. In those circumstances he could never have won against Evenepoel.
This time, Roglic did the same as usual. Sitting in the wheels. Therefore probably forced Evenepoel to make a few wrong tactical choices, leading to a loss. For the rest, he never gave the impression that he could beat the UAE riders, Jorgenson and Evenepoel. During the final stage, Vlasow who was in the leading trio didn't ride..... because Roglic was behind. Roglic didn't ride in the chasing group.... because Vlasov was "in the lead". Shameful. Fortunately, he was subsequently destroyed.
I will repeat it again. Without a superteam as Jumbo (the actual Vismateam) and still wheelsucking, Roglic has only 90 % of his (winning)capacity anymore. Also never been used to take initiative or to make up for a deficit before the final km.

 

[shadowrider]

A Slovenian and ex-ski-jumper not used to cold or not able to manage cold ? Come on.
It is normal that slightly stronger build all-rounders such as Jorgensen and Evenepoel may have a small advantage in the cold. On the other hand skeletar Vingegaard did again perform at the highest level in the cold and rainy Tirreno.
Still, cold and rain must have had an influence coming from altitude and sunny conditions. But Roglic losing 4 minutes in one stage ? Not being protected by the enormous Jumbo-team anymore, and forced to attack (and fail) once or twice himself (instead of wheelsucking, what he did most of the time, even in this P-N). So Roglic is what he has always been. A pace climber as long as he is in the wheels. In the last km or in the sprint uphill, jumping from the wheel of the opponents or teammates to occasionally win.

He was always able to camouflage his lack of substance (at the highest level) with the support of his superior team.
Which is no longer possible at Bora. The question is also whether Roglic will go to the Tour as leader or shadow leader ? I think Vlasov is the better of the two (at this moment).

And Almeida did even worse. It is clear that he is on his way to becoming a leader at UAE . After he was not allowed to become the leader at Lefevere and was not allowed to earn as much as Evenepoel.

 

[bNator]

Look, it's just one aspect. But you can't deny that a sporter used to train as a young sporter in winter conditions (as a skijumper and crosscountryskiing as well) at the very least is not disadvantaged compared to riders who grew up in more sunny, warm and dry environments. Deny this is going in the direction of being a troll yourself. For my part, I always use strong arguments in the discussions. Something trollers (like you?) just don't do.

I have often noticed that some people label others as trolls when they can no longer defend themselves with content and arguments.

You have a feeling I can't defend myself with arguments? Haha, that's a good one...

Noone is talking about being disadvantaged. Cold and rain is part of the game and if you can't deal with that, it's your loss. Same goes for heat. The only reason why stating cold/rain could be treated as an excuse (as opposed to explanation) is that it inherently assumes once those reasons are out of the way, he'll be back to his old self. I don't think it's an excuse though - it's just an optimistic explanation.

Now about being a troll. The very definition of a web forum troll is someone who does not state his honest opinions but states controversial stuff with only one goal - to provoke and draw attention to oneself. Now if we apply that definition and examine your posts, here's where conclusions can be drawn:

"So Roglic is what he has always been. A pace climber as long as he is in the wheels. In the last km or in the sprint uphill, jumping from the wheel of the opponents or teammates to occasionally win."

This is your quote. While not impossible this is your honest opinion, we have to conclude it seems far more likely you are just trying to provoke. The only other explanation is you're not actually watching enough cycling to know Roglic is the GC rider with highest number of wins in pro cycling right now, his victory count very close to that of Remco and Vingegaard combined.

 

[shadowrider]

With the caveat that I've never done ski jumping, I'm pretty sure that's not as cold as riding 4 or 5 hours through the rain in March.

Of course not. But the other riders (many of which are less accustomed to winter conditions) are also riding 4 or 5 hours through the rain in March. With better results. Again, the rain and cold are only minor reasons why Roglic didn't perform. The main reasons I did explain before.

 

[acm]

A Slovenian and ex-ski-jumper not used to cold or not able to manage cold ? Come on.
It is normal that slightly stronger build all-rounders such as Jorgensen and Evenepoel may have a small advantage in the cold. On the other hand skeletar Vingegaard did again perform at the highest level in the cold and rainy Tirreno.
Still, cold and rain must have had an influence coming from altitude and sunny conditions. But Roglic losing 4 minutes in one stage ? Not being protected by the enormous Jumbo-team anymore, and forced to attack (and fail) once or twice himself (instead of wheelsucking, what he did most of the time, even in this P-N). So Roglic is what he has always been. A pace climber as long as he is in the wheels. In the last km or in the sprint uphill, jumping from the wheel of the opponents or teammates to occasionally win.

He was always able to camouflage his lack of substance (at the highest level) with the support of his superior team.
Which is no longer possible at Bora. The question is also whether Roglic will go to the Tour as leader or shadow leader ? I think Vlasov is the better of the two (at this moment).

If you don't understand the difference between ski jumping or riding a bike in the cold, I can't help you. Everything else is just BS.

 

[shadowrider]

[content removed]

So why can't you discuss as an adult, with arguments ? Without portraying others as trolls the moment you can't react anymore. Your behaviour is a perfect example of "projection", welknown in psychology/psychiatry. A tactic of a narcist.

So, again. With content and arguments. Roglic isn't the same rider anymore now he has lost the enormous support of his former team. He was never used to ride in a offensive manner against strong opponents. But Roglic is still a talented rider. Who will win (a stage) a few more times. The same, but on a lower scale, with Almeida. But please, take off your blinders and have a neutral discussion.

 

[shadowrider]

[content deleted]

What a fantastic and contentless reaction again. Your inability to have a real discussion is eye-sore.

 

[SHAD0W93]

[content deleted]

Needs a healthy dose of Roglstomp.

 

[shadowrider]

If you don't understand the difference between ski jumping or riding a bike in the cold, I can't help you. Everything else is just BS.

But the other riders didn't practiced skijumping nor crosscountryskiing either. It is clear that such a background gives a (slight) advantage compared to riders who mainly grew up in summer and dry conditions. Not understanding that difference is worrying and says a lot about your knowledge of top sport.

In addition, it is about the difference in talent, skills (one is better than the other in a certain discipline).
But with Roglic, mainly in changing teams, first of all moving to a much weaker team. Jorgenson had to change teams aswell. but to a stronger (the strongest ?) team. He is therefore (a lot) better than last season. With Roglic it is just the opposite. But then putting it almost entirely on the cold is laughable

 

[johnymax]

So why can't you discuss as an adult, with arguments ? Without portraying others as trolls the moment you can't react anymore. Your behaviour is a perfect example of "projection", welknown in psychology/psychiatry. A tactic of a narcist.

So, again. With content and arguments. Roglic isn't the same rider anymore now he has lost the enormous support of his former team. He was never used to ride in a offensive manner against strong opponents. But Roglic is still a talented rider. Who will win (a stage) a few more times. The same, but on a lower scale, with Almeida. But please, take off your blinders and have a neutral discussion.

If it stays like this, sure, your assumption will be correct to a certain extent. But it's to early to tell. It's his first race in a new team in conditions he doesn't like. Let's wait a couple of months.

 

[Rackham]

But the other riders didn't practiced skijumping nor crosscountryskiing either. It is clear that such a background gives a (slight) advantage compared to riders who mainly grew up in summer and dry conditions. Not understanding that difference is worrying and says a lot about your knowledge of top sport.

In addition, it is about the difference in talent, skills (one is better than the other in a certain discipline).
But with Roglic, mainly in changing teams, first of all moving to a much weaker team. Jorgenson had to change teams aswell. but to a stronger (the strongest ?) team. He is therefore (a lot) better than last season. With Roglic it is just the opposite. But then putting it almost entirely on the cold is laughable

I'm not even going to go over your 'points' & reply because it's really just not worth the hassle.

The bigger issue here is why are you even in such an anxious state to begin with regarding a rider you seemingly don't like.

I mean, why do you care so you're typing post after post which no one will read? In 3 weeks it's Itzulia. We'll know more then. And if the worst comes to pass & he's lost a few % which separates him from the rest & he comes a mundane rider this season, he'll still be a 4x GT winner with 80 career wins.