First EPO users in the peloton?

[acoggan]

This article summarizes views as of circa 1980.
http://www.la84foundation.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1982/ore172/ORE172n.pdf

-zoetemelk transfusion before 1976 and medical reasons for it.
- not everybody convinced of effectiveness and reasons why. This a view that to me seemed prevalent for a long time among physiologist. I mentioned it on another(?) thread, but Andy Coggan disputed that view.

Disputed what view?

FWIW, research examining the effects of autologous blood transfusion showed equivocal results prior to the introduction of the high glycerol storage method. It was only after this method became available that RBCs could be legally (in N. America)/safely stored long enough for an individual to regenerate the blood that was withdrawn, so that the reinfusion actually resulted in a significant increase in total red cell mass (volume). Studies performed after that time (starting with Larry Spriet's work) clearly showed a benefit.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Enough said. I know that some forists (Including me) go overboard on the doping by association theory, but if your trainer in Ferrari that says it all.

Especially if your crit was 39% pre-Ferrari and 58% after...

 

[Le breton]

This article summarizes views as of circa 1980.
http://www.la84foundation.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1982/ore172/ORE172n.pdf

-zoetemelk transfusion before 1976 and medical reasons for it.
- not everybody convinced of effectiveness and reasons why. This a view that to me seemed prevalent for a long time among physiologist. I mentioned it on another(?) thread, but Andy Coggan disputed that view.

- Drs aware of dangers of procedure, might explain they didn't jump on it all at once.
I'll come back on that important article if/when I find the time.

Disputed what view?

.

Sorry I was in a hurry and not sufficiently clear.
I would like to come back to the subject I had in mind but won't have time now or in the next 2 weeks. I'll try to remember...

 

[acoggan]

A graduate student of mine just turned in a paper reviewing blood doping in endurance sports. Their research turned up the following interesting (to me, anyway) fact: the first scientific study of blood doping was published in 1947. Thus, the idea seems to go back even further than the 1970s (Viren) or even the 1960s (Anquetil).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A graduate student of mine just turned in a paper reviewing blood doping in endurance sports. Their research turned up the following interesting (to me, anyway) fact: the first scientific study of blood doping was published in 1947. Thus, the idea seems to go back even further than the 1970s (Viren) or even the 1960s (Anquetil).

I think your student is cheating -and is only spending time on this thread.(Jk)

"Pace et al" 1947 - was mentioned in a post by 131313, about 15 pages ago. It was mentioned in a linked piece called "Blood Doping - a literature review" from 1988.

 

[acoggan]

I think your student is cheating -and is only spending time on this thread.(Jk)

"Pace et al" 1947 - was mentioned in a post by 131313, about 15 pages ago. It was mentioned in a linked piece called "Blood Doping - a literature review" from 1988.

Okay, so it was news only to me...shows you just how much attention I pay to doping and/or doping-related issues!

To mend the error of my ways I just went and read the original paper - turns out they cite an even earlier study of the hypoxic exercise tolerance of rats in which polycythemia was induced via cobalt ingestion.

 

[Gregga]

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :

1988 : Rooks, Theunisse
1989 : Indurain (first victory in a mountain stage of TdF), Breukink (astonishing prologue)
1990 : Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala, Argentin, Giovanetti, Dhaenens, Van Lancker
1991 : Chioccioli, Lelli, Mauri
1992 : Furlan, Rominger,
1993 : Fondriest, etc.

After 1992, general EPO use, very few clean victories...
One can see the "epo move" from Holland to Spain via Italy, from PDM to Ariostea and Banesto. First french teams in 1993 (Festina).

So many stolen podiums...

 

[simoni]

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :

1988 : Rooks, Theunisse
1989 : Indurain (first victory in a mountain stage of TdF), Breukink (astonishing prologue)
1990 : Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala, Argentin, Giovanetti, Dhaenens, Van Lancker
1991 : Chioccioli, Lelli, Mauri
1992 : Furlan, Rominger,
1993 : Fondriest, etc.

After 1992, general EPO use, very few clean victories...
One can see the "epo move" from Holland to Spain via Italy, from PDM to Ariostea and Banesto. First french teams in 1993 (Festina).

So many stolen podiums...

Worth considering the "surprise" results around that time.

e.g. 1993 - Mejia, Jaskula, Riis in TDF. Obviously Chiappucci earlier than that as you note.

Ariostea ripping it up in '91 (was it three stages on the bounce?)

PDM with ridiculous strength in depth in '90/91. We know they were using something in '88 (GJT testosterone penalty) as well as Delagado that year but the understanding is that everyone was at that point.

I thought it was pretty well documented that Festina got on it for '94 after a team meeting at the end of the previous year. Certainly they improved massively in '94 although still the possibility that some of their riders were going it alone before then.

Its usually pretty obvious who has something to hide from things they've said since. There's no doubt in my mind about Roche and Rominger - certainly from circa '90 onwards.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Wasn't Moser said to be the first one to use some very early form of Epo?

 

[blutto]

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :

1988 : Rooks, Theunisse
1989 : Indurain (first victory in a mountain stage of TdF), Breukink (astonishing prologue)
1990 : Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala, Argentin, Giovanetti, Dhaenens, Van Lancker
1991 : Chioccioli, Lelli, Mauri
1992 : Furlan, Rominger,
1993 : Fondriest, etc.

After 1992, general EPO use, very few clean victories...
One can see the "epo move" from Holland to Spain via Italy, from PDM to Ariostea and Banesto. First french teams in 1993 (Festina).

So many stolen podiums...

....kinda curious where you think Rooks and Theunisse would have gotten EPO since it wasn't available officially until early 89....

Cheers

blutto

 

[jamiephillips]

Wasn't Moser said to be the first one to use some very early form of Epo?

Well he had the right associates!!

 

[Escarabajo]

Wasn't Moser said to be the first one to use some very early form of Epo?

EPO not blood doping.

In the 1980s, Adamson, Joseph W. Eschbach, Joan C. Egrie, Michael R. Downing and Jeffrey K. Browne conducted a clinical trial at the Northwest Kidney Centers for a synthetic form of the hormone, Epogen produced by Amgen. The trial was successful, and the results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine in January 1987.[41]

In 1985, Lin et al. isolated the human erythropoietin gene from a genomic phage library and were able to characterize it for research and production.[42] Their research demonstrated that the gene for erythropoietin encoded the production of EPO in mammalian cells that is biologically active in vitro and in vivo. The industrial production of recombinant human erythropoietin (RhEpo) for treating anemia patients would begin soon after.

In 1989, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone, called Epogen, which remains in use today.

 

[Race Radio]

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :

1988 : Rooks, Theunisse
1989 : Indurain (first victory in a mountain stage of TdF), Breukink (astonishing prologue)
1990 : Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala, Argentin, Giovanetti, Dhaenens, Van Lancker
1991 : Chioccioli, Lelli, Mauri
1992 : Furlan, Rominger,
1993 : Fondriest, etc.

After 1992, general EPO use, very few clean victories...
One can see the "epo move" from Holland to Spain via Italy, from PDM to Ariostea and Banesto. First french teams in 1993 (Festina).

So many stolen podiums...

Rooks did not use in 1988. In his book he said he started using it when his career went downhill and Gewiss was lighting up every race. That would have been 1994. I have not seen anything that says Theussen used in 88. Indurain's stage win in 1989 came via a break, he did not ride everyone off his wheel. He was dropped on most of the climbs

 

[Dave_1]

Is it true that Bugno nearly died in his hotel room in 1992 after taking a shot of EPO before he went to sleep?

I think Bugno's serious decline from Grand tour dominance was the 1992 Tour De France. Bugno in 1990 Giro and 1991 TDF was very good..far better than he was in say the 1989 Tour de France..and his drop in form in the 1992 TDF where he was lucky to end up third (but far off form of previous two seasons climbing form) suggests he stopped messing with EPO in 1992. His 1993 TDF merely confirms 1992 was a decline related to something. Bugno's 1994 Giro was weak compared to what we were used to from him..8th? He did win 1994 Tour of Flanders but regarding EPO.. was it not more a drug for the grand tours of 3 weeks..??

Bugno would always have been a good cyclist without EPO but nowhere near as great as he became for 2 years. Mottet was clean and could not hold a candle to him at 1989 TDF yet Mottet was a great Grand tour rider with stong 1987 and 1989 TDF GC performances. I wish Bugno would spill the beans

Re Bobrik, he led Tour Du Pont in 1990 age 19 I think and won Giro Lombardia 1994. He vanished very young from sport. I remember lining up to race with him and he was sniffing a flower of some kind on start line..very weird chap

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hello, first of all as I'm new here, took me about a week to get approval to join this forum but here we are...

Read a lot on this forum, mainly in the Clinic section because thats the most interesting thing about cycling nowadays, from the Conconi era that is.

Forgive me my sometimes bad grammar, I'm no native English speaker.

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :

1988 : Rooks, Theunisse.

Very well possible, especially for Theunisse. Rooks always was a big talent off course. That whole PDM team was suspicious to the bone, Jan Gisbers was being called the biggest 'gifmenger' [dutch for alchemist, wizard] even by mister omerta Hein Verbruggen way back in 1991. One of their riders died very young - Johannes Draaier -, another rider quit with accute heart problems, Rudy Dhaenens, World Champion 1990 and second that year at the UCI ranking after being no more than a water/bidon boy.
Not to mention Danny Nelissen who also had to quit because of 'heart problems'.

Note, almost all of the staff of PDM went on to Festina.

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :
1989 : Indurain (first victory in a mountain stage of TdF), Breukink (astonishing prologue)

Breukink was a huge talent at the famous Peter Post team, coming only second behind Hampsten at the Giro in 1988, third in 1987, fourth in 1989. In 1989 he still was with Post/Panasonic, not a team historicly known for EPO. I don't agree for Indurain in 1989.

I found this topic after discussing with a friend about first epo users.
We quite agreed on this short list :
1990 : Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala, Argentin, Giovanetti, Dhaenens, Van Lancker.

Spot on, thats the year a lot got the juice. Some more than the others. Carrera - Ariostea etc etc etc.

Mind you, Giovannetti, winner of the Vuelta 1990, was working with Conconi at the Los Angelos Olympics, doing blood doping just as Moser.

I always wondered in those days how a bidon boy such as Chiapucci went on to become second in the Tour behind my all time cycling hero. It didn't add up to me. He hung on in the mountains where as Steve Bauer dropped?

In my opinion 1990 was the breaking point, other teams saw what whas possible with the use of EPO and got in as well. But, mind you, it's not just about the Italians. Matthieu Hermans of the Netherlands admitted he used in the Tour of 1989, he was quoted saying 'u know who our doctor was'.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/playing-god-eufemiano-fuentes
He rode/drove? for Caja Rural...

In a way we can't be sure untill one confesses. I was always convinced the EPO began in 1994 with Gewiss but nowadays I must say it almost traces back to 1987.

It doesn't bother me that much but when I saw riders like Lemond being dropped by TT'ers like Indurain/Bugno I then a days - pardon my grammar/language - in the mountain stages I really thought something was wrong. Nowadays we have the internet to do our own research but in those days I was astoinished. When I now know Indurain had a V02max of 88 vs a V02max of 92-93 of Lemond u need a quit good phycisian to explain how Lemond got dropped like an amateur those days. Maybe we need to ask Padilla - Conconi?

The Grand Tours have been robbed from at least 1991 till 1997, when the 50% rule was introduced. Who was one of the first to be caught? Right, the mistereous number two of 1990...

 

[Anti-doping]

Use of EPO started in 86/87

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story"..

 

[Escarabajo]

Hello, first of all as I'm new here, took me about a week to get approval to join this forum but here we are...

...

It doesn't bother me that much but when I saw riders like Lemond being dropped by TT'ers like Indurain/Bugno I then a days - pardon my grammar/language - in the mountain stages I really thought something was wrong. Nowadays we have the internet to do our own research but in those days I was astoinished. When I now know Indurain had a V02max of 88 vs a V02max of 92-93 of Lemond u need a quit good phycisian to explain how Lemond got dropped like an amateur those days. Maybe we need to ask Padilla - Conconi?

The Grand Tours have been robbed from at least 1991 till 1997, when the 50% rule was introduced. Who was one of the first to be caught? Right, the mistereous number two of 1990...

But Robbed from who? Maybe a handful but we would never know if any of these "clean" riders was a true winner or champion of the Tour.

Going by VO2 max to compare riders is rather confusing IMO. Depends on how, when it was measured. Besides VO2 max only tells part of the story. And remember that 88 is not bad at all.

Having said that I think Indurain was on EPO but in my opinion he started in 1991. To me the pioneers for the GT's were Chiappucci and Bugno in 1990 and 1991.

Chiappucci will always stay in my mind because I started creating hope in my mind for riders with lower potential in the mountains that they could learn to climb. He was the first one that I saw. For some reason back in those days people, commentators, coaches knew who was who because of tests, so they knew who to expect to be in the small group of select riders in the mountains. They were always the same from day one. Statistically speaking it makes sense. But after Chiappucci came into the scene all those assumptions changed.

 

[Race Radio]

Use of EPO started in 86/87

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story"..

.......Link?

 

[Polish]

Use of EPO started in 86/87

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story"..

I believe that Greg truly thought is was "B-12". He said he even checked the hypo needle bottle to make sure it was "B-12". Of course, how hard would it be for the doctor to label it sneakily? Not hard. But if Greg believed and says it was "B-12" - that is certainly good enough for me. Not cheating.

What disappoints me,however, is that the riders of the late 80's early 90's did not do a better job of raising the flag at ther time. Sure, there was Kimmage. And he even had cred back then. Buy who else? My heart breaks for the young neo-pros just staring out in the early 90's

BTW, does anyone know why Greg checked the label? Did he ever say what dope he was checking for? What were they illegally injecting back then? And did Kimmage ever mention EPO in "Rough Ride". Sorry, have not read it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

.......Link?

Good to see the interns actually in a thread that doesn't have HWSNBN's name in the title.

 

[DirtyWorks]

According to the article, Conconi didn't really start doping riders until 1993, and the Italians seemed to be the first to really figure out how to do it.

I doubt the first guys in the late 80's were really getting the full benefit, since the protocols weren't established and they were being used as test subjects.

I read a couple of pages through and didn't find a Francesco Moser reference. Conconi administered EPO to Pros as an experiment with Ferrari as an assistant according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

As RaceRadio mentioned early on, I recall reading reports of young riders dying of heart attacks in pre-Internet Velonews in the late 80's. Maybe they were Dutch? http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=311045&postcount=14

And then I found this post which fits my recollections well. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=851051&postcount=264

 

[DirtyWorks]

What disappoints me,however, is that the riders of the late 80's early 90's did not do a better job of raising the flag at ther time. Sure, there was Kimmage. And he even had cred back then. Buy who else? My heart breaks for the young neo-pros just staring out in the early 90's

BTW, does anyone know why Greg checked the label? Did he ever say what dope he was checking for? What were they illegally injecting back then? And did Kimmage ever mention EPO in "Rough Ride". Sorry, have not read it.

Because riders were being injected with all kinds of stuff.

Chris Carmichael and Rene Wenzel were injecting the U.S. development team with drugs. Take the injection or leave the team. Some of whom were minors at the time. A few got sick and sued. Greg Strock is the name most commonly associated with the case, but there was at least one other. Carmichael bought his way out of Strock's civil case. All of that was in the U.S. A cycling backwater if there ever was one.

Mandatory doping program. Experimenting on humans with drugs. Does any of that sound familiar? Your mancrush was in Carmichael's mandatory doping program for years.

 

[mikeNphilly]

RR has inside info that the first person was Lance Armstrong, details to follow on Tuesday!!

 

[Polish]

Because riders were being injected with all kinds of stuff.

Chris Carmichael and Rene Wenzel were injecting the U.S. development team with drugs. Take the injection or leave the team. Some of whom were minors at the time. A few got sick and sued. Greg Strock is the name most commonly associated with the case, but there was at least one other. Carmichael bought his way out of Strock's civil case. All of that was in the U.S. A cycling backwater if there ever was one.

Mandatory doping program. Experimenting on humans with drugs. Does any of that sound familiar? Your mancrush was in Carmichael's mandatory doping program for years.

But what kind of "stuff" were the Euro Pros injecting back when Greg recieved his shot. That was the on topic question. My "mancrush" rider does not belong in this thread. Does not belong in this thread for a couple of reasons at least. Remember, he was rocking aero bars as an amatuer when EPO entered the Pro Peloton.

Stay on topic. Anyway, who had the biggest bodonkadonk/glutes in the Pro Peloton back when the EPO era kicked in? And could climb in the GT's too. That seems to be an indicator of EPO use back in the early days. Big Butts.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Use of EPO started in 86/87

No way it started in 1986, the Amgen paper on erythropoietin was published in January 1987.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198701083160203

Maybe u can refer those researchers to anyone in the peloton? Or do you think Lemond was a gunea pig for Amgen:
http://boingboing.net/2010/07/21/the-2-billion-error.html

Read: they patented it december 1983

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story"..

Lemond was a natural rider, as in possible. I have thought a lot of this and other accusations but I am still convinced he was one of 'the eighties boys', as in amfetamines and those drugs. I believe he was known for bringing creatine but EPO and blooddoping? He was good, I even remember him from '82 on, when I even didn't care for cycling that much, from the Worlds.

No, I don't think he was one of the EPO boys. I am pretty damned sure of it too. The speed of the EPO era was never achieved by 'the eighties boys'.

But Robbed from who? Maybe a handful but we would never know if any of these "clean" riders was a true winner or champion of the Tour.

First of all, I don't think there a clean riders. You cannot ride 3599 plus kilometres in 3 weeks on a sandwich an water. Come on.

When I think of 'clean' riders of the 90'ties I think of guys like Hampsten, Mottet, Robert Millar [the silly man], Meijia, those kinda guys. After 1994 everyone was sure on the extra red blood cells.

Going by VO2 max to compare riders is rather confusing IMO. Depends on how, when it was measured. Besides VO2 max only tells part of the story. And remember that 88 is not bad at all.

Off course, 88 is great but still 4 or 5 less then Greg Lemond if we have to believe the statistics. Then how come Lemond is dropped from 1991 on like an amateur? When for instance Lance Armstrong has a VO2max of presumably 82 who rides like a Bjarne Riiis pace on the hills?

Having said that I think Indurain was on EPO but in my opinion he started in 1991. To me the pioneers for the GT's were Chiappucci and Bugno in 1990 and 1991.

I'm pretty sure too Indurain was quick 'on the market'.

Chiappucci will always stay in my mind because I started creating hope in my mind for riders with lower potential in the mountains that they could learn to climb. He was the first one that I saw. For some reason back in those days people, commentators, coaches knew who was who because of tests, so they knew who to expect to be in the small group of select riders in the mountains. They were always the same from day one. Statistically speaking it makes sense. But after Chiappucci came into the scene all those assumptions changed.

In 1990 I also wanted to believe it was possible, when you later see his palmares you know better. Good riders are good when they are young, the Bjarne Riises etc etc are the magicians, kinda like Diablo.

Those magician doctors really ****ed up the sport. I still love to watch but has every rider the same medical assistance? As in, is there a level playing field?