Bonimenier
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That's possible. It just seems underhanded to publicly say you had a great heart-to-heart conversation when the victim in this case doesn't really agree with that.
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Maybe he honestly felt like he apologised, but it just didn't come out right...
This is just a *** situation. There is no doubt that Groenewegen did feel guilty... yet it seems they might have completely spoken past each other.
There's a difference though between feeling some diffused guilt and really owning up to your mistakes...
(I don't want to judge too much here, I'm not such a great person either, but I think Jakobsen deserves a serious, personal apology, whether heart-felt or not.)
(I don't want to judge too much here, I'm not such a great person either, but I think Jakobsen deserves a serious, personal apology, whether heart-felt or not.)
I didn't understand if they had the meeting with both legal teams present or not. If they had the lawyers present, maybe that's why Dylan didn't want to take the guilt and apologise.
I find it hard to believe that Dylan thinks he's not at fault. He didn't do it on purpose, but it were his actions that provoked the accident.
I get the feeling that the legal teams are making things worse for the healing process between the two of them.
I find it hard to believe that Dylan thinks he's not at fault. He didn't do it on purpose, but it were his actions that provoked the accident.
I get the feeling that the legal teams are making things worse for the healing process between the two of them.
I just went and checked. The (CN) article doesn't actually mention anything about apologising, just that they "unburdened their hearts".
There was clearly a breakdown in communication here, both it terms of the level at which the meeting should be kept private, and in terms of whether the "unburdening of hearts" truly felt like an apology, for Jakobsen.
That's what I've been saying! It's a lot easier to own up to your mistakes when it's all at a distance, than it is when you're faced directly with the consequences of your actions. Especially, I guess, when the consequences are etched onto the face of another person. A person who - to quote the commentators at Algarve - "looks rather different now".
There was clearly a breakdown in communication here, both it terms of the level at which the meeting should be kept private, and in terms of whether the "unburdening of hearts" truly felt like an apology, for Jakobsen.
That's what I've been saying! It's a lot easier to own up to your mistakes when it's all at a distance, than it is when you're faced directly with the consequences of your actions. Especially, I guess, when the consequences are etched onto the face of another person. A person who - to quote the commentators at Algarve - "looks rather different now".
Even vaguely implying you're all square when you haven't said that to each other in private seems like a *** move to me.
Yeah it was absolutely not his place to speak on these matters. That Jakobsen made the effort to correct this suggests to me that it wasn't a simple misunderstanding either. You are probably not going to outright correct a minor difference in what was actually said. I wonder how much this may all come to bite him in the ass when he races in the peloton again.
I think I remember reading stories suggesting that Demare sometimes got screwed over because other cyclists did not like how he won MSR by hanging on to cars.
I think I remember reading stories suggesting that Demare sometimes got screwed over because other cyclists did not like how he won MSR by hanging on to cars.
I did find Fabio's comments somewhat surprisingly "direct", but on the other hand, i also got the impression by Groenewegen's comments earlier, that they'd basically wiped the slate and I wrongfully assumed he would have apologized. So i can definitely understand why Fabio would react like that if that's not the case. I mean, people are quick to say Dylan paid the price, and he's been punished enough... but Fabio has to live with a broken face for the rest of his life. He doesn't get to walk away from this. So for Fabio getting hate, that's a huge big lollercoaster. Next we know, he'll be the aggressor and Dylan will be the victim. On Wielerflits the Dutch comments already have shifted towards "poor Dylan, getting verbally assaulted by Lefevere and his lawyers" because obviously Fabio can not possibly have anything to complain about, hence this could not possibly be Fabio's doing, it has to be Lefevere that's behind it or the lawyers. What actually happened has taken a backseat to what has now become a DQT vs TJV face-off, and that's a fight Fabio can't win, at least not for the home crowd. So if those comments on the CN article are mainly Dutch readers, it's not surprising.
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But what if Groenewegen geniunely thought that the apology was implicit in the "unburdening of hearts"? The problem is, Jakobsen needed to hear it directly. Those three words; "I am sorry!" (Except, in Dutch. So it might be more words.)
Well... if Jakobsen at any point during the next three weeks expresses a wish to have another meeting with Groenewegen immediately, then Groenewegen needs to leave the Giro.
This is ugly.
I don't like the public annihilation of Groenewegen's character on Twitter in front of the entire world, which is what Jakobsen has just done.
It automatically makes it both personal & public, whilst also causing division, i.e. turning an already unfortunate & dramatic incident pretty much into a public feud where even fans will now disagree & argue with each other over the matter.
Just read comments on L'Equipe where users are now opening the floodgates on insults towards Groenewegen (calling him all the names they can think of). I can't see how this is helpful at all. Especially the timing, i.e. just before Groenewegen races again in the Giro.
I don't like the public annihilation of Groenewegen's character on Twitter in front of the entire world, which is what Jakobsen has just done.
It automatically makes it both personal & public, whilst also causing division, i.e. turning an already unfortunate & dramatic incident pretty much into a public feud where even fans will now disagree & argue with each other over the matter.
Just read comments on L'Equipe where users are now opening the floodgates on insults towards Groenewegen (calling him all the names they can think of). I can't see how this is helpful at all. Especially the timing, i.e. just before Groenewegen races again in the Giro.
I'm not sure I would call it public annihilation of Groenewegen's character. Just Jakobsen making it clear that he did NOT get the same thing out of the meeting as Groenewegen did. A meeting which, as far as Jakobsen was concerned, was never supposed to have been known about to the wider public. Unfortunately, it seems Groenewegen treated it more like a court-session being held behind closed doors; where everyone knows that the meeting happened, just not exactly what transpired.
I think an annihilation of Groenewegen's character would be if Jakobsen had made it sound like he thought Groenewegen did it on purpose, and obviously that isn't the case. I don't think Jakobsen is the kind of person who would think that.
Jakobsen was fully within his rights to make it clear that everyone knows that he meant for the meeting to be completely secret, and that Groenewegen has not yet apologised in the way he (Jakobsen) needs to hear.
I think an annihilation of Groenewegen's character would be if Jakobsen had made it sound like he thought Groenewegen did it on purpose, and obviously that isn't the case. I don't think Jakobsen is the kind of person who would think that.
Jakobsen was fully within his rights to make it clear that everyone knows that he meant for the meeting to be completely secret, and that Groenewegen has not yet apologised in the way he (Jakobsen) needs to hear.
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To me, it seems like Groenewegen wanted to lower the pressure on himself before his return to the peloton and the spotlights, by coming out with a story where it seems he and Jakobsen have turned the page. There was no need for this, he did this for the benefit of himself mostly, and now his move backfired. I cannot feel sorry for him.
And that begs the question; why didn't he just stick to the original plan, and ride Hongrie?
The timing of Jakobsen's comment wasn't ideal, but it was the timing he needed. I don't think he sat down like; "Now I'm gonna make this post just before Dylan is going to ride the Giro, so that everybody will be super-mad at him!"
What? Jakobsen can dictate who rides which races now? No way.
He said he was disappointed that Groenewegen had spoken about the contents of their private situation which wasn't the case.
He said he was disappointed that Groenewegen mentioned the conversation at all. We - the public - didn't even need to know that they had the conversation in the first place.
I think maybe the best thing the media can do now is to not interview Groenewegen before the stages at all. Both to keep the pressure off him, and also because, well... I suppose it might sting a little bit for Jakobsen to see Groenewegen ride the Giro, especially considered that he (Jakobsen) was supposed to have had his debut there last year!
That's not how the media works...
And he said that the content of the meeting (not its existence) was supposed to stay confidential and Groenewegen has not divulged any of the content so I think it's a very odd move by Jakobsen. Also, the language in his Tweets make it quite obvious that it's a lawyer who has written them, I think.
Personally i feel that Jumbo and Groenewegen have started a very big PR campaign in the Netherlands where Groenewegen is portrayed as another victim in the whole case.
Groenewegen is literally everywhere, in every newspaper and even on national television in one of the biggest talkshows.
The first idea was that Groenewegen would come back at a lower level generating as little attention as possible. This would have been good for Jakobsen as well.
However at some point Jumbo has decided to throw Groenewegen into the Giro Squad anyway. And with that came a charm offensive in Dutch media to get some positive media attention for Groenewegen shortly before his comeback. I think this is a very bad move looking at the needs of the actual victim Jakobsen. And it doesnt suit Jumbo that they have done this in the way they did.
Groenewegen is literally everywhere, in every newspaper and even on national television in one of the biggest talkshows.
The first idea was that Groenewegen would come back at a lower level generating as little attention as possible. This would have been good for Jakobsen as well.
However at some point Jumbo has decided to throw Groenewegen into the Giro Squad anyway. And with that came a charm offensive in Dutch media to get some positive media attention for Groenewegen shortly before his comeback. I think this is a very bad move looking at the needs of the actual victim Jakobsen. And it doesnt suit Jumbo that they have done this in the way they did.
It's just a bit weird to expect apologies from someone in a room with 2 lawyers especially if that person has been demonised and wrongfully accused of all kinds of things. It really backfired and i think it's purely a product of the vile rivalry that always surrounds Patrick Lefevre and his wolfpack.
I fear they know his carreer is over though because this sure feels like a desperate move.
I fear they know his carreer is over though because this sure feels like a desperate move.
Wow, that really is victim blaming and turning the truth.
Yes, I'm sure, Groenewegen has his own share of hurt here, but nonetheless it wasn't just an unfortunate event. He is responsible for Jakobsen's pain and trauma (as much as for his own). He accepted that something like that could happen, like a drunk driver who doesn't mean to kill someone, but when he does, he's responsible.
Forget the lawyers. If I was responsible for something like that I wouldn't be able to sleep until I at least did everything I could to own up to this. I would call, go to the house on my own, try to get a conversation, tell the guy how incredibly sorry I am, not just that it happened, but that I am responsible for that, that I made the biggest mistake. I wouldn't just tell him once.
If I was able to race again myself, which, admittedly, I probably wouldn't, I wouldn't go to talk-shows and so on. I would race and otherwise be as quiet as possible.
(It's not about the face. The face looks much much better than I would have expected. But losing all your teeth, having problems to eat, to speak, operations again and again and again... This is so hurtful.)
If my apology has legal consequences in that I am accepting guilt with it and my life will be deeply affected by my actions, than that is the way it is.
Groenewegen apologism started about 5 minutes after it became clear Jakobsen wasn't dying, and I think the way Dutch media have portrayed everything has been nothing short of a disgrace.
I agree with you. It's quite clear that in the Netherlands Groenewegen and Jumbo are public hero's who can't do much wrong.
On the other hand Jakobsen is kind of a victim, but he rides for the most hated team Deceuninck, so he should definitely not complain too much about almost dying or potentially losing most of his income. At the moment Jakobsen is getting a very high number of negative responses from Dutch people, which clearly show the lack of empathy that many people have these days.
But I agree with you that the media is definitely partially to blame for this because of the way that have portrayed this entire incident. In recent days it almost feels as if Groenewegen was a bigger victim than Jakobsen, which is just absolutely ridiculous.
I'll repost his Tweet:
i.e. Jakobsen is pretty crystal clear here: he's telling the entire world A/Groenewegen hasn't apologized to him & B/he has not taken responsibility for his actions. He's painting Groenewegen as an a**hole. Which might work for him & people who don't like Dylan, but there's a line where this stuff goes too far & people who had natural sympathy for Jokobsen could also believe this sort of public shaming of Groenewegen is unfair & uncalled for.
Essentially by going public with his grievances, this just escalated to an unfortunate level for all concerned.
What if Groenewegen genuinely believed the meeting between both of them had cleared the air a little? (at least from his perspective). We have no idea & we certainly can't (& should not) presume anything regarding Groenewegen's intentions with his prior statement about the meeting.
It's (as a I said) unfortunate because now we get a whole bunch of people on social media (& everyone knows how this works) burning Groenewegen at a stake this morning based on Jakobsen's Tweets.
But why does Groenewegen have to go on record at all against all the media about his feelings after the conversation if they agreed not to do that in the first place?
All Groenewegen and Jumbo should try to do is think about what is best for the actual victim of Groenewegen previous behavior at the moment. And the best thing would have been to -re-enter into the peloton with as less attention as would have been possible. Instead they decided that Groenewegen should feature in some national tv-show to publicly announce that the air was more or less cleared between the victim and the offender. A feeling that is quite obviously not shared by the victim.
Groenewegen and Jumbo should lay low when it comes to this incident. But instead they chose to start some kind of media offensive to get some positive publicity around Groenewegen while Fabio Jakobsen is still very unsure whether he can get back to his old level. Of course that creates bad vibes with Jakobsen.
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