Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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Okay, well explained. But if it was me in Roglič’s situation I’d have been behind Wright with margin for error to avoid any clash of bars or other normal sprinting mishaps. It is always possible to reduce your odds of crashing.

Yeah but that is on why you and me likely won't ever win a GT. We would likely just settle being second. Three minutes down on Evenepoel.

P.S. On a more serious note. On why we needed to have this talk. It's not the last time Roglič will contest the sprint. This is just something the bunch will need to accept and to deal with it. He is now one of the big boys.
 
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Wright wasn't going to win either and his existence ruined the whole GC race. the post i quoted was talking as if Roglic was participating in a full bunch sprint when the fact is that he was the only reason that group got off the front in the first place.

So Fred Wrigth ruined the Vuelta ?

I dont know but those arguments put forward by Roglic supporters on here haver me really really convinced that

  1. Fred Wright should never have been born or failing that should just be grateful to be at the Vuelta and should stay at the back of the peloton
  2. Roglic never complains so we need to back him no matter that this is clear evidence of Roglic (erreonously) dishing out blame and complaining
  3. any other person/rider who doesnt agree with Roglic assessment/statement is a clown
  4. any rider not a good as Roglic needs to get out of his way no matter where he is coming from
5 people (who dont agree with the above ) couldn't care less if a meteor would hit the peloton or are haters or shot the sherrif

q.e.d. :rolleyes:
 
Roglič was constantly getting bullied in the bunch. Being a GC sprinter. I always thought one of the bigger boys from his team will step up and do something about it. It really never happened. Seeing on how he now said enough is enough and went straight in the hornets nest. Stood up for himself. Here is where we draw the line. Pawing the way for younger generation of GC riders to contest the sprints. And not getting killed. I feel that riding in the bunch will not represent any real problem for him from now on.

Utmost respect.
 
I’ve grown to like Roglic as a rider. Always just considered him as a 500m from the line stomper but he’s done a lot more to impress me, in Grand Tours and one-day races.

However, his recent statement on Fred Wright has made me lose a lot of respect for him. But I’m going to put it down to anger and frustration on his part because he was getting better in the Vuelta and probably thought he could do something to win.

Once he cools down he needs to put out another statement putting it down to “That’s racing, yeah?”
 
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How about we take Roglic and Wright at their words? Here's Wright (from the stage writeup): “I think it was just a racing incident. I was coming out and around and he was coming backwards."

So Wright says he was coming out and around. Sure not holding his line. Roglic says that Wright took out his handlebars while Wright was coming from behind. They both agree on what happened. Wright calls that a "racing incident", whlie Roglic thinks it was reckless. That's where they disagree.

The point is worth making. Wright says he was coming out, Roglic says he came out. Neither of them said Roglic came in on Wright.
 
A thumb's up for the footage. -- Still hard to say one rider was at fault. Depending on allegiances, different viewers may come to different conclusions.
Again, look at the momentum and line of both riders and its elementary my dear Watson. Roglic was fading, Wright was passing and kept a line between the white stripes and the barriers, which not only was his every right (and was simply following the rider before him), but he had nowhere else to go. By contrast, Roglic veered across the white stripes and made contact with a faster moving and passing Wright with his front wheel (the angle of Rog's bike shows he was moving into Wright's line, whose momentum had already gained him the advantage in position). So it has nothing to do with allegiances, but objective analysis of the dynamic. Unfortunately, Rog made a fatal error in judgment and caused his own misfortune, since anytime a rider loosing momentum touches with his front wheel another rider's bike that is passing, and who hasn't deviated from his line, goes down by his own mistake.
 
Its basically Hurtness bias. The person who is hurt less receives the first blame. Sagan vs Cav comes to mind where Cav got injured badly and Sagan got the blame but detailed analysis shows the Cav tried to go where no rider had gone before. Even my initial reaction was that Roglic got elbowed out of the line. There is no contest of elbows between a 65 kg and a 80 kg rider. (Contador also getting elbowed and crashed in the TDF by Karpets comes to mind). But in this case replays and other footage show otherwise. To condem somebody, u need some evidence.
I am sure Roglic would be blamed if Fred crashed and ended up in hospital.
 
I get all this. But at end of the day Roglič didn’t stand to gain much my contesting that sprint. Time bonus when he is how far behind? It was easily avoidable if he didn’t put himself into a risky situation. I don’t get why Roglič didn’t back off and let the group including Wright fight for the spoils?
Well, that's where the gassed judgement and Roglic's own risk taking and assertive riding combined to something not so good. I love the "no eyes on the back of my head" comment. Umm, that's racing, if you don't have a peak, and you don't know the situation, you run a big risk just trying to slot in. Whether a pro or a Cat 4, it does not matter. So it was a really poor choice to even bother trying to slot in at that point.

FWIW, it's not like this crash is comparable to some of the other ones more recently (e.g. his crash in the Tour). This one was a dumb one though, and they can happen to anyone (who wants to win and will take risks) in the heat of the moment. And of course, someone who was a ski jumper just might be less risk averse/more ballsy :) It is unfortunate that this is the crash he decided to speak out on, given the other ones seem to be more that case of being inflicted upon him. I cannot believe the words I am about to type here (because I am a Roglic fan and not a BV fan at all), but I think the BV comment on the matter is solid.
 
Again, look at the momentum and line of both riders and its elementary my dear Watson. Roglic was fading, Wright was passing and kept a line between the white stripes and the barriers, which not only was his every right (and was simply following the rider before him), but he had nowhere else to go. By contrast, Roglic veered across the white stripes and made contact with a faster moving and passing Wright with his front wheel (the angle of Rog's bike shows he was moving into Wright's line, whose momentum had already gained him the advantage in position). So it has nothing to do with allegiances, but objective analysis of the dynamic. Unfortunately, Rog made a fatal error in judgment and caused his own misfortune, since anytime a rider loosing momentum touches with his front wheel another rider's bike that is passing, and who hasn't deviated from his line, goes down by his own mistake.
This and it is fair to say that, if it was deemed that Wright was to blame for dangerous riding, the race officials would have made more comment on this (or penalized).
 
How about we take Roglic and Wright at their words? Here's Wright (from the stage writeup): “I think it was just a racing incident. I was coming out and around and he was coming backwards."

So Wright says he was coming out and around. Sure not holding his line. Roglic says that Wright took out his handlebars while Wright was coming from behind. They both agree on what happened. Wright calls that a "racing incident", whlie Roglic thinks it was reckless. That's where they disagree.

The point is worth making. Wright says he was coming out, Roglic says he came out. Neither of them said Roglic came in on Wright.
I think what Wright means is the moment he saw Rog fading (coming backwards) he decided now's the time to open up my sprint, the only direction he could go being to try and pass outwardly. But he never crossed the white stripes, so he didn't "come out and round" (not yet anyway). Whereas Rog who was getting passed came from left of the white stripes across them at the moment of contact. By this time he was no longer ahead of Wright and his veering right into Wright's line caused the touch that brought him down. Rog's fault.
 
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Yeah but that is on why you and me likely won't ever win a GT. We would likely just settle being second. Three minutes down on Evenepoel.

P.S. On a more serious note. On why we needed to have this talk. It's not the last time Roglič will contest the sprint. This is just something the bunch will need to accept and to deal with it. He is now one of the big boys.
Roglic will also need to deal with it. So far he is the one who has been taken down.
 
Classy response from Fred!
It's Roglic's usual reaction. Could Primoz be concussed??? This is certainly not his normal behavior.

He's had enough.

A section of the cycling world is always quick to always patronize Roglič & treat him like a quaint little oddity in the cycling world. Stuff like "he's a fighter, he crashes a lot but always comes back, he's such a good sportsman" etc. always drips with a veneer of contempt.

There was no listening to his perspective & no respect after Tuesday. It was a disaster FWIW, i.e. a full season of training & preparation for the GT's completely lost. People can argue who was to blame for the crash but from my perspective a conversation should also be had regarding why Wright was even there. This wasn't a usual sprint, this was a small selection created by Rog himself. I mean when you're like a 23 year old no name, show some respect & leave the guy some space.

People will laugh at this remark (& call it arrogant), but this all comes back to the conditioning & preconceived bias people have towards Roglič, i.e. a 3x GT champion/Olympic champion with over 60 victories to his name... who gets treated like a noob who can't handle his bike & shouldn't even be contesting the sprint.

Replace Roglič with Nibali (for example) in that sprint & let's see if Wright does the same thing.
 
I mean when you're like a 23 year old no name, show some respect & leave the guy some space.
Rackham, do you race? Weight was on the wheel and on the rivet. It's not about respect. Everyone is pinning it and riding almost on instincts. There was no space to slide in. While Roglic made a mistake and shouldn't be getting so much hate swung his way, I'm not sure why Wright should be getting any vitriol here either.
 
Yes, Wright would ride a normal sprint, but Nibali won't crash.
Roglic blaming Wright just shows that he still doesn't realize that he has problem in hectic situations. It won't get better if he is always blaming other riders.

I'd venture he sees the name Nibali on the dossard & thinks twice before squeezing through.

But this really just comes down to Roglič no longer wanting to be a fool in someone's grim spectacle, i.e. like a clown performing for the masses as they laugh at his failures.

Twitter erupted over this because Roglič isn't allowed a seat at the best table in the cycling hierarchy where he's given the respect he's earned. People can deny this but there's always been contempt & disrespect towards this rider, always. Since he's an outsider essentially from a small country who bypassed all the youth categories & made his own career out of nothing, he's got no real backers behind him, no support system, no journalists who have his back, nothing like the larger Anglo world rallying behind Fred Wright, zip.

So now people will insult him some more, say they've lost respect, call him names etc. but what he really wants is for fellow riders to give him respect on the road. He's not looking for people post cutesy messages about his fighting spirit & 'gentlemanly conduct' off the bike, he wants to win.

This statement to me says he's completely 1000% committed to having a better season next year & doesn't care what people say or think. As long as his team have his back.

Roglič is essentially embracing his inner Gino Mäder slayer.
 
Rackham, do you race? Weight was on the wheel and on the rivet. It's not about respect. Everyone is pinning it and riding almost on instincts. There was no space to slide in. While Roglic made a mistake and shouldn't be getting so much hate swung his way, I'm not sure why Wright should be getting any vitriol here either.

I have no vitriol towards Wirght. He made a mistake. The vitriol we see is entirely one sided actually, i.e. it's aimed at Roglič & absolutely predates yesterday's statement. His comments here have simply given people an excuse to post what they really think.

Like the Gino Mäder incident which caused an internet explosion for the same reasons, i.e. in the eyes of many followers he wasn't allowed to do that for the reasons I mentioned previously (i.e. basically a broader sentiment of "know your place!"). The patronizing "you don't behave like that in the peloton" from people like Chris Horner & co was nauseating.

They're basically okay with Roglič playing in their sandpit (& acting the role of 'cutesy gentleman crash merchant') but have always had problems with him winning & crushing riders who've been through all the youth systems & especially their own countries.
 
I'd venture he sees the name Nibali on the dossard & thinks twice before squeezing through.
This isn't a traffic rule. Wright wasn't squeezing. He was riding a straight line along the barriers and something came closer and closer and touched his left side.

... Could Primoz be concussed??? This is certainly not his normal behavior.
The main question is: did anyone in the JV PR / marketing department get a concussion as well

...Then i read the response from Bahrain. They are not disputing the claim Roglič made. They are saying it was a racing incident and for them ultimately it comes down to:
Ofcourse they are not disputing Roglic wild claims. They stay diplomatic. JV could learn a thing or 2 with the Bahrain statement.

Hence for Bahrain as long as the sprinter doesn't deviate from his line he can pretty much do anything. Hence as Wright didn't deviate from his line. For them it doesn't matter if he came from behind and rode the handlebars out of Rogličes hands.

Well, not only for them, but for the whole of cycling it doesn't matter if Wright came from behind (again: it doesn't matter if Wright was behind or in front, try to get that for a moment: it's not downhill skiing). What does matter is that Roglic can't just do pretty much anything: he deviated from his line, and the more I think about it, the more I believe he didn't see Wright and was only focused on Van Poppel's back wheel. So he made the poor judgment that Van Poppel was last of the group and tried to slot in behind him (note that Roglic was pulling from the climb and most likely didn't have a clue how many riders where in his wheel). He just didn't see Wright (while in a video still you could see he was looking right to see where he could slot in). And that alone is a stupid mistake (one of not looking before you make a manouver). This isn't a TTT where a team mate is going to give you space to slot in. It's a line of riders starting a sprint and if they don't allow you to slot in, you go to the back. The moment Roglic deviates and tries to slot in, is the moment he's responsible for his actions and crash.

As in many cases, the outcome of the incident determines the opinion. Roglic crashed, so those supporting him, feel Wright is partly to blame. If Roglic had just a bit more stability and made Wright crash into the barriers, the outcome could have been similar to Groenewegen / Jakobsen. Those that defend Roglic here: do they also defend Groenewegen's move to the right as Jakobsen came from behind? I don't think so...

On why it is important and long over due. For Roglič to speak out. If you ride 40 km/h and someone throws a hay bale in front of you. You crash. If you ride 50 km/h and in a split second you move a couple of meters to the side. You crash. If you ride 60 km/h and in a split second somebody comes from behind and rides the handlebars out of your hands. You crash.
This has nothing to do with bike handling skills. Now as for hay bale. ASO didn't need to stand behind a hay bale. As for the other two accidents. Regardless of who stands behind who. There where always two cyclist involved. And in both cases the fault was always narrated towards Roglič. And his supposedly bad bike handling skills. Roglič never speaking about it only further cemented spreading that as facts. Roglič body checked himself, Roglič rode the handlebars out of Roglič ... Sure. Both accidents happened due to too aggressive Bahrain sprinters. That was the main cause. Next time back off. There are always two options available.
The unfortunate thing is that Roglic grabs the wrong example to make his point. The hay bale was indeed an incident where rider's safety was stupidly disregarded by the organiser. I didn't see a big statement on the JV site back then, while it was the perfect opportunity. The Colbrelli incident was a far better example of Colbrelli disregarding a fellow riders'safety. But don't throw this self-caused crash into the equation.: your 'next time back off' argument is as much as blaming the victim, which in this case is Wright, as he's a victim of a rider swerving into him and was lucky to stay upright. This really isn't about Roglic and him always getting the blame for poor riding.
 
@Rackham you are correct. Roglič does not get the same respect as other GT winners. If this was some other GC guy, Wright would make way (let’s not pretend it was only Primoz who changed his line). And more importantly, Colbrelli would make way. For instance Colbrelli’s hand gestures immediately after he sent him into gravel point to complete lack of respect.

Maybe it was in this thread that someone wondered how on Earth Lance managed to survive 7 consecutive tours without any major incidents. That’s how.
 
I'd venture he sees the name Nibali on the dossard & thinks twice before squeezing through.

But this really just comes down to Roglič no longer wanting to be a fool in someone's grim spectacle, i.e. like a clown performing for the masses as they laugh at his failures.

Twitter erupted over this because Roglič isn't allowed a seat at the best table in the cycling hierarchy where he's given the respect he's earned. People can deny this but there's always been contempt & disrespect towards this rider, always. Since he's an outsider essentially from a small country who bypassed all the youth categories & made his own career out of nothing, he's got no real backers behind him, no support system, no journalists who have his back, nothing like the larger Anglo world rallying behind Fred Wright, zip.

So now people will insult him some more, say they've lost respect, call him names etc. but what he really wants is for fellow riders to give him respect on the road. He's not looking for people post cutesy messages about his fighting spirit & 'gentlemanly conduct' off the bike, he wants to win.

This statement to me says he's completely 1000% committed to having a better season next year & doesn't care what people say or think. As long as his team have his back.

Roglič is essentially embracing his inner Gino Mäder slayer.
Oh, you can't be serious. He's got plenty of fans. He's also had, till now at least, much and sincere admiration for the way he's handled the bitter pills swallowed, starting with dramatically losing yellow on the penultimate day of the 2020 Tour and to a younger fellow counteyman with it. Without routing for him, I've always, till now at least, given him my respect; and even now comprehend that disillusionment, frustration and dispair have caused a drop in style and messed with his mind. He's had the complete backing of his team, the best in the peleton, until he had to share leadership at the Tour with a stronger rider. But that's just business, not disrespect. Many of his fans like him precisely for his unorthodox arrival into the pro ranks, while it appears his collegues both respect and fear him for his strength. He seems to be thought of as a real hardman. Although he did once at Paris Nice take victory from a rider of mean status when he didn't have to, firmly in the race lead as he was, and could have more noblely let the fading escapee take a deserved win. Such that when he subsequently crashed, failed to catch back on and lost yellow, some did think ironic justice had been served. If, however, Roglic feels Wright had no business being there and that mere pawns need to obsequiously make way for royalty, although I'm not saying he does, but if so; well, then, he would need to get down from his high horse and show some respect for collegues. Wright is paid, like any pro, to carry out team assignments and if in the right position go for a win, exactly as he was when he made the decisive split this stage. In other words, he earned every right to contest the sprint and Roglic had no business trying foolishly to take over Wright's line. Rog simply had lost momentum after a monster pull and for his own safety and that of the others (luckily he only took himself down) should have gotten out of the way. Although as Voderke said, he must not have seen Wright, but he didn't need eyes in the back of his head, just a look around to see. Evidently he wasn't lucid, which is another reason he should have stayed left, also because by the moment of impact he would have been aware someone else had gotten Van Popple's wheel but either was too punch drunk or sinned of hubris to have better judgment.
 
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