Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

Pogacar also beats Roglic convincingly in staying on the bike, arguably the most important aspect of cycling.

Not many people noticed, but Pogacar did crash in the Tour this year (stage 3, same as Roglic but less severe consequences obviously). People who follow him on social media also know he can crash in training as well (he did so earlier this year). So I know there's some banter out there (or even some pretty harsh criticism) about Roglic crashing a lot, but in cycling sooner or later everyone hits the deck.

Roglic just happens to have some famous crashes & losses.

 

[tobydawq]

Not many people noticed, but Pogacar did crash in the Tour this year (stage 3, same as Roglic but less severe consequences obviously). People who follow him on social media also know he can crash in training as well (he did so earlier this year). So I know there's some banter out there (or even some pretty harsh criticism) about Roglic crashing a lot, but in cycling sooner or later everyone hits the deck.

Roglic just happens to have some famous crashes & losses.

He didn't crash on that stage, that was not the reason he missed the split. He said he was blocked but didn't touch the ground.

 

[Bonimenier]

It's not the most important aspect.

I haven't crashed all year, alas I'm still pretty far from a Tour win.

But otherwise, yes, Pogacar is flawless when it comes to that.

You're still closer to a Tour win than someone who would crash out every time he participates though.

 

[tobydawq]

You're still closer to a Tour win than someone who would crash out every time he participates though.

Maybe I should write around to the team managers and tell them that, then

 

[bNator]

Not many people noticed, but Pogacar did crash in the Tour this year (stage 3, same as Roglic but less severe consequences obviously). People who follow him on social media also know he can crash in training as well (he did so earlier this year). So I know there's some banter out there (or even some pretty harsh criticism) about Roglic crashing a lot, but in cycling sooner or later everyone hits the deck.

Roglic just happens to have some famous crashes & losses.

Yes, Dan Lloyd had an interesting take on than subject - emphasizing that Roglic crashes are high profile because he always crashes out of leading position, because he’s always leading. He had 6 crashes this year, three of them were his direct fault, 2 of them he could do nothing about (TDF stage 1 and 2nd Vuelta crash) and one is debatable (TDF stage 3)... last year was even better - only one crash the entire year which was a mechanical. He has never broken a bone in his entire career and only twice was he forced to abandon the race due to a crash. It’s not that bad actually...

That being said, having checked Pogacar‘s IG, he seems to be a spectacular bike handler.

 

[Rackham]

He didn't crash on that stage, that was not the reason he missed the split. He said he was blocked but didn't touch the ground.

Alright then, my mistake.

I still think it's a bad idea to present such a young rider as seemingly bullet proof or crash immune (whilst Roglic apparently throws himself into the ditch as a hobby).

I've been watching this sport for so long & even the "world's best bike handlers" (Sean Kelly's favorite catch-phrase) eventually hit the deck again & again.

 

[bNator]

You're still closer to a Tour win than someone who would crash out every time he participates though.

What kind of ridiculous clam is that? The one who never participates has a higher chance of winning than one who participates but always crashes out? Do people in Tibet have higher chance of walking the sun because they are closer?

 

[tobydawq]

What kind of ridiculous clam is that? The one who never participates has a higher chance of winning than one who participates but always crashes out? Do people in Tibet have higher chance of walking the sun because they are closer?

Just as I had gotten my hopes up

 

[Red Rick]

I for one am so glad we finally have found the worthy successor of peak Froome vs peak Contador and 2014 Tour de France hypotheticals.

 

[Bonimenier]

Alright then, my mistake.

I still think it's a bad idea to present such a young rider as seemingly bullet proof or crash immune (whilst Roglic apparently throws himself into the ditch as a hobby).

I've been watching this sport for so long & even the "world's best bike handlers" (Sean Kelly's favorite catch-phrase) eventually hit the deck again & again.

I don't think anyone claims that Pogacar is crash immune. But it's definitely worth noticing that he is one of the best bike handlers amongst the GC-riders which should give him a better chance to get through a Grand Tour.

What kind of ridiculous clam is that? The one who never participates has a higher chance of winning than one who participates but always crashes out? Do people in Tibet have higher chance of walking the sun because they are closer?

Why so aggresive? I can't react to the post of Tobydawq saying he isn't close to winning the TdF because he hasn't crashed this year with that claim?

 

[Rackham]

I don't think anyone claims that Pogacar is crash immune. But it's definitely worth noticing that he is one of the best bike handlers amongst the GC-riders which should give him a better chance to get through a Grand Tour.

Good bike handling in my book is also about going fast, in all scenarios.

Take descents for example, i.e. you can see riders like Pierre Latour totally blocked mentally & not manage. It's like a complete shutdown & they can no longer do the job. That's a serious handicap for a GC rider.

Roglic though is a super fast descender. Yeah he can crash, but as long as he has the speed he can win. For example Jacky Durand on French Eurosport was screaming at him about his bad descending in the Vuelta, but the clock told a different story.

At this point I assume crashes is the next element on the list of "perceived Roglic weaknesses" to be checked off, i.e. after the mythical "bad third week" was put to bed in this most recent Vuelta, I say the "Roglic always crashes" narrative is next. He'll ride a GT next year without crashes or incidents & then everyone can get to talking about the next "weakness" (which is probably going to be his age, sooner or later).

 

[bNator]

Why so aggresive? I can't react to the post of Tobydawq saying he isn't close to winning the TdF because he hasn't crashed this year with that claim?

I’m not agressive, at least not on purpose. But your claim was, how do I put this more diplomatically, very far-fetched and logically incorrect, whileTobydawq was just trying to illustrate how staying on you bike is a neccessity rather than quality.

 

[Bonimenier]

I’m not agressive, at least not on purpose. But your claim was, how do I put this more diplomatically, very far-fetched and logically incorrect, whileTobydawq was just trying to illustrate how staying on you bike is a neccessity rather than quality.

sure

 

[Rackham]

Honestly at this point I get the entire conversation about bike handing & Roglic is simply about people looking for weaknesses.

I mean back in 2018 he was actually getting praise for his descending & bike handling. Until Paris-Nice this year, I can't ever remember reading or hearing much about Roglic being a bad bike handler.

I think some people call this sort of stuff "recency bias".

I for one am so glad we finally have found the worthy successor of peak Froome vs peak Contador and 2014 Tour de France hypotheticals.

I feel an interesting sequel to the 2014 hypotheticals (& just as indecisive) would be a hypothetical 2021 Contador versus 2021 Froome.

And here's the obvious part: 2021 Nibali definitely crushes both.

 

[Bolder]

Rominger (3 vuelta, 1 giro, 2 lombardia) versus Lemond (3 tdf, 2 wrr)?

Lemomd's 3 TdFs were pretty special, and I will argue that had he avoided being shot and the early 90s clinic free for all hadn't happened he'd be among the ATGs.

 

[Bolder]

If they want to win the Tour, they need the same commitment. Not half way with split objectives, no, full focus.

Going to be hard having Wout on the team.

He's no less impressive than Roglic and deserves chances to shine.

 

[Rackham]

Going to be hard having Wout on the team.

He's no less impressive than Roglic and deserves chances to shine.

He can't win the Tour de France. Roglic can. Wout van Aert can't pass the steep cols with Pogacar (he's too heavy), Roglic can. Yes Wout van Aert is a massive talent & one of the world's best cyclists, but he's not going to bring home the yellow jersey next year. Whereas Roglic can.

And unfortunately stuff Wout van Aert has to do for the green jersey (like win punchy hard finishes as he did today in the Tour of Britain), Roglic has to do those as well for the sake of the bonus seconds.

It's going to take some very careful planning & strong leadership in the car to make both Wout van Aert's green objective & Roglic's yellow objective work in the Tour de France next year (if that's their goal).

 

[Rackham]

FYI Ineos are a perfect case in point regarding how an abundance of talent & stars doesn't make a strong GC team.

Yates, Carapaz & Bernal (& even Pidcock) never seemed like they were on the same page in the Vuelta (Dylan van Baarle & Sivakov were good though). Whereas in the Giro the team was arguably less "bling" with big names but was a hell of a lot stronger around Bernal's GC objective.

And if the Tour has become too big & too important for sponsors to the extent teams must chase everything across the board with all their best riders, then the "circus" has become detrimental to the goal of winning yellow.

It's almost like it's easier for TJV to focus solely on GC in races like the Vuelta than in the Tour de France.

 

[SafeBet]

Add in 2 WCRRs and its not even a competion.

Not everybody agrees that WC RR has higher value than a Monument. And Rominger has 2 Monuments in his palmares.
If you really want to use the UCI point system (which I'm not in favor of btw):

• Lemond: 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 600 + 600 = 4200
• Rominger: 850 + 850 + 850 + 850 + 500 + 500 =4400

So yeah, anyway you wanna look at it, it's still a competition, but I will never try to convince you Rominger's palmares is better than Lemond's. As I've stated before, cases like this require a bit more flexibility and ultimately it can come down to personal preference.

 

[Carols]

Going to be hard having Wout on the team.

He's no less impressive than Roglic and deserves chances to shine.

He gets his chance in every classic and every stage race that Roglic doesn't participate in.

 

[Carols]

but I will never try to convince you Rominger's palmares is better than Lemond's.

That's a Safe Bet

 

[Bonimenier]

He gets his chance in every classic and every stage race that Roglic doesn't participate in.

Couldn't you say the exact same for Roglic as well? In the end the Tour is the biggest stage and that's where the best riders, which they both are a part of, want to show themselves.

 

[Netserk]

Couldn't you say the exact same for Roglic as well? In the end the Tour is the biggest stage and that's where the best riders, which they both are a part of, want to show themselves.

The point is that Van Aert would get his chance in the Tour over Rogla if he (WvA) was able to win it. He gets his chance in every race he can win, and the same should be the case for Roglič. When both can win a race, they should be co-captains, when only one of them can win a race that rider should be sole captain.

Wout van Aert has been the captain for J-V in every single race he has ridden for the team in those races he could win. Like Amstel this year where he was clearly number 1 on the team (with good reason).

 

[Carols]

His Coord Classic title tips it in his favor
( Though I wish we still had that race!)

Nah it was his Tour DuPont win! (One of the ugliest wins I've ever seen!)
But I really miss that race it started an hour from me and I followed it in person multiple times.

 

[Sciatic]

Nah it was his Tour DuPont win! (One of the ugliest wins I've ever seen!)
But I really miss that race it started an hour from me and I followed it in person multiple times.