Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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This stage shows how bad the team really is. Their only objective for today is to be in the breakaway and they did not manage. And Haller, I mean why is this guy even on a bike. He has the body of a shot putter. At the team presentation he looked like he just came out of a biergarten after having a few too many sausage salads. He may be useful only if there is a belching competition....
 
First things first, I really feel bad for Roglic, but unfortunately him crashing out was not a suprise. Don't get me wrong some of his crashes as people stated on here were due to bad luck, but many of his crashes are his fault and when it happens so often it gets to a point where it's not an accident anymore. Ultimately he was too far back, if he was at the front of the peloton like Pogacar and Vingegaard, he would've avoided it.
Like I said I feel real bad for him and I hope he wins the Vuelta.
But, if everyone fighting to be at the front. Crashes occur too and people are getting angry.
 
Might be time to forget the Tour and win another Vuelta or Giro unless podiums mean more than winning other grand tours but I guess Bora were paying him the big dollars to win the Tour as they have already won the Giro. Next season will be interesting re Hindley and Roglic, whether Hindley will still be there and what grand tours they target. Roglic can still recover for this year's Vuelta and he will have fresher legs than most of the other GC riders. Hindley was sick in the first week but will probably try for a stage now. Bora collectively haven't looked good in this race so far.
 
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There is obviously one big not so positive outcome from what happened. Rogla targeting the Tour and not having a chance to show on the road, the results. This obviously is the biggest blow on personal level and for this sport and this race in general.

Beyond that i feel that we can be rather optimistic. Being his first season, or better half of the season, Rogla riding for Red Bull–BORA–hansgrohe. We went from Rogla not being in the mood, due to team forgetting in keeping him warm, to first prestigious ITT win, to first stage race win, to riding half of the Tour on where Rogla was up there, fighting with the best. First nine days of the race really being demanding, an all out racing across all terrains, still Rogla on the bullish trajectory. Such things should in my opinion not be taken for granted. In the end it is in my opinion good, that Rogla at least got such feedback.

Another thing we seen is UAE and Visma, as teams, they are playing with each other and the rest of the teams don't come remotely close. Here i feel that in the future seasons Rogla should get much better team support and although ATM only at beginning, he already is riding for a new super team. If riders of a calibre like Remco and/or Wout would to join in some future, that in my opinion wouldn't undermine Rogličes ambitions, instead it would likely only increase the level of progress in areas such as access to best materials, nutrition, tactics ... Once the team develops a new youngster into what they say to be new Max Verstappen of cycling. Then indeed other rides in the team will likely get sidetracked a bit. Said that realistically we are at minimum 3 to 5 years from that.

As for the crashes debates, people tend to forget easily, we have riders directly out of an ICU competing and basically every single rider from the top favourites already crashed this season. Some people not even paying attention to things like crashing alone or being crashed out. You quickly realize fans are really not the best metric in this regards. Riders just crash a whole lot.

We had long talks and determined injury prevention is something governing bodies are responsible for the most. For example most of the injuries Jonas, Remco and Rogla sustained in this season could have easily be prevented, with better safety apparel. Again, this is something for governing bodies to address properly, one positive side being, teams are now investing way too much money into riders and it's not economically viable any more, for riders being injured. Especially as apparel costing less then an average price of racing bike could prevent most of the injuries mentioned. I am sure that UCI will be pressured, by teams, into mandating the usage of such apparel in future races and the number of injuries will get substantially reduced as a result. Organisers, as i seen debate about that, in my opinion they won't take responsibility in the area of injuries prevention. And they are not all that good at crashes prevention either, likely due to not having much liability.

All in all Rogla, although not finishing, has again been a leader of a super team in formation at the Tour, messing with other favourites balls, legs and intelligence, successfully, now that in my opinion still warrants for a cautious smile.

So what is next. Two options at hand, to win a one day race event or yes, indeed, a GT could still be in the books. We'll see.
 
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Again the narrative of Roglic's bike handling and "being" too far away from the front of the peloton. History shows it doesn't matter. He was in the front, he fought to be in the front, he hid behind and still crashed due to circumstances.

TDF major crashes were not his fault.
No but i bet half the riders in the peloton would have avoided them, yesterday's for sure
 
There is obviously one big not so positive outcome from what happened. Rogla targeting the Tour and not having a chance to show on the road, the results. This obviously is the biggest blow on personal level and for this sport and this race in general.

Beyond that i feel that we can be rather optimistic. Being his first season, or better half of the season, Rogla riding for Red Bull–BORA–hansgrohe. We went from Rogla not being in the mood, due to team forgetting in keeping him warm, to first prestigious ITT win, to first stage race win, to riding half of the Tour on where Rogla was up there, fighting with the best. First nine days of the race really being demanding, an all out racing across all terrains, still Rogla on the bullish trajectory. Such things should in my opinion not be taken for granted. In the end it is in my opinion good, that Rogla at least got such feedback.

Another thing we seen is UAE and Visma, as teams, they are playing with each other and the rest of the teams don't come remotely close. Here i feel that in the future seasons Rogla should get much better team support and although ATM only at beginning, he already is riding for a new super team. If riders of a calibre like Remco and/or Wout would to join in some future, that in my opinion wouldn't undermine Rogličes ambitions, instead it would likely only increase the level of progress in areas such as access to best materials, nutrition, tactics ... Once the team develops a new youngster into what they say to be new Max Verstappen of cycling. Then indeed other rides in the team will likely get sidetracked a bit. Said that realistically we are at minimum 3 to 5 years from that.

As for the crashes debates, people tend to forget easily, we have riders directly out of an ICU competing and basically every single rider from the top favourites already crashed this season. Some people not even paying attention to things like crashing alone or being crashed out. You quickly realize fans are really not the best metric in this regards. Riders just crash a whole lot.

We had long talks and determined injury prevention is something governing bodies are responsible for the most. For example most of the injuries Jonas, Remco and Rogla sustained in this season could have easily be prevented, with better safety apparel. Again, this is something for governing bodies to address properly, one positive side being, teams are now investing way too much money into riders and it's not economically viable any more, for riders being injured. Especially as apparel costing less then an average price of racing bike could prevent most of the injuries mentioned. I am sure that UCI will be pressured, by teams, into mandating the usage of such apparel in future races and the number of injuries will get substantially reduced as a result. Organisers, as i seen debate about that, in my opinion they won't take responsibility in the area of injuries prevention. And they are not all that good at crashes prevention either, likely due to not having much liability.

All in all Rogla, although not finishing, has again been a leader of a super team in formation at the Tour, messing with other favourites balls, legs and intelligence, successfully, now that in my opinion still warrants for a cautious smile.

So what is next. Two options at hand, to win a one day race event or yes, indeed, a GT could still be in the books. We'll see.
Agree that he did show positiv things, in my book he would probably come out on top against Remco, as their levels are now. I'm just having a hard time seeing things work out for him in the tour, this year really was the weakest you would expect pogi and Jonas to be, but you never know.

Think I remember you talking about this "safety apparel" before and finding it very unrealistic.
 
Again the narrative of Roglic's bike handling and "being" too far away from the front of the peloton. History shows it doesn't matter. He was in the front, he fought to be in the front, he hid behind and still crashed due to circumstances.

TDF major crashes were not his fault.
Yes but unfortunately there are a lot of examples of him crashing where he was at fault, PN 2021, Vuelta 22, heck even on the decent yesterday.
I'm a Roglic fan but as I've said before, people aren't surprised by him crashing out..
 
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Roglic is 35 in October. He had a late start to the sport but a Tour win now is unlikely when his main adversaries are just hitting their peak years for grand tour riders. Evans won the Tour at 34 and he was the second oldest to do it. Firmin Lambot was 36 when he won in 1922. Never say never but Roglic would need a lot to go his way to win it now. Most good grand tour riders have peaked by the age of 32 or so and Evans only had one grand tour podium after he won the Tour in 2011. He probably has one more shot, two at the most.
 
Roglic is 35 in October. He had a late start to the sport but a Tour win now is unlikely when his main adversaries are just hitting their peak years for grand tour riders. Evans won the Tour at 34 and he was the second oldest to do it. Firmin Lambot was 36 when he won in 1922. Never say never but Roglic would need a lot to go his way to win it now. Most good grand tour riders have peaked by the age of 32 or so and Evans only had one grand tour podium after he won the Tour in 2011. He probably has one more shot, two at the most.

Still, Geraint Thomas was super strong in last year's Giro.

Modern sport also seems to favor longevity with its athletes more than in the past. I mean look at tennis, i.e. not just Djokovic but a guy like Struff who reached his career best level in his 30's.

We'll know more once the dust on this Tour has settled. Evidently the team isn't so great here (losing Vlasov pretty much sealed Rog's fate tbh considering he would have been very isolated in the mountains without him). There's also some Evenepoel to Red Bull transfer rumors flying around which we'll need to keep an eye on.

So who knows what the future holds. I have no particular 'hopes' either other than Rog finding his own peace & happiness, i.e. whether that's by coming back & smashing the Vuelta for number 4 or saying "f*ck it" & quitting the sport entirely because he's had enough. As a fan I'd obviously want him to return to his best & win big things but there's a form of selfishness to that which I can at least recognize. I mean the guy isn't immortal. He won't keep winning stuff just for our amusement forever.

And if this TdF has taught us anything it's that fairy-tales aren't universal. Winners get the fairy-tale, everyone else gets the disappointment.
 
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Not surprising that he withdrew, hopefully will recover quickly
12 stages against ETs is a perfect Vuelta preparation though, the whole Tour would be too much!

I hope someone (either Vingegaard or Pog or both) absolutely smashes the coming weekend & the last week, i.e. so it leaves no doubt they're the best. Because if not & all 3 of them have bad days... then oh boy.

Imagine a scenario in which Pog's Loze collapse from last year happens to Vinge, Pog & Evenepoel at some point in the remaining stages?

Goddamn, that would redefine the definition of frustration.
 
I hope someone (either Vingegaard or Pog or both) absolutely smashes the coming weekend & the last week, i.e. so it leaves no doubt they're the best. Because if not & all 3 of them have bad days... then oh boy.

Imagine a scenario in which Pog's Loze collapse from last year happens to Vinge, Pog & Evenepoel at some point in the remaining stages?

Goddamn, that would redefine the definition of frustration.

Well, IMO there are question marks over 3-week consistency in case of both Pog and Vingo. But not necessarily Loze-format collapse. We will see, there is a decent chance that one of them avoids any major form lapse.
 
It just doesn't feel right. Rogla always respected this race, put months of work into it, changed teams, and then i feel that the race never really respected Rogla back. It just makes you question if it's still appropriate to respect this race that much, going forward. Season peak for sure, when participating, anything more than that, to not lose any sleep over it. There just needs to be some mutual respect involved, else on why bother. Why even to discuss things like age, peak level ... If you then can't even perform, as an elite athlete, on this specific race. In the end it's worthy, but not that worthy. I would never ever replace Rogličes professional career as a cyclist for a Tour win or two. Tour just doesn't come close. So if there is some specific issue with this race, that just doesn't suit Rogla, fourth year in a row. *** it.
 
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It just doesn't feel right. Rogla always respected this race, put months of work into it, changed teams, and then i feel that the race never really respected Rogla back. It just makes you question if it's still appropriate to respect this race that much, going forward. Season peak for sure, when participating, anything more than that, to not lose any sleep over it. There just needs to be some mutual respect involved, else on why bother. Why even to discuss things like age, peak level ... If you then can't even perform, as an elite athlete, on this specific race. In the end it's worthy, but not that worthy. I would never ever replace Rogličes professional career as a cyclist for a Tour win or two. Tour just doesn't come close. So if there is some specific issue with this race, that just doesn't suit Rogla, fourth year in a row. *** it.

I think the problem here is a problem of perception as well.

Roglič is the highest profile rider who suffers disasters at the Tour every time he goes. But there are lots of lesser known, lower profile riders who're suffering disasters all year long. I don't even know who to begin with just in this Tour, i.e. Pello Bilbao, Juan Ayuso & others. In other races we've seen Jay Vine fall again, again & again, hurting himself really badly in Itzulia.

Rog is basically a lightning rod for all things 'awful' in the Tour de France due to his history in the race. He causes arguments & crystallizes opinions regarding crashes & race safety. People only talk about him though because he's one of the best riders in the world.

Meanwhile I look at a rider like Fabio Jakobsen who was one of the best sprinters in the world a couple of seasons ago & now no one seems to care that he's had a horrible TdF with zero form. IMO that's a far worse fate than what Rog just suffered.

Better to go out with a bang, rather than a whimper.
 
I know. Zonnerveld was completely spot on here. As was Merijn Zeeman afterwards who said it was entirely the organization's fault.

Gouvenou is basically defending himself & the ASO by hiding behind a binary "leave it unmarked or pay 100,000 euros to remove them" choice which conveniently omits the fact there's a middle ground (indicating them) which you referred to.
It’s a crazy bit of infrastructure even for cars. If they just want a solid meridian why are there gaps (apparently to switch lanes, but then why have a meridian at all?
 
Mar 17, 2022
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Today in an interview in German TV with Denk (Bora manager): "The team did nothing wrong. Not everyone can be in the front. "

Bildschirmfoto-vom-2024-07-12-19-39-11.png

True, so why even try ...

Denk: "The team was directly behind UAE".
Bildschirmfoto-vom-2024-07-12-19-34-41.png

Either he never saw the crash on TV or he meant Uno-X.

Its crazy how many teams are ahead of Bora. Looking at the replay it's also crazy how the three Uno-X riders avoided Lutsenko but Primoz is asleep at the wheel.

In this situation apparently Roglic is trying to pull his team back to the front. But just because of his crash proneness and lack of race awareness, you can't have him ride alone in front in a situation like this. Bora IMO is bad and lazy.
 
Today in an interview in German TV with Denk (Bora manager): "The team did nothing wrong. Not everyone can be in the front. "

Bildschirmfoto-vom-2024-07-12-19-39-11.png

True, so why even try ...

Denk: "The team was directly behind UAE".
Bildschirmfoto-vom-2024-07-12-19-34-41.png

Either he never saw the crash on TV or he meant Uno-X.

Its crazy how many teams are ahead of Bora. Looking at the replay it's also crazy how the three Uno-X riders avoided Lutsenko but Primoz is asleep at the wheel.

In this situation apparently Roglic is trying to pull his team back to the front. But just because of his crash proneness and lack of race awareness, you can't have him ride alone in front in a situation like this. Bora IMO is bad and lazy.

Denk is covering for his team. Behind closed doors there will be an inquest as always & they'll determine what could have been done.

It was a huge disaster in any case.

Anyone with half a brain can see Roglic' positioning issues. Jumbo managed it much better.

I also think now is not the time I'd talk much to Roglic about his positioning.

What troubled me yesterday was at about the 20km to go mark, we could see Rog sitting on Evenepoel's wheel right on the front row, alone, without any teammates anywhere near him.

Then a few km's later he slipped back down the bunch to where his team was but continued riding in front of them until the crash.
 
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