fantasy doping draft

[ciranda]

Raimondas Rumšas (Lithuania) Tour de France 2002 is my fifth rider. Rumšas was a devastating presence for the Mroz team (operated sort of like CCC does now) in all kinds of smaller races but had to wait till he was 28 to get to the top level w Giancarlo Ferrettis Fassa Bortolo in the year 2000. He wasted no time to win the Giro di Lombardia and Vuelta al Pais Vasco + fifth place finish in the Vuelta but Ferretti found him too selfish so he had to go to Lampre for his third place in the TDF. Sadly that was the last (almost, he finished sixth in 2003 Giro) the world got to see of this superb allrounder who could do everything really really well and who will have chances in hard medio mountain stages for my team.

SPOILER: undrafted cyclist in this picture

 

[Tonton]

Nice pick ciranda. You pick next to begin round 6.

Libertine Seguros - Miguel Indurain ('95 Tour), Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta), Joseba Beloki ('01 Tour), José María Jiménez ('98 Vuelta), Fernando Escartin ('99 Tour)
The Hitch - Lance Armstrong ('04 Tour), Michael Rasmussen ('07 Tour), Nairo Quintana ('13 Tour), Vincenzo Nibali ('14 Tour), Andy Schleck ('09 Tour)
The Sceptic - Jan Ullrich ('97 Tour), Santi Pérez ('04 Vuelta), Chris Horner ('13 Vuelta), Aitor Gonzalez ('02 Vuelta), Mario Cipollini ('02 Giro)
The Green Monkey - Alberto Contador ('09 Tour), Ivan Gotti ('97 Giro), Alex Zülle ('95 Tour), Emanuele Sella ('08 Giro), Cadel Evans ('07 Tour),
zlev11 - Marco Pantani ('99 Giro), Floyd Landis ('06 Tour), Riccardo Ricco ('08 Tour), Iban Mayo ('03 Tour), Laurent Dufaux ('96 Tour)
burning - Bjarne Riis ('96 Tour), Richard Virenque ('97 Tour), Gilberto Simoni ('03 Giro), Bradley Wiggins ('12 Tour), Luc Leblanc ('94 Tour)
Netserk - Ivan Basso ('06 Giro), Piotr Ugrumov ('94 Tour), Pavel Tonkov ('98 Giro), Andreas Klöden ('06 Tour), Fabian Cancellara ('10 Tour)
Zam Olyas - Gianni Bugno ('90 Giro), Tony Rominger ('95 Giro), Denis Menchov ('09 Giro), Claudio Chiappucci ('92 Tour), Djamolidine Abdoujaparov ('93 Tour)
Tonton - Evgeni Berzin ('94 Giro), Chris Froome ('13 Tour), Alexander Vinokourov ('03 Tour), Alejandro Valverde ('09 Vuelta), Abraham Olano ('98 Vuelta)
ciranda - Roberto Heras ('04 Vuelta), Tyler Hamilton ('03 Tour ), Frank Vandenbroucke ('99 Vuelta), Joachim Rodriguez ('12 Vuelta), Raimondas Rumsas ('02 Tour)

Pick 51: ciranda -
Pick 52: Tonton -
Pick 53: - Zam_Olyas -
Pick 54: Netserk -
Pick 55: burning -
Pick 56: zlev11 -
Pick 57: TheGreenMonkey -
Pick 58: The Sceptic -
Pick 59: The Hitch -
Pick 60: Libertine Seguros -

 

[Netserk]

I have three riders I'm considering for my next pick. I think one of them will be picked before it's my turn, but I hope one of them will be overlooked, so that I will be able to get two of them.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

I perhaps would have selected Olano ahead of Evans, probably should have, but Evans is my favorite rider so I went that way. Olano was the one GT winner I mention earlier that I was still thinking of picking, I don't think I will pick one now unless my other options are taken.

 

[Netserk]

One of the three I have in mind is a GT winner. I also have another GT winner as a wild card, though I'm not sure he would fit in to my team.

 

[ciranda]

Well. I can toss a coin to choose one of three riders with the same first name or I could go with maybe my all time favorite cyclist. What do you guys think?

Oh and I came across this when I looked for pictures of Rumsas: http://444.hu/assets/pantani_16.jpg

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Well. I can toss a coin to choose one of three riders with the same first name or I could go with maybe my all time favorite cyclist. What do you guys think?

Oh and I came across this when I looked for pictures of Rumsas: http://444.hu/assets/pantani_16.jpg

Cool pic. For the pick, I would go with your favorite rider. Otherwise, it's going to hurt when burning picks him

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I perhaps would have selected Olano ahead of Evans, probably should have, but Evans is my favorite rider so I went that way. Olano was the one GT winner I mention earlier that I was still thinking of picking, I don't think I will pick one now unless my other options are taken.

Kudos on having Evans as your favourite rider but acknowledging the fact that he (like everyone else at the top at the time) doped. The forum was for a long time heavily polluted by the most annoying and unintelligent of Evans fans, who insisted not only that Evans was clean, but that he was the single clean rider in the sport and that anyone who didn't support him was anti clean cycling.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I perhaps would have selected Olano ahead of Evans, probably should have, but Evans is my favorite rider so I went that way. Olano was the one GT winner I mention earlier that I was still thinking of picking, I don't think I will pick one now unless my other options are taken.

Kudos on having Evans as your favourite rider but acknowledging the fact that he (like everyone else at the top at the time) doped. The forum was for a long time heavily polluted by the most annoying and unintelligent of Evans fans, who insisted not only that Evans was clean, but that he was the single clean rider in the sport and that anyone who didn't support him was anti clean cycling.

I may be wrong, but I put Cuddles in the category of riders who wish they could have competed clean, never went full ***, and as such is more likable than Bertie, Piti, and others. His portrait in "Not Normal" is inconclusive, and I had to read posts on this forum to get off the fence: he doped.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re: Re:

I perhaps would have selected Olano ahead of Evans, probably should have, but Evans is my favorite rider so I went that way. Olano was the one GT winner I mention earlier that I was still thinking of picking, I don't think I will pick one now unless my other options are taken.

Kudos on having Evans as your favourite rider but acknowledging the fact that he (like everyone else at the top at the time) doped. The forum was for a long time heavily polluted by the most annoying and unintelligent of Evans fans, who insisted not only that Evans was clean, but that he was the single clean rider in the sport and that anyone who didn't support him was anti clean cycling.

I just cannot see how he could have got so close in 2007 clean. Winning in 2011 is a bit more believable although the final time trial is suspicious, brilliant one just when he most needed it. It would require Evans to be the best ever by a margin to have been able to do what he did clean and I don't think he was that.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't know where people get the idea that a guy who smashed the likes of (wont name rider) and (wont name rider) in the mountains was holding back. Very few people are as talented/ good responders as Contador or Piti. As this draft shows. The vast majority of people who doped aren't even being considered. That's because the vast majority of people when they dope are still not that good. Plenty of guys took all the drugs they could find and still were slower than Evans. Evans made it to the top top few %. And btw he was way better than Piti at gts anyway. So I don't know how people think they can tell Evans wasn't doping that much.

Anyway why would you dope but only a little. Some moral code? Why would you dope at all then?

 

[Tonton]

Re:

I don't know where people get the idea that a guy who smashed the likes of (wont name rider) and (wont name rider) in the mountains was holding back. Very few people are as talented/ good responders as Contador or Piti. As this draft shows. The vast majority of people who doped aren't even being considered. That's because the vast majority of people when they dope are still not that good. Plenty of guys took all the drugs they could find and still were slower than Evans. Evans made it to the top top few %. And btw he was way better than Piti at gts anyway. So I don't know how people think they can tell Evans wasn't doping that much.

Anyway why would you dope but only a little. Some moral code? Why would you dope at all then?

Hey, I still believe there's chance Virenque was clean post-suspension . I think it has a lot to do with liking the guy versus putting feelings aside and being objective. In another thread, there was a comment about hypocrisy, how difficult it is to admit deep inside that what we saw was just an illusion. I my case, I have been addicted to cycling since I watched the final stage of the '75 TdF with my grand father. Obviously you have the ability to put feelings and nostalgia aside and look at cold hard facts. I must admit: I try hard but I can't. At least I recognize it...

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Anyway why would you dope but only a little. Some moral code? Why would you dope at all then?

Clearly most people didn't dope as hard as [notorious late bloomer and Virenque's buddy], so there must be a reason, whether it's moral, medical or whimsical.

 

[ciranda]

[notorious late bloomer and Virenque's buddy].

I hope he's still around for my last pick, will be invaluable as organizer and to take the blame in case of raids

 

[mrhender]

Re:

I don't know where people get the idea that a guy who smashed the likes of (wont name rider) and (wont name rider) in the mountains was holding back. Very few people are as talented/ good responders as Contador or Piti. As this draft shows. The vast majority of people who doped aren't even being considered. That's because the vast majority of people when they dope are still not that good. Plenty of guys took all the drugs they could find and still were slower than Evans. Evans made it to the top top few %. And btw he was way better than Piti at gts anyway. So I don't know how people think they can tell Evans wasn't doping that much.

Anyway why would you dope but only a little. Some moral code? Why would you dope at all then?

The bolded is my emphasis..

Now this analogy might not be perfect but I heard of a survey in which 70% or so admitted they stole from their work place... What they stole were pencils and minor items and (almost) evryone did that and the risk of being fired was very little... In the survey they also admitted that what they did was in fact stealing but they did not consider themselves thiefs or dishonest per se... Some workers however systematizize stealing or dishonest methods (lying to customers/employer etc.) to gain a much bigger advantage in their working field and the (minor thiefs considered that dishonest and risky)

Some remain at the petty theft stage and others do more... People are different and so is their perceived morals so why should doping be any different...

The analogy may be fitting with doping small-medium just to keep up..
And when (almost) everyone does it it is not cheating per se..

So psychological factors as well as a risk assesment might be cause to not going full ***..

I think plenty of dopers are not running on a full program because:

1. they can better justify the doping psychologically
2. The risk of using full *** methods is (in theory) way bigger

By this I have no intention of saying Evans only used a couple of minor effective methods.
Just responding in general terms to the bolded...

 

[Tonton]

Agree. And some flirt on dating websites, see prostitutes, get a b-job, convince themselves that they didn't really cheat by not going all the way...
BTW, is Basso's sister single?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Anyway why would you dope but only a little. Some moral code? Why would you dope at all then?

Risk has a lot to do with it. Health risk and worry: One rider might be worried about AICAR, and another won't. Or, EPO but no blood bags. Or, FG4592 instead of injecting EPO...etc.

But, also risk of getting caught. 2011 saw the worlds best get popped. Maybe Evans realized that re-injecting some old glowing blood was a possibility he hadn't considered before, and too much of a risk (if someone is going with a clean-er 2011).

To the point, he won the TDF, seemingly less doped than he was 2007 (really only power meter numbers, I guess). He didn't need to go to 2007 levels to be the best. Why risk?

 

[Netserk]

Or he doped just as much, but was older and past his peak. Or he went full *** just like in '07, but couldn't get away with as much because of the passport.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

No no no no, post-Ferrari Olano is not a good choice! He climbed a lot better in the 1996 Giro, and probably in the 1996 Tour as well.

You may be right. I didn't follow the 1996 Giro - that's when I moved from Europe to the US. My Olano memories were '95 and '98, both impressive ITT years, and that's really what I'm drafting him for.

I liked the 99 Vuelta Olano as well. 5th on the Angliru with a broken rib. Probably would have found a way to crumble somewhere, but was 2 minutes ahead of the eventual winner after stage 8.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

No no no no, post-Ferrari Olano is not a good choice! He climbed a lot better in the 1996 Giro, and probably in the 1996 Tour as well.

You may be right. I didn't follow the 1996 Giro - that's when I moved from Europe to the US. My Olano memories were '95 and '98, both impressive ITT years, and that's really what I'm drafting him for.

I liked the 99 Vuelta Olano as well. 5th on the Angliru with a broken rib. Probably would have found a way to crumble somewhere, but was 2 minutes ahead of the eventual winner after stage 8.

99 Vuelta Olano seemed to me like the strongest Olano.
In fact, the whole Vuelta up to that broken rib he was so strong he seemed to be toying with a star studded field. He never came close to that in 95 or 96. Ullrich inherited the win solely on account of that rib.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

The willingness to take a risk is one reason I thought of as to why a rider might dope more or less than others.

Another reason might be the quality of advice, skill of those making the doping program. Some doping doctors might have been more prepared to push riders further with the doping programs than others, some might have been able to design programs that gave more performance boost than other doctors.

Some riders might simply have been able to afford a top quality doping program while others could not and did not get the same boost from what they could afford.

 

[observer]

Evans doped as much as he could have to stay fast, healthy and not get caught. The reason why he seems clean is his personality. He seems to have completely isolated himself for most of his career, rarely says much, even as a TDF winner. The isolation makes him seem less brazen. He did it well, completely private, probably from a doctor the rest of us haven't heard of.

I believe it when he says he only started down the course with dr ferrari, and it was probably because there would have been too much focus otherwise. he may be quiet, but he was careful.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

No no no no, post-Ferrari Olano is not a good choice! He climbed a lot better in the 1996 Giro, and probably in the 1996 Tour as well.

You may be right. I didn't follow the 1996 Giro - that's when I moved from Europe to the US. My Olano memories were '95 and '98, both impressive ITT years, and that's really what I'm drafting him for.

I liked the 99 Vuelta Olano as well. 5th on the Angliru with a broken rib. Probably would have found a way to crumble somewhere, but was 2 minutes ahead of the eventual winner after stage 8.

99 Vuelta Olano seemed to me like the strongest Olano.
In fact, the whole Vuelta up to that broken rib he was so strong he seemed to be toying with a star studded field. He never came close to that in 95 or 96. Ullrich inherited the win solely on account of that rib.

I don't disagree about the '99 Vuelta. In this draft, he's my TTT and domestique guy and what is convenient with the Vuelta, while still respecting the rules of the thread, is that Vuelta and WC are so close to each other that you can bundle up. I liked '95, the only guy anywhere close to BigMig at the ITT WC, winning all three ITTs at the Vuelta. But at the '98 Vuelta he won the main ITT, lost the last one by a second, and in the meantime faced a lot of adversity, including internal/Banesto/Jimenez. And won the ITT WC.

In my team he's not the leader. Now, as hrotha brought up, his '96 Giro was great, but he didn't win the ITT. My leader, not at his best, did .

 

[Zam_Olyas]

ciranda, you can pick now...while we are young eh!

 

[ciranda]

Okay I choose Dario Frigo next. Although he did have great victories this choice is one where potential and class and style matter more than actual results. In the times before RoboBasso many lightweight italians challenged in the Giro d'Italia but Frigo was the one who looked like he could go far in the TDF too.

I don't know exactly why, I just really really liked him. Maybe because it was soon after I really started watching that Frigo was super strong help for maglia rosa Ivan Gotti in a stage with heavy rain in the Giro. After that he had two years with crashes and injuries and was then picked for the new Fassa Bortolo by manager Giancarlo Ferretti. First year there he was around the elite group in the mountains in the GdI but it was not until the 2001 Giro that he really showed what he was about. He had the pink jersey since early in the race and won the one hour+ time trial to Saló. But Gilberto Simoni was at a crazy level (like one minute better than Olano and ******** in that time trial level) and it would have been hard/impossible for Frigo to win anyway even if the raid in Sanremo by the NAS had never happened.

Frigo was back the following year and won a nice stage victory in the stage to Chianale in the Giro 2003. As a cyclist he was kind of similar to prerobo Ivan Basso (less strong in high mountains maybe but better in time trials) but peak condition Frigo could also attack very hard and decide races. Among other races he won Paris-Nice, Tour de Romandie two times (as mentioned a race for the most gifted), Setmana Catalana, stages in Giro and Tour, GP Zurich in crazy bad weather and even Subida a Urkiola. Also great in interviews, as his favorite book Frigo chose The Count of Monte Cristo and his favorite races were mountain time trials because they were all about 'fare male a se stesso fino in fondo'.

So my sixth rider is Dario Frigo (Italy) in the 2001 Giro d'Italia.