Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[shadowrider]

[content deleted]

What a fantastic and contentless reaction again. Your inability to have a real discussion is eye-sore.

 

[SHAD0W93]

[content deleted]

Needs a healthy dose of Roglstomp.

 

[shadowrider]

If you don't understand the difference between ski jumping or riding a bike in the cold, I can't help you. Everything else is just BS.

But the other riders didn't practiced skijumping nor crosscountryskiing either. It is clear that such a background gives a (slight) advantage compared to riders who mainly grew up in summer and dry conditions. Not understanding that difference is worrying and says a lot about your knowledge of top sport.

In addition, it is about the difference in talent, skills (one is better than the other in a certain discipline).
But with Roglic, mainly in changing teams, first of all moving to a much weaker team. Jorgenson had to change teams aswell. but to a stronger (the strongest ?) team. He is therefore (a lot) better than last season. With Roglic it is just the opposite. But then putting it almost entirely on the cold is laughable

 

[johnymax]

So why can't you discuss as an adult, with arguments ? Without portraying others as trolls the moment you can't react anymore. Your behaviour is a perfect example of "projection", welknown in psychology/psychiatry. A tactic of a narcist.

So, again. With content and arguments. Roglic isn't the same rider anymore now he has lost the enormous support of his former team. He was never used to ride in a offensive manner against strong opponents. But Roglic is still a talented rider. Who will win (a stage) a few more times. The same, but on a lower scale, with Almeida. But please, take off your blinders and have a neutral discussion.

If it stays like this, sure, your assumption will be correct to a certain extent. But it's to early to tell. It's his first race in a new team in conditions he doesn't like. Let's wait a couple of months.

 

[Rackham]

But the other riders didn't practiced skijumping nor crosscountryskiing either. It is clear that such a background gives a (slight) advantage compared to riders who mainly grew up in summer and dry conditions. Not understanding that difference is worrying and says a lot about your knowledge of top sport.

In addition, it is about the difference in talent, skills (one is better than the other in a certain discipline).
But with Roglic, mainly in changing teams, first of all moving to a much weaker team. Jorgenson had to change teams aswell. but to a stronger (the strongest ?) team. He is therefore (a lot) better than last season. With Roglic it is just the opposite. But then putting it almost entirely on the cold is laughable

I'm not even going to go over your 'points' & reply because it's really just not worth the hassle.

The bigger issue here is why are you even in such an anxious state to begin with regarding a rider you seemingly don't like.

I mean, why do you care so you're typing post after post which no one will read? In 3 weeks it's Itzulia. We'll know more then. And if the worst comes to pass & he's lost a few % which separates him from the rest & he comes a mundane rider this season, he'll still be a 4x GT winner with 80 career wins.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

As usual. Roglic, when defeated, hasn't the legs, isn't in form, still suffers from a crash (recently but also weeks/months ago), suffers from cold etc. etc. Conversely, if he wins, those circumstances/excuses should not be used by the losing opponents or neutral analysts. We had clear examples in the Vuelta 22 and the Giro 23. In the Vuelta 22, some Roglic-fans already started to laugh and ridiculise the opponents after Roglic won an uphill sprint in the first days of the Vuelta. Later, he was twice clearly beaten by Evenepoel. Before Evenepoel had a few minor days as a result of a double crash. Roglic could take some time back but was also beaten once by the very young Ayuso. So, the moment Roglic crashed out, Evenepoel was still comfortable in the lead. As we could see the last days of the Vuelta, Evenepoel was very strong those last days. No way Roglic could have taken back a minute.
At the start of the Giro 23 Roglic was destroyed by Evenepoel in the TT. Later, Evenepoel went into trouble, as it later turned out due to a Covid infection. He had to give up while he was still in the lead. All of this was hardly taken into account by the Roglic fans. Afterwards, Roglic had the greatest difficulty not losing too much time on the old, worn-out Thomas. Ultimately, he needed a uphill time trial to just jump into the lead on the penultimate day. In those circumstances he could never have won against Evenepoel.
This time, Roglic did the same as usual. Sitting in the wheels. Therefore probably forced Evenepoel to make a few wrong tactical choices, leading to a loss. For the rest, he never gave the impression that he could beat the UAE riders, Jorgenson and Evenepoel. During the final stage, Vlasow who was in the leading trio didn't ride..... because Roglic was behind. Roglic didn't ride in the chasing group.... because Vlasov was "in the lead". Shameful. Fortunately, he was subsequently destroyed.
I will repeat it again. Without a superteam as Jumbo (the actual Vismateam) and still wheelsucking, Roglic has only 90 % of his (winning)capacity anymore. Also never been used to take initiative or to make up for a deficit before the final km.

Hilarious.

Always excuses if Roglic doesn't win, you accuse, then go on and look for excuses for Remco defeats. Crashes! Covid! Roglic forcing Remco into mistakes. You might want to rethink part of your "strong arguments". At least parts. But of course if you mean strong as in strongly alcoholized, then all is ok with your strong arguments.

 

[ftm]

(long time lurker, used to be active a long time ago but lost interest during Sky era. I had to create a new account because I need to rant… bear with me)

So I watched Paris-Nice and I don’t even know what to think anymore.

It irks me that there is a fan war that inundates social media but it really goes nowhere as both camps (“he’s soooo washed and was always a shitty rider who only won because of his superior team” VS “the sun will shine tomorrow, he just needs time, and if it doesn’t work for him it’s ok… the only thing that’s matters is his happiness”) are just seeing this situation in b/w terms and not contributing to the discussion in a meaningful way. We can see with our own eyes that something is wrong, claiming that he was always like this but it was swept under the rug as he was handed all his victories by his team is such a laughable take that I won’t bother, but the opposite is not helping either, those fans that reject any attempt at critical thinking by stating that it doesn’t matter if he’s essentially transformed into a different person, as long as he’s smiling and he says he will keep fighting… they are also getting on my nerves. And I am not even active on social media but they are all over the place

So I need some to hear some reasonable takes from my fellow Rogla fans here because nothing makes sense.

How come a guy that survived and won a though, wet, cold, Giro with an injury that wasn’t trivial and a team that wasn’t the best (and he was not used to riding with part of that team), then moved to an admittedly decent GC team, that had already won a Giro (so used to cold/wet), kept his coach so they could replicate most if not all the conditions that worked for him.. and almost froze to death in a race he’s participated before and managed more or less OK? This doesn’t make any sense, are Bora that shitty or is it something else?

The guy has been a professional cyclist for 10 years, he’s raced in all sorts of weather, are you telling me he doesn’t know he isn’t great in the cold and only managed to do well in those races because his old team knew how to interpret is body signals without him even realising and now he doesn’t know how to navigate the cold and/or tell his new team this is an issue?
And even if this was the case, WTF is his coach doing then? Shouldn’t he had all the data, know all his weaknesses and warn the team? I can understand riders might not be smart or aware of many things because they get paid to ride a bicycle from A to B as fast as they can, but they have tons of professionals around them whose job is to know all this, take notes, keep track of the data and analyse it etc. What was the point of keeping the *** coach then?

I’m having a hard time believing that after all the shitty situations he’s been in, and all the lessons learned, they would all be so amateurish and fail in such a basic way. I can’t believe it’s only this.

And don’t get me started on the whole “well he has to spend way more energy because the team is weak/they don’t know him/he has to get used to the materials”. Again, he’s been in worse situations before, with a weak team and shitty conditions, mostly on his own, in tough races with decent rivals, and he’s managed way better than he did this week. I can understand a dip in form, I can understand age is a factor and he might be in the beginning of his decline, but he’s a complete different rider than he was in October when he fought his way to an almost impossible podium, in the type of race he struggles the most with, with poor team support. It’s been 5 months, not 5 *** years, he shouldn’t be struggling to keep up with *** Lidl domestiques or whatever riders kept dropping him yesterday.

Even if he had finished 3m down but had given the impression of having tried I could believe this is a process that takes time and he’s been taking it slowly to ensure all the bases are covered, with no pressure, but he looked lost, as if this was his first race ever, as if he didn’t know what to do and was on his own trying to survive. Bora are not such a disastrous team (as proven by their decent Tirreno), they ride on Specialized, one of their nutritionists was hired to give a seminar to VLAB, they have won a Giro and had decent results in other GTs in recent years… there is absolutely no reason why this change would be so disastrous and the latest interviews with their DS and boss absolutely prove this, they were surprised that things were so bad and, reading between the lines, don’t know the reason why, which is worrying.

So ignoring all the hot takes, do you honestly believe it’s just the new team, new everything and the cold? It makes sense that all these factors would play a role, but I wouldn’t expect such a huge impact (neither did they…), it’s just not possible that a rider that started getting big results from the get go in less than ideal circumstances (because his old team had to catch up with him) would move to a team that’s in a better position to support him than his old team was when he started, and yet he has regressed so badly that he’s even worse than he was in 2016?

/end of rant

Thanks for reading my wall of text, I’m disappointed because I’m a huge fan and I want him healthy and competitive for many years, and I’m also frustrated as this was shaping up to be a great year with an engaging battle for the TdF podium but now I feel pretty deflated after the first important stage races of the season. Did we curse the riders by getting too hyped?


tl;dr I don’t believe the cold weather and having to get used to everything new can explain such an abysmal performance that nobody expected. Make it make sense please

 

[Netserk]

I think the cold makes excellent sense. The conditions were really harsh day after day, and if you then have a rider who already doesn't thrive when it's cold and wet, and who is now sharp and thin from his training camp, you won't see him get his power through after freezing on a descent.

His best days in the Giro were nothing like that.

I also believe that on the last day, when cold and bad and with nothing to ride for, he just parked it after Peille.

EDIT: Huh, the post above mine disappeared. It was a fine first post from a lurker.

 

[Carols]

The conditions were the same for all riders. Roglic is used to cold. He is very experienced. No excuses at all.

Yikes another troll, says the same thing 3 posts in a row. That's what ignore is for.

 

[RedheadDane]

This is a valid explanation.

There's also a precedent from two years ago where the opposite occurred in the final Paris-Nice stage in 2022 with changeable weather conditions: he overdressed & 'overheated' (he almost crashed as well whilst attempting to undress on a descent).

Yesterday it seems like a reverse scenario with similar consequences on his legs (underdressed & froze).

So, basically a case of "Not making that mistake (overdressing) again!", and then possibly ending up over-compencating by making the opposite mistake, and underdressing instead?

 

[ftm]

I think the cold makes excellent sense. The conditions were really harsh day after day, and if you then have a rider who already doesn't thrive when it's cold and wet, and who is now sharp and thin from his training camp, you won't see him get his power through after freezing on a descent.

His best days in the Giro were nothing like that.

I also believe that on the last day, when cold and bad and with nothing to ride for, he just parked it after Peille.

Sure, but my long rant was not about whether it makes sense that he'd be bad in the cold (we know he is) but whether he should be this terrible and the team wouldn't be able to notice and take action because it seemed they were still expecting him to fight for the podium on the last stage. He had been complaining about the cold since stage 4 and 4 stages later he literally froze, so the team ... ignored the signals? didn't know how to deal with the cold? thought he was exaggerating? expected it to simply get better by the power of a good pep talk in the bus?

That's why it doesn't make sense to me, maybe it's the way they communicate things, they are all talking to the press and I read contradictory statements, in fact they are kind of sending mixed signals: first race, it doesn't matter the result, etc. but when the situation starts getting bad they are disappointed but they will keep trying and still believe in fighting for the final victory, and when it all fails they don't know what's going on?

I didn't get a great first impression of Bora and I always thought they were a promising team that was going to become one of the best. Again, maybe it's been a chaotic week and emotions are running high but it all felt rushed and poorly prepared

 

[Netserk]

Sure, but my long rant was not about whether it makes sense that he'd be bad in the cold (we know he is) but whether he should be this terrible and the team wouldn't be able to notice and take action because it seemed they were still expecting him to fight for the podium on the last stage. He had been complaining about the cold since stage 4 and 4 stages later he literally froze, so the team ... ignored the signals? didn't know how to deal with the cold? thought he was exaggerating? expected it to simply get better by the power of a good pep talk in the bus?

That's why it doesn't make sense to me, maybe it's the way they communicate things, they are all talking to the press and I read contradictory statements, in fact they are kind of sending mixed signals: first race, it doesn't matter the result, etc. but when the situation starts getting bad they are disappointed but they will keep trying and still believe in fighting for the final victory, and when it all fails they don't know what's going on?

I didn't get a great first impression of Bora and I always thought they were a promising team that was going to become one of the best. Again, maybe it's been a chaotic week and emotions aer running high but they felt rushed and poorly prepared

The cars couldn't come up to the riders from Châteauneuf to the top of Peille.

 

[Rackham]

So, basically a case of "Not making that mistake (overdressing) again!", and then possibly ending up over-compencating by making the opposite mistake, and underdressing instead?

I believe so, yes. I think that's the tactical error Patxi Vila was referring to (& this is corroborated by Rolf Aldag's comment about Rog being frozen).

For what it's worth it was sunny at the stage start yesterday as well so I can totally see how that mistake (underdressing) could have happened.

 

[Netserk]

I believe so, yes. I think that's the tactical error Patxi Vila was referring to (& this is corroborated by Rolf Aldag's comment about Rog being frozen).

For what it's worth it was sunny at the stage start yesterday as well so I can totally see how that mistake (underdressing) could have happened.

Yes, it only started raining after the cars could no longer get up to the riders.

 

[ftm]

The cars couldn't come up to the riders from Châteauneuf to the top of Peille.

Yeah, I read that. What I don't know if they were the only team with this problem because I haven't heard of other riders complaining.

I believe so, yes. I think that's the tactical error Patxi Vila was referring to (& this is corroborated by Rolf Aldag's comment about Rog being frozen).

For what it's worth it was sunny at the stage start yesterday as well so I can totally see how that mistake (underdressing) could have happened.

But what I don't understand is why tf was Vila talking about disappointment if they knew their riders were freezing and they couldn't get to them on time. Shouldn't he be explaining that they got unlucky or didn't plan as well as they should (Vlasov also was complaining about the cold so it wasn't Rog's mistake only) and they did the best they could? He sounded as if it was the riders fault tbh, in fact I read that interview with Denk and he didn't sound too pleased about the team performance (I read it as the riders but I might be reading too much into it)

All in all looks and sounds to chaotic for my taste atm. I know it's his first race and we shouldn't expect a lot but compared to Tirreno and other races Bora have done this season, I struggle to understand how it ended up in such a mess.

 

[zlev11]

As usual. Roglic, when defeated, hasn't the legs, isn't in form, still suffers from a crash (recently but also weeks/months ago), suffers from cold etc. etc. Conversely, if he wins, those circumstances/excuses should not be used by the losing opponents or neutral analysts. We had clear examples in the Vuelta 22 and the Giro 23. In the Vuelta 22, some Roglic-fans already started to laugh and ridiculise the opponents after Roglic won an uphill sprint in the first days of the Vuelta. Later, he was twice clearly beaten by Evenepoel. Before Evenepoel had a few minor days as a result of a double crash. Roglic could take some time back but was also beaten once by the very young Ayuso. So, the moment Roglic crashed out, Evenepoel was still comfortable in the lead. As we could see the last days of the Vuelta, Evenepoel was very strong those last days. No way Roglic could have taken back a minute.
At the start of the Giro 23 Roglic was destroyed by Evenepoel in the TT. Later, Evenepoel went into trouble, as it later turned out due to a Covid infection. He had to give up while he was still in the lead. All of this was hardly taken into account by the Roglic fans. Afterwards, Roglic had the greatest difficulty not losing too much time on the old, worn-out Thomas. Ultimately, he needed a uphill time trial to just jump into the lead on the penultimate day. In those circumstances he could never have won against Evenepoel.
This time, Roglic did the same as usual. Sitting in the wheels. Therefore probably forced Evenepoel to make a few wrong tactical choices, leading to a loss. For the rest, he never gave the impression that he could beat the UAE riders, Jorgenson and Evenepoel. During the final stage, Vlasow who was in the leading trio didn't ride..... because Roglic was behind. Roglic didn't ride in the chasing group.... because Vlasov was "in the lead". Shameful. Fortunately, he was subsequently destroyed.
I will repeat it again. Without a superteam as Jumbo (the actual Vismateam) and still wheelsucking, Roglic has only 90 % of his (winning)capacity anymore. Also never been used to take initiative or to make up for a deficit before the final km.

this is one of the funniest posts ive ever read on this forum. chapeau.

 

[bNator]

this is one of the funniest posts ive ever read on this forum. chapeau.

I only went on to read it after you pointed it out. It really is🤣

 

[acm]

Yeah, I read that. What I don't know if they were the only team with this problem because I haven't heard of other riders complaining.


But what I don't understand is why tf was Vila talking about disappointment if they knew their riders were freezing and they couldn't get to them on time. Shouldn't he be explaining that they got unlucky or didn't plan as well as they should (Vlasov also was complaining about the cold so it wasn't Rog's mistake only) and they did the best they could? He sounded as if it was the riders fault tbh, in fact I read that interview with Denk and he didn't sound too pleased about the team performance (I read it as the riders but I might be reading too much into it)

All in all looks and sounds to chaotic for my taste atm. I know it's his first race and we shouldn't expect a lot but compared to Tirreno and other races Bora have done this season, I struggle to understand how it ended up in such a mess.

Agree. I have a feeling that everything that could go wrong did go wrong this week.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Dear Roglic fans. It was his first race. First race for a new team. Stop overreacting. If his next races are not good, then maybe you can start to worry and detect a pattern. Though Bora is not Visma and he is indeed getting older, that doesn't what happened in PN is a sign he will no longer be competitive. The Vuelta was only a few months ago.

 

[bNator]

Dear Roglic fans. It was his first race. First race for a new team. Stop overreacting. If his next races are not good, then maybe you can start to worry and detect a pattern. Though Bora is not Visma and he is indeed getting older, that doesn't what happened in PN is a sign he will no longer be competitive. The Vuelta was only a few months ago.

I never thought it would come this far - to be consoled by a Remco fan😁

 

[saunaking]

Dear Roglic fans. It was his first race. First race for a new team. Stop overreacting. If his next races are not good, then maybe you can start to worry and detect a pattern. Though Bora is not Visma and he is indeed getting older, that doesn't what happened in PN is a sign he will no longer be competitive. The Vuelta was only a few months ago.

Yeah, chill. Sagan didn't exactly light it up at Tour des Alpes Maritimes when he moved to Total Energies.

 

[shadowrider]

Yikes another troll, says the same thing 3 posts in a row. That's what ignore is for.

You could reply with arguments..... as grown up do. Accusing someone who has an opinion (and defend that opinion with valid arguments) to be a troll is shamefull......proving yourself being a troll.

 

[Gargamel35]

Not being a fan of Roglic (as a human), I still respect him as an athlete. But there are two main reasons for his not outstanding performance. With the exception of the last day when he had a breakdown due to the cold, he did perform well. But not at his normal level. Because he had not the massive "Jumbo"-support he was used to. He had to attack himself or to react himself without two domestiques and/or a co-leader helping him. He can't use the "food-app" (in fact the medial preparation at night) anymore. I predicted this winter that Roglic would not reach the same level once he left Jumbo. The same would happen with Vingegaard leaving Visma or Pogacar leaving UAE.

You said that million times. You have no proof, except your flawed opinion. There was one race and his peak should be in july. Stop trolling and being a parrot.

 

[scribers]

Roglic cooked or taking the long arch this year. Seems risky what he’s doing. I can’t recall him ever doing this sort of approach. Tell me I’m wrong

 

[shadowrider]

You said that million times. You have no proof, except your flawed opinion. There was one race and his peak should be in july. Stop trolling and being a parrot.

So, again, in your perspective trolling is having an opinion supported with arguments. Your reaction without arguments wouldn't be trolling. I hope you realize that you are completely bogging yourself down.

So, again. I will react with arguments. Roglic came to P-N after an altitude trainingperiod. He should be good than. In the past, Roglic already did well for his first race or stagerace. One could accept Roglic not winning P-N after changing teams, material, co-operating with new teammates.... But ending on the 9th place at 5'33" !?
Roglic will certainly improve. To be at his best for the Tour. But dueling with Vingegaard and Pogacar ? No way. Fighting for a top five with Yates, Evenepoel, Ayuso etc.... ? Yes.