Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Filippo_3467]

This is probably where Roglic gets 4th on Hautacam which means you were confidently very wrong, and then claim you were right.

What are you talking about? If roglic gets fourth I was very wrong and I will say so. I was also very confident that roglic will easily win the Giro. I was also very wrong there and said so.

 

[Filippo_3467]

If UAE and Jumbo go on the gas with that split to drive it into the next hill. Roglic looses another 40 sec then and there. It's obvious that this has nothing to do with having teammates around he just doesn't had the level today to compete with the best.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If UAE and Jumbo go on the gas with that split to drive it into the next hill. Roglic looses another 40 sec then and there. It's obvious that this has nothing to do with having teammates around he just doesn't had the level today to compete with the best.

UAE and Visma pretty much don't care about anything but each other. On stage 1 Rogla didn't lose 40s due to UAE and Visma, but due to RBH. As for stage 2 Rogla finished in the same group as the stage winner.

 

[Oldman]

If UAE and Jumbo go on the gas with that split to drive it into the next hill. Roglic looses another 40 sec then and there. It's obvious that this has nothing to do with having teammates around he just doesn't had the level today to compete with the best.

Both Stage 1 and today, Roglic stayed up front. Yesterday and today the traffic roundabouts forced peleton splits that totally messed with pack placement. You can only catch up so many times and today PR and Remco did what they should to regain front group pack time. Primoz was poking his sprint game out a couple of times but backed off when Julian came to the front and the finish made the right turn. Remco was further back but placed to finish as he should.
Either of these guys trying to win a stage against Alpecin would waste huge amounts of energy. JV kept Jonas right there and he benefitted. My regret is that Matteo sat up instead of taking the stage.

There isn't much "if" about team aggression by UAE, JV, Alpecin and sprinter interests. GC guys normally are careful about interfering or you get taken off the road by a dicksprinter. That was one of Primoz's Tour exits and he now knows better.

 

[Oldman]

UAE and Visma pretty much don't care about anything but each other. On stage 1 Rogla didn't lose 40s due to UAE and Visma, but due to RBH. As for stage 2 Rogla finished in the same group as the stage winner.

Lets be honest; S1 there wasn't enough RBH interest to protect the two, good GC guys. Then Denk called it off.
Stage 2 they were embarrassed but still largely left all of the pack battles to the same two GC guys. Not any leadouts there. Same for Remco.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Oldman

At stage 1 GC ambitions were sacrificed for dedicated sprinters. Stage 2 was IMHO good, for Rogla and the team did a good job. Attentive when riding in the bunch and closing the gap for the leader. You can't ask for more. Rogla sprinting, not in the mood. Today pursuing a stage win, that was sacrificed for the greater goal. Rightfully so. Pogi tried and failed too, did got polka dots in return.

 

[Juan Pelota]

@Oldman

At stage 1 GC ambitions were sacrificed for dedicated sprinters. Stage 2 was IMHO good, for Rogla and the team did a good job. Attentive when riding in the bunch and closing the gap for the leader. You can't ask for more. Rogla sprinting, not in the mood. Today pursuing a stage win, that was sacrificed for the greater goal. Rightfully so. Pogi tried and failed too, did got polka dots in return.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. If Primoz was solid he would have been in the front selection when it was just MvDP, Pog, Jonas, Matteo, Remco and Gregoire. But he was behind.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Don't see how today is a sign of anything whatsoever, it's been clear for a while that he doesn't have the puncheur sharpness he used to have 4-5 years ago. In the bigger scheme of things coming 1st, 5th or 15th here doesn't make a difference.
If anything, while Bora were bad yesterday today was actually a good thing overall. Yes, they could've positioned themselves better into the climb but Lipowitz was good and pulled the gap back after the climb without hesitation and in the end there is no time loss and another hectic stage done.

 

[red_flanders]

I have a hunch he's going to round into form and have some excellent performances in the mountains, and this kind of conversation about him is all going to feel like ancient history.

 

[dazaau]

I have a hunch he's going to round into form and have some excellent performances in the mountains, and this kind of conversation about him is all going to feel like ancient history.

Let's just get him to the mountains, they are so far away!

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I’m talking about these stages:

La Vuelta Ciclista a España 2024 Stage 4 results

La Vuelta Ciclista a España 2024 Stage 4 from Plasencia to Pico Villuercas was won by Primož RogliÄ before Lennert Van Eetvelt and João Almeida. Primož RogliÄ was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

La Vuelta Ciclista a España 2023 Stage 8 results

La Vuelta Ciclista a España 2023 Stage 8 from Dénia to Xorret de CatÃ. Costa Blanca Interior was won by Primož RogliÄ before Remco Evenepoel and Juan Ayuso. Sepp Kuss was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

La Vuelta ciclista a España 2022 Stage 4 results

La Vuelta ciclista a España 2022 Stage 4 from Vitoria-Gasteiz to Laguardia was won by Primož RogliÄ before Mads Pedersen and Enric Mas. Primož RogliÄ was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

La Vuelta ciclista a España 2021 Stage 6 results

La Vuelta ciclista a España 2021 Stage 6 from Requena to Alto de la Montaña de Cullera was won by Magnus Cort before Primož RogliÄ and Andrea Bagioli. Primož RogliÄ was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

Tour de France 2020 Stage 4 results

Tour de France 2020 Stage 4 from Sisteron to Orcières-Merlette was won by Primož RogliÄ before Tadej PogaÄar and Guillaume Martin. Julian Alaphilippe was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Rackham]

Beyond what everyone believes has happened to our favorite stomper and his fast twitch fibers (abducted by aliens and replaced by a clone is a possibility we can't discount), his coach Marc Lamberts said before the Giro that he's training specifically for longer efforts now - not punchiness. We covered this topic a couple of months ago, i.e. he's evolved from an Alaphilippe type who excelled on shorter efforts to a climber type who can now adapt to the needs of modern cycling - which is going faster and harder on longer climbs than he used to.

And guess what? This Tour has a load of longer effort climbing later in the race, i.e. 40 minute+ grinds. So maybe he is totally washed and kaput but there is a valid explanation here (aka his aforementioned training) and until he's shown his hand in the mountains (or hasn't because he doesn't have it), I'll reserve judgement.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Beyond what everyone believes has happened to our favorite stomper and his fast twitch fibers (abducted by aliens and replaced by a clone is a possibility we can't discount), his coach Marc Lamberts said before the Giro that he's training specifically for longer efforts now - not punchiness. We covered this topic a couple of months ago, i.e. he's evolved from an Alaphilippe type who excelled on shorter efforts to a climber type who can now adapt to the needs of modern cycling - which is going faster and harder on longer climbs than he used to.

And guess what? This Tour has a load of longer effort climbing later in the race, i.e. 40 minute+ grinds. So maybe he is totally washed and kaput but there is a valid explanation here (aka his aforementioned training) and until he's shown his hand in the mountains (or hasn't because he doesn't have it), I'll reserve judgement.

Rogla is now a diesel climber. Accelerations on mole hills kill him. Fortunately Mt Ventoux and Loze are long enough for him to warm up and show Pogi & Vingo who's the boss.

 

[Roku]

Beyond what everyone believes has happened to our favorite stomper and his fast twitch fibers (abducted by aliens and replaced by a clone is a possibility we can't discount), his coach Marc Lamberts said before the Giro that he's training specifically for longer efforts now - not punchiness. We covered this topic a couple of months ago, i.e. he's evolved from an Alaphilippe type who excelled on shorter efforts to a climber type who can now adapt to the needs of modern cycling - which is going faster and harder on longer climbs than he used to.

And guess what? This Tour has a load of longer effort climbing later in the race, i.e. 40 minute+ grinds. So maybe he is totally washed and kaput but there is a valid explanation here (aka his aforementioned training) and until he's shown his hand in the mountains (or hasn't because he doesn't have it), I'll reserve judgement.

Nothing against your post, but I found funny that longer efforts on the mountains are perceived as modern cycling, when it's the opposite. Muritos and wall climbs are modern cycling, GC was traditionally built on long and sustained efforts on multi mountain stages and really long TTs.

Regarding Roglic time will tell. I personally think it's rather clear he is at least a level (or two) below his old self. If I were him I would have targeted the record at the Vuelta, which has always been the GT best suited to his strenghts and the one he is more likely to win, but with he earned the status to choose his calendar a long time ago.

 

[Rackham]

Nothing against your post, but I found funny that longer efforts on the mountains are perceived as modern cycling, when it's the opposite. Muritos and wall climbs are modern cycling, GC was traditionally built on long and sustained efforts on multi mountain stages and really long TTs.

Regarding Roglic time will tell. I personally think it's rather clear he is at least a level (or two) below his old self. If I were him I would have targeted the record at the Vuelta, which has always been the GT best suited to his strenghts and the one he is more likely to win, but with he earned the status to choose his calendar a long time ago.

Well, because everyone is making predictions here and saying what his level is based on the data available, I'll stick my neck out and say I believe all things being equal (aka no crashes) he'll be third best climber in this TdF and podium.

What else can I say? I trust the process and the one thing that always gets totally forgotten is the Roglič-Lamberts team knows how to prepare for GT's and usually gets it right. I think when the riders are passing through Chalet Reynard on the Ventoux next week, then all this extrapolation from stages like yesterday will seem like a very long time ago.

 

[Red Rick]

Nothing against your post, but I found funny that longer efforts on the mountains are perceived as modern cycling, when it's the opposite. Muritos and wall climbs are modern cycling, GC was traditionally built on long and sustained efforts on multi mountain stages and really long TTs.

Regarding Roglic time will tell. I personally think it's rather clear he is at least a level (or two) below his old self. If I were him I would have targeted the record at the Vuelta, which has always been the GT best suited to his strenghts and the one he is more likely to win, but with he earned the status to choose his calendar a long time ago.

There was definitely a solid period in the 2010s and what not where a lot of climbs were done with very negative splits so where they would go under the max until the final 1-5km of the climb.

Beyond what everyone believes has happened to our favorite stomper and his fast twitch fibers (abducted by aliens and replaced by a clone is a possibility we can't discount), his coach Marc Lamberts said before the Giro that he's training specifically for longer efforts now - not punchiness. We covered this topic a couple of months ago, i.e. he's evolved from an Alaphilippe type who excelled on shorter efforts to a climber type who can now adapt to the needs of modern cycling - which is going faster and harder on longer climbs than he used to.

And guess what? This Tour has a load of longer effort climbing later in the race, i.e. 40 minute+ grinds. So maybe he is totally washed and kaput but there is a valid explanation here (aka his aforementioned training) and until he's shown his hand in the mountains (or hasn't because he doesn't have it), I'll reserve judgement.

It's also a periodization thing. The kick was alright in Catalunya, especially on Montjuic he just torched everyone on a sub 2 minute hill doing a consistent pace. But then he did specific training for the Giro, which is mostly endurance and long work (my boy really wanted that Finestre FTP test).

And now he's had to recover first from his Giro before doing work for the Tour. He's probably coming in a little slow, like last year, when he got dropped silly on basically his favorite hill and then by stage 11 he was already stomping away from Evenepoel on short steep sections.

ALso remember than in 2022 he was nowhere to be found on that stage 4 hill and then he got 3rd on PDBF a broken back and dislocated shoulder later.

 

[Roku]

There was definitely a solid period in the 2010s and what not where a lot of climbs were done with very negative splits so where they would go under the max until the final 1-5km of the climb.

Yeah, I know, an infamous five year window spearhearded by the nefarious Sky train and Purito. Thank god that era is over. Anyways what i wanted to stress is this kind of racing is not modern cycling, but traditional cycling.

 

[Rackham]

If there's one thing people should know by now is Rog doesn't like a fight for position in a large group going into a very short effort. For that he needs to be placed properly at the front of the bunch and be riding against rivals who aren't better than him in those conditions. Yesterday was no such day. I emphasise the size of the group here because it matters. He loses wheels and either gets bullied or just doesn't react and let's the race come back together on its own.

There's many examples here, like stage 3 of last year's Dauphiné when Derek Gee just casually beat a totally passive Rog (who finished 10th) on a short punchy climb and everyone screamed "washed". A few days later he was mountain sprinting like Valverde's twin in a normal Alpine stage.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. If Primoz was solid he would have been in the front selection when it was just MvDP, Pog, Jonas, Matteo, Remco and Gregoire. But he was behind.

We were mostly discussing team support, as some said everything is bad now, where on the contrary stage 2 is on where team performed good. Kept Rogla at front in the bunch towards the end of the stage and closed the gap, you can't ask for more. As for Rogla being solid or not, IMHO he made the right call, not to sprint against van der Poel and to utilise his team to the fullest before that.

Don't see how today is a sign of anything whatsoever, it's been clear for a while that he doesn't have the puncheur sharpness he used to have 4-5 years ago.

IMHO it's still there, stage 2 was just not suitable terrain and the circumstances were not right to utilise it.

If anything, while Bora were bad yesterday today was actually a good thing overall. Yes, they could've positioned themselves better into the climb but Lipowitz was good and pulled the gap back after the climb without hesitation and in the end there is no time loss and another hectic stage done.

Agree.

I have a hunch he's going to round into form and have some excellent performances in the mountains, and this kind of conversation about him is all going to feel like ancient history.

There is indeed on where this Tour will get decided, sprints are about prestige.

 

[pablohidalgo7]

He was even worse in stage 2 last year, no punch, 0 risk taken and very undercooked in general, but he was a bit better in Stage 4, much better in TT and close to his best in Stage 11.

I expect a similar thing this year, but we will see…

 

[Rackham]

He was even worse in stage 2 last year, no punch, 0 risk taken and very undercooked in general, but he was a bit better in Stage 4, much better in TT and close to his best in Stage 11.

I expect a similar thing this year, but we will see…

No crashes. This can't be stressed enough. Just do not crash.

We want to see him fight on equal terms against these other guys just once. Just think how nice it would be to see a TdF finish without incident and to say at the end "this was indeed his level and he couldn't do better".

 

[CyclistAbi]

He was even worse in stage 2 last year, no punch, 0 risk taken and very undercooked in general, but he was a bit better in Stage 4, much better in TT and close to his best in Stage 11.

I expect a similar thing this year, but we will see…

Indeed the team didn't close the gap to the other three at stage 2 of the 2024 edition, so this has improved. And indeed if after stage 4 we can say that Rogla finished in the same group as the winner, penultimate climb will be challenging, that would again be much better. We'll see.

 

[Purito91]

I thought he was done after last years tour but then he was great at the vuelta. This years volta a catalonia was also very strong. And i heard some statements from his teammembers before the giro that he was climbing really strong in the training camps. I think pellizari said this.

From what i saw in the giro and until now in the tour im not so optimistic anymore but maybe he just wants to arrive to the mountains with no crashes and then give us a show.

But i dont think he has any chance against pogacar and vingegard.

 

[CyclistAbi]

But i dont think he has any chance against pogacar and vingegard.

Why?

 

[AmRacer]

Why?

Nobody has a chance against Pogi and Vinge