Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[KZD]

Pogacar sits on wheels all day and attacks in the final 2k: yes! The Tour de France is saved by the amazingly attacking rider Pogacar!

Roglic sits on a wheel for a while in a 60 k duo attack, cooperates and then goes solo from 8 kms out: boring wheelsucker.

I have never said Roglič is a boring wheelsucker just that he is not the most offensive of riders...

Also Pogačar attacked from far out on Jaizkibel and Jeux Plane and I don‘t think that I need to talk about the classics, do I?

@IndianCyclist I very much doubt Roglič will win a minute in sprints, he may be fast but Remco and Ayuso are also fast and even Vingegård is not slouch either. I don't think he will be easily dropped though.

 

[cen]

He must race economically because most of his GT wins and podiums are on the limit, if he was fooling around with long range attacks he migh overextend himself and then pay the price.

 

[samhocking]

He must race economically because most of his GT wins and podiums are on the limit, if he was fooling around with long range attacks he migh overextend himself and then pay the price.

I just meant he races economically like a sprinter, because he has a great ability to sprint those last 50m up a climb when everyone is on or over the limit. I'm not saying that's his only way of gaining time, but for La Vuelta the time bonuses have always been what he seems to focus his energy on more than most riders do.

 

[bNator]

I have never said Roglič is a boring wheelsucker just that he is not the most offensive of riders...

Also Pogačar attacked from far out on Jaizkibel and Jeux Plane and I don‘t think that I need to talk about the classics, do I?

@IndianCyclist I very much doubt Roglič will win a minute in sprints, he may be fast but Remco and Ayuso are also fast and even Vingegård is not slouch either. I don't think he will be easily dropped though.

Vingegaard no slouch? He could be better than Roglič at this point! He is consistenlty second only to Pog in mountain sprints and in some cases he is even looking like he could endanger him. This year for instance, he beat Pog twice in TDF sprints. I am rating Vingegaard way above Remco or Ayuso when it comes to mountain sprints...

 

[theyoungest]

I have never said Roglič is a boring wheelsucker just that he is not the most offensive of riders...

Also Pogačar attacked from far out on Jaizkibel and Jeux Plane and I don‘t think that I need to talk about the classics, do I?

@IndianCyclist I very much doubt Roglič will win a minute in sprints, he may be fast but Remco and Ayuso are also fast and even Vingegård is not slouch either. I don't think he will be easily dropped though.

Roglic is offensive when he has to be. Just like Pogacar is. And just like every rider who races to their strengths.

I agree that the last few years we haven't seen him attack that much, and mainly follow wheels. Maybe because he is in decline, maybe because he has never been fully fit, who knows. He is naturally better at explosive efforts than endurance.

Vingegaard no slouch? He could be better than Roglič at this point! He is consistenlty second only to Pog in mountain sprints and in some cases he is even looking like he could endanger him. This year for instance, he beat Pog twice in TDF sprints. I am rating Vingegaard way above Remco or Ayuso when it comes to mountain sprints...

I don't know if Roglic and Vingegaard will do sprints against each other though. You'll probably see Vingegaard do the leadouts for Roglic, like he did in Dauphiné last year.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Vingegaard no slouch? He could be better than Roglič at this point! He is consistenlty second only to Pog in mountain sprints and in some cases he is even looking like he could endanger him. This year for instance, he beat Pog once in TDF sprints. I am rating Vingegaard way above Remco or Ayuso when it comes to mountain sprints...

Once out of how many and there’s the motogate side of it too.
But Vinge can be dangerous on an uphill drag if in shape, I think Roglic still has the better sprint uphill. Vinge’s sprint compared to others is just being the better climber.

 

[Extinction]

I just meant he races economically like a sprinter, because he has a great ability to sprint those last 50m up a climb when everyone is on or over the limit. I'm not saying that's his only way of gaining time, but for La Vuelta the time bonuses have always been what he seems to focus his energy on more than most riders do.

I'd like to advance a modest proposal: eliminate time bonuses on mountain top finishes. It doesn't reflect actual strengths. It doesn't encourage attacks. It falsifies GC, etc. Now, I know you Roglic fans think this Is anathema, but I can role with that. But real racing is won on real racing, not time bonuses. It enhances the video game effect or card games. And don't tell me cycling is poker!

 

[Rackham]

I'd like to advance a modest proposal: eliminate time bonuses on mountain top finishes. It doesn't reflect actual strengths. It doesn't encourage attacks. It falsifies GC, etc. Now, I know you Roglic fans think this Is anathema, but I can role with that. But real racing is won on real racing, not time bonuses. It enhances the video game effect or card games. And don't tell me cycling is poker!

Time bonuses for riders like Roglič & Pogačar are a double edged sword, i.e. for every successful MTF sprint, there's loads more stages where the rest of the peloton sits up & lets a breakaway get an unassailable advantage on that day because they know the mountain sprint is a lost cause. Like Pog recently on the Grand Colombier stage of the TdF where he used his UAE teammates & still couldn't close the gap. So yes, Rog & Pog are the best mountain sprinters among the GC guys & yes, this has worked well for them in the past (& will continue to do so), but it can also be a tactical cul-de-sac because their rivals say "you can spend your domestiques chasing for the stage because we don't care".

 

[Extinction]

Time bonuses for riders like Roglič & Pogačar are a double edged sword, i.e. for every successful MTF sprint, there's loads more stages where the rest of the peloton sits up & lets a breakaway get an unassailable advantage on that day because they know the mountain sprint is a lost cause. Like Pog recently on the Grand Colombier stage of the TdF where he used his UAE teammates & still couldn't close the gap. So yes, Rog & Pog are the best mountain sprinters among the GC guys & yes, this has worked well for them in the past (& will continue to do so), but it can also be a tactical cul-de-sac because their rivals say "you can spend your domestiques chasing for the stage because we don't care".

Yea, but "letting" a break go has a chronological reason. You can't race to close every gap in the economy of a stage race. Hence, the non-factors are given a leash amongst everybody fighting for GT. If there were no time bonuses, little would change. Or if Rog and Pog deem reeling them in for the time bonuses is more profitable, then that's on them and their teams, at their own risk. The point is that they are racing to gain bonuses, not gaps, thus time they would not actually have gained on the road. I'd simply prefer time gained be on the road. Real time, not board game rules.

 

[samhocking]

I agree, I'm not a fan of the time bonuses. If we look at the last Vuelta Roglic won in 2020 and 2021 he found around 45s in bonuses. A rider like Mas or Remco typically 15s so finds half a minute just in the sprints to the line. Half a minute is hard to find on the road alone, although the TT & TTT finds significantly more of course, but that is a race of no lies, it's pure team ability so deserved imo.

 

[theyoungest]

I agree, I'm not a fan of the time bonuses. If we look at the last Vuelta Roglic won in 2020 and 2021 he found around 45s in bonuses. A rider like Mas or Remco typically 15s so finds half a minute just in the sprints to the line. Half a minute is hard to find on the road alone, although the TT & TTT finds significantly more of course, but that is a race of no lies, it's pure team ability so deserved imo.

Let's not pretend Roglic needs bonus seconds to win. In the Giro he gathered a grand total of 6 bonus seconds. Over the whole race.

 

[svit]

Every GT overall contender rider have advantages and disadvantages regarding other GT contenders. Remco rely his hopes of winning this year Vuelta on ITT, Pog and Rog chases bonus seconds, Vingegaard loves long mountain stages above 2000m... Should we cancel those type of stages as well?

 

[zlev11]

Why would he drop Bernal on the flat?

lmao yeah i feel like im in the friggin twilight zone with these guys. they have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to get their "Roglic is a boring rider" theory to work.

 

[zlev11]

Its still different because Roglič was, at least initially, reactive not active. Plus, although he risked a lot that day (and to me his move made sense because Bernal had won the Giro that year and the Tour two years before so he was still a threat), he would have risked more if he had started to work before or if he had dropped Bernal earlier.

it's only different in your head. it was basically a two rider attack. there was nowhere to drop Bernal until the final climb and even then it would've been stupid to get rid of a rider who was happy to work with him. this has now turned into "why doesn't Roglic ride like a moron more often?"

 

[Riek s]

Every GT overall contender rider have advantages and disadvantages regarding other GT contenders. Remco rely his hopes of winning this year Vuelta on ITT, Pog and Rog chases bonus seconds, Vingegaard loves long mountain stages above 2000m... Should we cancel those type of stages as well?

Isn't that a bit different? you are talking about a not doing a complete stage compared to getting additional seconds on intermediate/finish in some stages. Don't think the previous posters are against a ramp , flat, HC, downhill finish. The question posed was if there need to be boni seconds for finishing first in some of the stages? (one can argue why they aren't consistent with the boni seconds as well.).
Winning already gives you points, prestige and the time you put the others behind you.

We have seen more battles as well due to boni seconds, especially intermediate ones. So for the viewers it can work as a plus as well.

 

[KZD]

it's only different in your head. it was basically a two rider attack. there was nowhere to drop Bernal until the final climb and even then it would've been stupid to get rid of a rider who was happy to work with him. this has now turned into "why doesn't Roglic ride like a moron more often?"

No, it was a Bernal attack with Roglič following him and then cooperating and eventually dropping Bernal. Its clearly different to a solo long range attack like Van der Poel's on Tirreno 2021, to give an example.

Plus, I am not saying Roglič rode badly that day just that it wasn't a crazy attack which makes sense because Roglič is not usually an offensive rider.

 

[Blanco]

Vingegaard no slouch? He could be better than Roglič at this point! He is consistenlty second only to Pog in mountain sprints and in some cases he is even looking like he could endanger him. This year for instance, he beat Pog twice in TDF sprints. I am rating Vingegaard way above Remco or Ayuso when it comes to mountain sprints...

No, he's still the slowest of the four. Remco is very fast these days.

 

[theyoungest]

No, he's still the slowest of the four. Remco is very fast these days.

That we don't know. We haven't seen Remco sprint against Pogi yet, who's probably the fastest of them all.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Let's not pretend Roglic needs bonus seconds to win. In the Giro he gathered a grand total of 6 bonus seconds. Over the whole race.

But he did need them to win the 2020 Vuelta.

 

[Extinction]

Let's not pretend Roglic needs bonus seconds to win. In the Giro he gathered a grand total of 6 bonus seconds. Over the whole race.

That was the Giro, after Covid. The Vuelta, with his own teammate as potentially stronger, shall be an entirely different matter. With the way he races, he'll need all the bonus seconds he can get.

 

[bNator]

Let’s make one thing clear: Everyone wants/needs bonus seconds. Another question is - can they get them? Just because Rogla is very efficient at getting them doesn’t mean he needs them more. It’s not a question of necessity but rather than that - it’s a question of ability.

 

[bajbar]

Roglič simply knows his strenghts and weaknesess and races accordingly. He knows he has a good kick to the line but on the other hand he cannot keep a gap and extend it the way Vinge does on a MTF. That is why we very rarely see him attack from far out - the only one that comes to mind is Paris Nice 2021 on that first hill-top finish where he won. But he was insanely better than the competition there. He also tried in 2022 in P-N but got caught. So he mostly tries to stick to the first group, spend as little energy as possible and bet on his sprint. He will never be a Vingegaard/Contador/Froome type of rider who blows everyone out of the water 6km to go on a MTF and wins by a minute or two, But because of the way he races he also almost never gets dropped when he is in top form.

Also, the harder the stage before the last climb the worse it is for Roglič. This is why the Vuelta is the best for him with a gazzilion Unipuertos and Giro is the worst GT for him with multiple consecutive 5000m mountain stages.

 

[Extinction]

Let’s make one thing clear: Everyone wants/needs bonus seconds. Another question is - can they get them? Just because Rogla is very efficient at getting them doesn’t mean he needs them more. It’s not a question of necessity but rather than that - it’s a question of ability.

Sorry, but it's a rule, a made up concoction, not a necessity. I don't like the premise, given all else is awarded by actual time gaps. Who made up this rule? Ability nets stage wins, but that should not come with a gift in seconds, especially when it doesn't on all stages. And I say this in premise, not based on anyone's ability.

 

[Netserk]

Roglič simply knows his strenghts and weaknesess and races accordingly. He knows he has a good kick to the line but on the other hand he cannot keep a gap and extend it the way Vinge does on a MTF.

I think it's more that when he is able to do so, it is not necessary for him to do so. He will almost always have a bigger edge in the final punch and often in the TTs as well, and then it's simply the path of least resistance to the overall victory to defend on climbs. His only miscalculation was the 2020 Tour, and I was also critical of his riding style in that race. That was the only stage race he has lost because of how he rode it, and so he has almost won all stage races he has done since 2018.

 

[Gargamel35]

Jumbo presented the team for Vuelta. Roglič in second place again and Vinge first.