Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Extinction]

This isn't a traffic rule. Wright wasn't squeezing. He was riding a straight line along the barriers and something came closer and closer and touched his left side.


The main question is: did anyone in the JV PR / marketing department get a concussion as well


Ofcourse they are not disputing Roglic wild claims. They stay diplomatic. JV could learn a thing or 2 with the Bahrain statement.



Well, not only for them, but for the whole of cycling it doesn't matter if Wright came from behind (again: it doesn't matter if Wright was behind or in front, try to get that for a moment: it's not downhill skiing). What does matter is that Roglic can't just do pretty much anything: he deviated from his line, and the more I think about it, the more I believe he didn't see Wright and was only focused on Van Poppel's back wheel. So he made the poor judgment that Van Poppel was last of the group and tried to slot in behind him (note that Roglic was pulling from the climb and most likely didn't have a clue how many riders where in his wheel). He just didn't see Wright (while in a video still you could see he was looking right to see where he could slot in). And that alone is a stupid mistake (one of not looking before you make a manouver). This isn't a TTT where a team mate is going to give you space to slot in. It's a line of riders starting a sprint and if they don't allow you to slot in, you go to the back. The moment Roglic deviates and tries to slot in, is the moment he's responsible for his actions and crash.

As in many cases, the outcome of the incident determines the opinion. Roglic crashed, so those supporting him, feel Wright is partly to blame. If Roglic had just a bit more stability and made Wright crash into the barriers, the outcome could have been similar to Groenewegen / Jakobsen. Those that defend Roglic here: do they also defend Groenewegen's move to the right as Jakobsen came from behind? I don't think so...


The unfortunate thing is that Roglic grabs the wrong example to make his point. The hay bale was indeed an incident where rider's safety was stupidly disregarded by the organiser. I didn't see a big statement on the JV site back then, while it was the perfect opportunity. The Colbrelli incident was a far better example of Colbrelli disregarding a fellow riders'safety. But don't throw this self-caused crash into the equation.: your 'next time back off' argument is as much as blaming the victim, which in this case is Wright, as he's a victim of a rider swerving into him and was lucky to stay upright. This really isn't about Roglic and him always getting the blame for poor riding.

I just wanna shake your hand!

 

[Extinction]

@Rackham you are correct. Roglič does not get the same respect as other GT winners. If this was some other GC guy, Wright would make way (let’s not pretend it was only Primoz who changed his line). And more importantly, Colbrelli would make way. For instance Colbrelli’s hand gestures immediately after he sent him into gravel point to complete lack of respect.

Maybe it was in this thread that someone wondered how on Earth Lance managed to survive 7 consecutive tours without any major incidents. That’s how.

What more respect should he be given? Move aside for his magesty whenever he'd like to cross the line first? It's like the tantrum Pog threw against another blameless rider when out-foxed at Liege and taken off the podium for his own tactical blunder. At least Tadej eventually came to his senses, although didn't have to also overcome the pains of a crash. And Wright didn't deviate from his line, which was between the white stripes and the barriers, where he had every right to be. To the contrary, it was Roglic, and the video makes this quite clear, who moving right from the left came across those white stripes into Wright's space. In fact fair play and physics should have given Wright the right to start opening up his sprint outwardly, with a fading Roglic simply needing to get the hell out of the way, as he was being overtaken. Instead he bullishly tried to squeeze Wright off Van Popple's wheel to his own downfall. Luckily Wright came away unscathed, because he could have been slammed into the barriers and sent off to hospital by Primoz's mindless comportment. I say this with no intention to insult Roglic, for he simply had lost his wits and clearly wasn't lucid.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

He's had enough.

A section of the cycling world is always quick to always patronize Roglič & treat him like a quaint little oddity in the cycling world. Stuff like "he's a fighter, he crashes a lot but always comes back, he's such a good sportsman" etc. always drips with a veneer of contempt.

There was no listening to his perspective & no respect after Tuesday. It was a disaster FWIW, i.e. a full season of training & preparation for the GT's completely lost. People can argue who was to blame for the crash but from my perspective a conversation should also be had regarding why Wright was even there. This wasn't a usual sprint, this was a small selection created by Rog himself. I mean when you're like a 23 year old no name, show some respect & leave the guy some space.

People will laugh at this remark (& call it arrogant), but this all comes back to the conditioning & preconceived bias people have towards Roglič, i.e. a 3x GT champion/Olympic champion with over 60 victories to his name... who gets treated like a noob who can't handle his bike & shouldn't even be contesting the sprint.

Replace Roglič with Nibali (for example) in that sprint & let's see if Wright does the same thing.

Embarrassing post.

If Roglic told you to jump off a cliff for him you would do it. 'Yes m'lord Primoz '

Maybe you are Lora Klinc or Roglic,s mother, since you are actually saying young riders shouldnt sprint against Roglic because he deserves respect. Wrightt shouldn't have been there? WTF do you want them to do, you want riders to part like the red sea to cheer Roglic to a victory? No contest victories when Roglic is racing? Embarrassing

What are you smoking

 

[bNator]

What more respect should he be given? Move aside for his magesty whenever he'd like to cross the line first? It's like the tantrum Pog threw against another blameless rider when out-foxed at Liege and taken off the podium for his own tactical blunder. At least Tadej eventually came to his senses, although didn't have to also overcome the pains of a crash. And Wright didn't deviate from his line, which was between the white stripes and the barriers, where he had every right to be. To the contrary, it was Roglic, and the video makes this quite clear, who moving right from the left came across those white stripes into Wright's space. In fact fair play and physics should have given Wright the right to start opening up his sprint outwardly, with a fading Roglic simply needing to get the hell out of the way, as he was being overtaken. Instead he bullishly tried to squeeze Wright off Van Popple's wheel to his own downfall. Luckily Wright came away unscathed, because he could have been slammed into the barriers and sent off to hospital by Primoz's mindless comportment. I say this with no intention to insult Roglic, for he simply had lost his wits and clearly wasn't lucid.

Look - it takes 2 to tango. If you don’t want to acknowledge that and keep trying to sell the “poor Wright was squeezed and did everything he could to avoid the crash” angle then I can’t help you with that. The truth is Wright was going a bit to his left as well and was firm when defending his line - firm enough for Roglic to take a fall.

Now read this next part carefully: I’m not saying he had no right to be firm and I’m not saying Roglic is right for blaming him. All I’m saying is that if there was let’s say Lance instead of Roglic there, Wright would be less firm.

Now do me a favour and spare me the populist “his majesty” propaganda next time. Peloton works in a way where everyone knows their place - the concept of “respect” isn’t something we just invented for the purpose of our agenda in this chat…

P.S. and why did you outline Pog as another example? You can see how that fits perfectly in what @Rackham was saying, right?

 

[Extinction]

Look - it takes 2 to tango. If you don’t want to acknowledge that and keep trying to sell the “poor Wright was squeezed and did everything he could to avoid the crash” angle then I can’t help you with that. The truth is Wright was going a bit to his left as well and was firm when defending his line - firm enough for Roglic to take a fall.

Now read this next part carefully: I’m not saying he had no right to be firm and I’m not saying Roglic is right for blaming him. All I’m saying is that if there was let’s say Lance instead of Roglic there, Wright would be less firm.

Now do me a favour and spare me the populist “his majesty” propaganda next time. Peloton works in a way where everyone knows their place - the concept of “respect” isn’t something we just invented for the purpose of our agenda in this chat…

P.S. and why did you outline Pog as another example? You can see how that fits perfectly in what @Rackham was saying, right?

Firstly, desist from the condescending tone. It only makes you look arrogant. Secondly, what you say and what Roglic has said would only have a case were Wright losing momentum and Roglic gaining momentum, but precisely the opposite is true. As it was, Roglic wrongfully veered into Wright's flank to get into Van Popple's slipstream. He effectively tried to force his way in and predictably, and through no fault of Wright, ended up smack on his bottom. And, I repeat, Wright had every right to start his sprint outward, he earned Van Popple's wheel, unlike Roglic. But even so he still had not come out of his lane (marked by the white stripes to his left and the uncrossable barriers on the right - so only one direction to go) at the moment Roglic touch him from arears. Naturally this makes Rog's unfortunate mistake all the more egregious. And his own lack of respect for or awareness of a colleague (until his nonsense statement came out, I thought the latter, but now am inclined towards believing the former) did himself in. As bitter as this may be to you, he only has himself to blame. Wright did absolutely nothing wrong. He had gained through merit the position Roglic bullishly thought was his by right. No, cycling is not about knowing your place if the race is on and you have behaved correctly. Yours is a condemnable and pathetic outlook on the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, let alone declaring it with vile contempt.

And pointing to Armstrong as an example to follow? Just revolting. Armstrong was a despicable bully whose behavior ended up being his downfall, when he encountered one who would not be cowered into submission. Nay, who had bigger cojones.

 

[RedheadDane]

Now read this next part carefully: I’m not saying he had no right to be firm and I’m not saying Roglic is right for blaming him. All I’m saying is that if there was let’s say Lance instead of Roglic there, Wright would be less firm.

Hasn't Armstrong's bullying tactics been pretty much documented? "A young rider would be less likely to go toe-to-toe with a bully." is not the argument you think it is.
Personally, I think it's great that the concept of "Younger riders should always be the ones showing respect to older riders" ('know their place', as you might say) is on the decline.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Embarrassing post.

If Roglic told you to jump off a cliff for him you would do it. 'Yes m'lord Primoz '

Maybe you are Lora Klinc or Roglic,s mother, since you are actually saying young riders shouldnt sprint against Roglic because he deserves respect. Wrightt shouldn't have been there? WTF do you want them to do, you want riders to part like the red sea to cheer Roglic to a victory? No contest victories when Roglic is racing? Embarrassing

What are you smoking

I personally like the "have some respect for the older statesmen", but the riders DONT SHOW ANY RESPECT NO MORE!! Valverde should have had 15 stage victories so far, but the rest of the peloton just seems to completely disrespect Valverde, racing against him, and yes, even sprinting against him?!

Like what the actual *** is going on? Please show respect for Valverde, carry him through the race, serve some stages on a platter for him to take, and most importantly, DO NOT SPRINT AGAINST HIM!

 

[Riek s]

Lets be clear, if Wright crashed due to Roglic, Roglic would have been disqualified from this stage outcome.
And there would probably be a debate between the Jury wether he would be able to continue the race or not.

That is the magnitude of an error he made. He is just lucky he was the one that crashed and not Wright. Because that is the only reason why the talk of the crash has been limited to the fanbase and not between jury and directors.

 

[Extinction]

Lets be clear, if Wright crashed due to Roglic, Roglic would have been disqualified from this stage outcome.
And there would probably be a debate between the Jury wether he would be able to continue the race or not.

That is the magnitude of an error he made. He is just lucky he was the one that crashed and not Wright. Because that is the only reason why the talk of the crash has been limited to the fanbase and not between jury and directors.

Exactly!

 

[Lequack]

I think this is all a plot to make Remco look like a more popular winner. "At least Roglic didn't win, that jerk!" people will say.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

He's had enough.

A section of the cycling world is always quick to always patronize Roglič & treat him like a quaint little oddity in the cycling world. Stuff like "he's a fighter, he crashes a lot but always comes back, he's such a good sportsman" etc. always drips with a veneer of contempt.

There was no listening to his perspective & no respect after Tuesday. It was a disaster FWIW, i.e. a full season of training & preparation for the GT's completely lost. People can argue who was to blame for the crash but from my perspective a conversation should also be had regarding why Wright was even there. This wasn't a usual sprint, this was a small selection created by Rog himself. I mean when you're like a 23 year old no name, show some respect & leave the guy some space.

People will laugh at this remark (& call it arrogant), but this all comes back to the conditioning & preconceived bias people have towards Roglič, i.e. a 3x GT champion/Olympic champion with over 60 victories to his name... who gets treated like a noob who can't handle his bike & shouldn't even be contesting the sprint.

Replace Roglič with Nibali (for example) in that sprint & let's see if Wright does the same thing.

That’s pathetic calling out someone whose been so active this season (RVV, Tour, Vuelta) a 23 year old no name.
And then in your next post you speculate he would have backed off it was Nibali. I’ll allow myself to also go into Imagination Land for a moment and speculate Nibali would have had more sense than to attempt that move.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Roglič was constantly getting bullied in the bunch. Being a GC sprinter. I always thought one of the bigger boys from his team will step up and do something about it. It really never happened. Seeing on how he now said enough is enough and went straight in the hornets nest. Stood up for himself. Here is where we draw the line. Pawing the way for younger generation of GC riders to contest the sprints. And not getting killed. I feel that riding in the bunch will not represent any real problem for him from now on.

Utmost respect.

Roglič was getting bullied in the bunch for being a
”GC sprinter“?? I‘ve never heard of Primoz being bullied. This must have been earlier in his career because surely he‘s respected now since he‘s a three-time GT winner and seems to be a great sportsman. I don‘t think this is a heroic standing up for yourself story but rather a lapse in judgement that cost him a lot. You may not believe that Roglič is human and can make mistakes but that doesn’t make it any less true.

 

[Riek s]

But in the end it i stupid, because Roglic is massively popular. He doesn't gain anything by doing this. Everyone should be aware now we live in an era where everything is taped, everything is spread. This might have worked in the 70ies, but no longer.

Its a pity they misread the situation/event so badly... I can understand Roglic perspective being the one who crashed and had to suffer the injuries/consequences while probably not understanding what happened at all (happens a lot with traumas/ sudden events. The brain constructs it own version to fill the gaps) ... But that doesn't mean JV should go with that delusion and amost encourage it.

 

[EliseeReclus]

I find this whole statement from JV and Rog completely unnecessary and unhelpful both for themselves and for the cause of rider safety in general.

For me I think Roglic probably was thinking one or a combination of three things when he made the manoeuvre:

1. He did not think Wright was there at all
2. He thought there was a larger gap than there was between Wright and Van Poppel
3. He knew there wasn't a gap but wanted to force Wright off the wheel/thought he had the right to take the wheel

Regardless of which one of these it is, he has either misjudged the composition or positioning of the four riders or has misjudged his ability to force Wright off the wheel or Wright's right and desire to hold his position.

Given what Roglic has done I think Wright could have:

1. Taken the action that he did, hold his position both in terms of the lane between the white line and the barriers and on Van Poppel's wheel and let Primoz either contact him or cede position
2. Cede his position and lose the opportunity to contest the sprint
3. Move to the right towards the barriers, attempt to hold position still and risk a crash into the barriers

I hope everyone would agree that the third option is not the correct option for him to take in any case as it is incredibly dangerous. I don't see why Wright should have to concede his ability to contest for a stage win because a GC candidate wants to force him off the wheel, for me he is entirely justified in holding his position on Van Poppel's wheel.

The argument about respect and young riders is incredibly poor as well, it implies that Roglic wouldn't have taken the action if any of the other three riders in the group had been in the position Wright was in. Wright has every right to contest the sprint in the same way that Van Poppel, Ackermann and Pedersen did. Particularly as a young rider yet to win a major race, a win in a situation like this would be huge for his career and he shouldn't be deprived of the opportunity to take a win that could be life/career changing for the sake of having to respect an older rider.

I would even go further to say that comparisons with Nibali and other GC riders about respect are completely misplaced in this instance. There is no other GC rider who in that position would have tried to contest the sprint for the bonus seconds, any other rider would've made the calculation that it's better to be conservative and bank the seconds from the time gap and not risk brushing shoulders with sprinters when they do not have the experience in sprinting. That he takes risks like this is part of what makes Roglic a compelling rider and character, but it is also part of his downfall and I don't think it's fair or justified to for him and his team shift the blame elsewhere.

I find it especially strange to see posters on this board who have advocated specifically for the GC finish line to be moved back 10km on sprint stages to stop GC riders having to mix things up with sprinters for the sake of safety, now saying that a sprinter on a sprint stage should cede his position and ability to contest a win for the sake of a GC rider taking a risk. It seems bizarre, and completely contradictory for me. I understand that Primoz is a likeable rider and his style and character can elicit an emotive response but I think it would be worthwhile to apply some consistency and show some care for other riders as well.

 

[Valv.Piti]

That’s pathetic calling out someone whose been so active this season (RVV, Tour, Vuelta) a 23 year old no name.
And then in your next post you speculate he would have backed off it was Nibali. I’ll allow myself to also go into Imagination Land for a moment and speculate Nibali would have had more sense than to attempt that move.

People like Rackham and CyclistAbi have lived in cucko-land ever since TdF. The amount of absolute nonsense I have read from them is mindboggling!

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

I think Fred Wright is an extremely talented racer, a very promising rider. He still improves, and probably will win some of the biggest races in future.

In this incident with Primoz this week, IMHO, Wright did not do anything wrong.

I think it was just a racing incident - these things happen. Primoz probably made this small mistake, and got too close to the oncoming train of - in last places - van Poppel and Wright. Sadly, then Primoz crashed hard.

I‘m glad that Wright did not crash (which could have happened easily).

Primoz and Plugge certainly still were a bit shocked, since they still had big plans for this week, and still wanted to win the Vuelta. Normally, Primoz and Plugge show big sportsmanship, and issue fair statements.

Bahrain and Wright reacted in a fair way, and just defended Wright - they are right. The crash caused some discussion this week, but all parties are professional enough to rate it fairly and properly.

Primoz very soon will adjust his focus to oncoming tasks, these are next years GTs - preparations will start still this autumn. Wright will want to use his great shape to crown his already great season 2022, and to win big in coming weeks.

Everything will be good for both parties. It happens that also true sportsmen (like Primoz) issue statements that are not completely fair. Also good people occasionally do not so smart things. Nothing happened here that could not be fixed…

 

[Fantastico]

I have no vitriol towards Wirght. He made a mistake. The vitriol we see is entirely one sided actually, i.e. it's aimed at Roglič & absolutely predates yesterday's statement. His comments here have simply given people an excuse to post what they really think.

There was no vitriol towards Roglic initially at all. Most people were sad that he had to leave the race instead of putting up a fight against Evenepoel in the final days, while also stating that it was his own fault. It was Roglic himself who caused the vitriol by publishing this absurd statement and blaming Wright a few days after the crash. It's okay to make some unthoughtful statements in the heat of the moment right after such incident, and I believe that in such case way less people would have condemned Roglic for that, but to come up with such a weird take a few days later you really shouldn't be suprised about some backlash.

 

[Red Rick]

Okay boys time for a couple of piss takes

1. Roglic knows the third week parcours is ass, and decided he would commit to still create drama for the Vuelta.
2. LRCP advised Jumbo to do this just so they could publicly disagree and pretend to be impartial.
3. Jumbo just extended Sven Kramers contract as a consultant, who is well known for taking the wrong lane.

 

[SHAD0W93]

P.S. On a more serious note. On why we needed to have this talk. It's not the last time Roglič will contest the sprint. This is just something the bunch will need to accept and to deal with it. He is now one of the big boys.

And if Roglic keeps riding into other riders he will be the big boy on the ground again and again. This most be how Shannon Sharpe feels.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Where is a clear video of the crash ? Nothing being shown on SBS in Australia but they seem to agree Roglic rode sideways into Wright and did it himself.

There are three angles that show the crash and all point to Roglic riding into Wright after Weight passed him without touching Roglic or deviating from his line. The front view shows Roglic swinging from the left side of the rode to the right. The side view shows Roglic’s right elbow and handlebar crashing into the back of Wright’s elbow which caused the crash and Wright not barging through. If he had Roglic would have started falling sooner and his elbow would have been ahead of Wright’s. The rear view showing Roglic and Wright riding side by side, Wright pulling ahead of Roglic, and Roglic leaving his line and hitting the back of Wright’s elbow. All three videos together show Roglic is at fault.

 

[bNator]

Firstly, desist from the condescending tone. It only makes you look arrogant. Secondly, what you say and what Roglic has said would only have a case were Wright losing momentum and Roglic gaining momentum, but precisely the opposite is true. As it was, Roglic wrongfully veered into Wright's flank to get into Van Popple's slipstream. He effectively tried to force his way in and predictably, and through no fault of Wright, ended up smack on his bottom. And, I repeat, Wright had every right to start his sprint outward, he earned Van Popple's wheel, unlike Roglic. But even so he still had not come out of his lane (marked by the white stripes to his left and the uncrossable barriers on the right - so only one direction to go) at the moment Roglic touch him from arears. Naturally this makes Rog's unfortunate mistake all the more egregious. And his own lack of respect for or awareness of a colleague (until his nonsense statement came out, I thought the latter, but now am inclined towards believing the former) did himself in. As bitter as this may be to you, he only has himself to blame. Wright did absolutely nothing wrong. He had gained through merit the position Roglic bullishly thought was his by right. No, cycling is not about knowing your place if the race is on and you have behaved correctly. Yours is a condemnable and pathetic outlook on the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, let alone declaring it with vile contempt.

And pointing to Armstrong as an example to follow? Just revolting. Armstrong was a despicable bully whose behavior ended up being his downfall, when he encountered one who would not be cowered into submission. Nay, who had bigger cojones.

You don’t need to worry how I look. I have never been ashamed of myself and an internet troll is certainly not about to change that. You should be ashamed of yourself for kicking a man when he’s down and suggesting he should get sued on top of that. We are done.

 

[SHAD0W93]

People can argue who was to blame for the crash but from my perspective a conversation should also be had regarding why Wright was even there. This wasn't a usual sprint, this was a small selection created by Rog himself. I mean when you're like a 23 year old no name, show some respect & leave the guy some space.

Wright was there because Roglic couldn’t drop him. So all the members of the group should have just let Roglic win the stage? Wright did leave Roglic space. Roglic decided to leave his line and go where there wasn’t any. I mean when you’re like a 32 year old Olympic, Grand Tour, and monument champion who has experience sprinting in a small group would know not to deviate from his line and crash himself into a rider that passed him.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Okay boys time for a couple of piss takes

1. Roglic knows the third week parcours is ass, and decided he would commit to still create drama for the Vuelta.
2. LRCP advised Jumbo to do this just so they could publicly disagree and pretend to be impartial.
3. Jumbo just extended Sven Kramers contract as a consultant, who is well known for taking the wrong lane.

And so it begins

 

[Miha81]

Rogla was swinging right, Fred was swinging left. Collision occured. Fred is Wright so Rogla must be Wrong

I see this as a racing incident and still do not understand why Rogla was swinging there with sprinters. I guess he overlooked Fred and am baffled why this should be Fred's fault.

I hope TJV and Rogla will come to their senses and apologize for their statement. No need for this argument to go for ages and shaddow Rogla's past and future accomplishments.

 

[Jagartrott]

The last 10 or so pages should become compulsary reading material in any psychology course. I find it completely, er, fascinating how some people's mind seem to work. This is (confirmation bias x cognitive dissonance)^2. They invent new cycling rules just to have something that can make them agree with their idol's assertion, e.g. young riders should make way for GC winners in a sprint for victory. In this case, that would have meant Wright should either have braked full or thrown himself into the barriers to allow Roglic to take Wright's line and position. Wild stuff.