Floyd to be charged with fraud

[MarkvW]

It's time U sued your government then.

It's just about semantics.

When I understood it correctly it is just the question if Landis set up this fund, if so he is in trouble, if not he is scott free, or how do you say this in English?

If Mister X set up the fund, with Landis' encouragement, and if Landice encouraged him with the intent to further the fraudulent purpose of the fund, then Landis would be on the hook just like Mister X.

Or if Landis acted to aid the fund, with the intent to help the fund defraud people, Landis would also be on the hook.

 

[Epicycle]

Floyd won't be indicted. There was no fraud. The money was used for the purpose he specified: his defense. Floyd didn't even control the money. Whether or not he was actually innocent to the underlying charges is irrelevant. Besides it was called the Floyd Fairness Fund, not the Floyd Innocence Fund. Also, given that the website no longer exists and the exact wording on the site are not likely to be resurrected, where's the direct link to any specific wording of fraud...and explain to me how Floyd is responsible for it given he is going to claim he never had anything to do with the website? Floyd is not responsible for whoever wrote what they did on the website. I'm sure the AUSA will realize his case is not what it seems once he looks into all these issues. Seems like a young AUSA who is just trying to make a name for himself since (a) he is a licensed cyclist and (b) how come Floyd wasn't indicted 5 years ago?

Yeah I tend to agree, except for maybe the people who paid $500 for the autographed "Winning Fair and Square" posters:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070430032117/http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/store.php

Of course that speaks to what your definition of fair and square is when it comes to cycling.

The rest of the FFF site does generally back up the claim that he was fighting against unsubstantiated claims and an unfair process instead of assertively declaring innocence but I'm sure if somebody really wanted to they could find interviews or forum posts he made or FFF event videos where Floyd claimed he didn't dope. I know he said it under oath at his USADA hearing.

The main reason I'd guess this turns out bad for Floyd is simply because of the bad mojo that seems to surround him, everything he touches cycling-related winds up crashing and burning. But maybe his luck changes this time.

 

[Digger]

LOL so what? The new clinic rally cry: HE DIDN'T HAVE THE CHECK BOOK!!! HE DIDN'T HAVE THE CHECKBOOK!

Are you capable of anything that doesn't involve a strawman argument - and you wonder why you get banned...

 

[MarkvW]

Yeah I tend to agree, except for maybe the people who paid $500 for the autographed "Winning Fair and Square" posters:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070430032117/http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/store.php

Of course that speaks to what your definition of fair and square is when it comes to cycling.

The rest of the FFF site does generally back up the claim that he was fighting against unsubstantiated claims and an unfair process instead of assertively declaring innocence but I'm sure if somebody really wanted to they could find interviews or forum posts he made or FFF event videos where Floyd claimed he didn't dope. I know he said it under oath at his USADA hearing.

The main reason I'd guess this turns out bad for Floyd is simply because of the bad mojo that seems to surround him, everything he touches cycling-related winds up crashing and burning. But maybe his luck changes this time.

I agree. Just what Floyd said and wrote to induce people to contribute to the Fund is vitally important, as well as what Floyd knew about what other Fund participants were saying.

If it was all about contributing to fight for a fair process, it's looking good for Floyd. If it was about giving money to vindicate the clean athlete, it's looking bad.

 

[Digger]

I agree. Just what Floyd said and wrote to induce people to contribute to the Fund is vitally important, as well as what Floyd knew about what other Fund participants were saying.

If it was all about contributing to fight for a fair process, it's looking good for Floyd. If it was about giving money to vindicate the clean athlete, it's looking bad.

Mark i genuinely have a question here and it's in the context of Floyd. Why are you so dogmatic on Floyd, yet no where near like that with others. And no, not just Lance. Take Tyler for example.
Whilst I would disagree with you, I could in someway respect where you were coming from if you were consistent.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If Mister X set up the fund, with Landis' encouragement, and if Landice encouraged him with the intent to further the fraudulent purpose of the fund, then Landis would be on the hook just like Mister X.

Or if Landis acted to aid the fund, with the intent to help the fund defraud people, Landis would also be on the hook.

Off course. But if the feds couldn't prove the doping at USPS how will they prove this fraud? If there was a fraud to begin with.

Isn't it all just coinciding with Landis' confession last year? It's just an administrative charge which will slumber for a few years and will be thrown out of court for lack of evidence? So the authorities can say 'Look, we did our best but couldn't make it stick'?

Yeah I tend to agree, except for maybe the people who paid $500 for the autographed "Winning Fair and Square" posters:

To be real honest, who in the world would buy that kinda stuff? Really, that stuff would make Bernie Madoff blush hahahaha. The US banking system missed a great opportunity there imo

 

[BotanyBay]

Oh wait sorry - it was a 'limited confession' he should have given.

Yet Botany is saying he still hasn't said enough.

Jesus.

You're so friggin starved for some humilty on the part of these narcissists, that you're willing to eat a mere drop of disclosure and consider yourself obese from an oversupply of truth.

I wish you had higher expectations of your fellow man.

 

[BotanyBay]

Obviously you did not read the full interview Kimmage did with Landis - amongst other points that you don't seem to know:

I read it. And I think that Landis has told the part of the story he wants to tell, and he's not willing to own up to the greater depths of his involvement.

Ask Papp. It's not easy coming fully clean.

And what's so obvious? He sits down one day with one guy and it's all over with? He was dirty dirty dirty, except for the one month that he decided to "do it clean" and he had the misfortune of winning the TDF?

 

[MarkvW]

Off course. But if the feds couldn't prove the doping at USPS how will they prove this fraud? If there was a fraud to begin with.

Isn't it all just coinciding with Landis' confession last year? It's just an administrative charge which will slumber for a few years and will be thrown out of court for lack of evidence? So the authorities can say 'Look, we did our best but couldn't make it stick'?To be real honest, who in the world would buy that kinda stuff? Really, that stuff would make Bernie Madoff blush hahahaha. The US banking system missed a great opportunity there imo

The feds only indict if they mean it. Floyd's hope is that they don't seek indictment.

Floyd's case is a lot different from Lance's. Age is one big difference. Floyd's monumentally damaging admissions are another. Apples and oranges, it seems to me.

 

[Digger]

I read it. And I think that Landis has told the part of the story he wants to tell, and he's not willing to own up to the greater depths of his involvement.

Ask Papp. It's not easy coming fully clean.

And what's so obvious? He sits down one day with one guy and it's all over with? He was dirty dirty dirty, except for the one month that he decided to "do it clean" and he had the misfortune of winning the TDF?

Give an example of what you think he hasn't said then.


By the way you clearly haven't read it - he admits to blood doping DURING the tour. He discussed it with Perreiro - they were both going to do a refill prior to the final TT.
Hate him all you want, but get your facts straight.

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

Instead of all this silly speculation (on both sides), I would like to hear the views of people that actually work in this field.
Was it a crime?
Could he go to trial?
What's the chance of conviction?
What's the range of "bad things" that might happen to him......(Probation.....short time...longer time) ???????
.
.
.

 

[Digger]

The feds only indict if they mean it. Floyd's hope is that they don't seek indictment.

Floyd's case is a lot different from Lance's. Age is one big difference. Floyd's monumentally damaging admissions are another. Apples and oranges, it seems to me.

Yes one had friends in high places, the other not so much...

 

[MarkvW]

Mark i genuinely have a question here and it's in the context of Floyd. Why are you so dogmatic on Floyd, yet no where near like that with others. And no, not just Lance. Take Tyler for example.
Whilst I would disagree with you, I could in someway respect where you were coming from if you were consistent.

For me, Floyd has a debt he still has to pay. It's not about doping, for me--it is about stealing. When Floyd acts accountable for his actions instead of just talking accountable, then I'm cool with Floyd.

Until 60 Minutes, Tyler was lower than anything for me. Now, I don't know how much more he can do. He's certainly not profited from his lies. I'm cool with him.

Armstrong sits in his own particular pile of filth. Dirtbag beat the rap, what more to say? Wish only bad things for Lance.

Pro cycling is dirty. The whole system is built around either doping or supporting dopers. It is a filthy circus. No great love for any of 'em. LeMond was a demigod, though.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The feds only indict if they mean it. Floyd's hope is that they don't seek indictment.

Floyd's case is a lot different from Lance's. Age is one big difference. Floyd's monumentally damaging admissions are another. Apples and oranges, it seems to me.

No apples and oranges. Both riders had a positive test, Armstrong may have had four positives in his career, all have been wiped away. Since he was riding under the flag of the US Government, US Postal is a Government buisiness or how do you name it, so he frauded the US citizens too. The feds couldn't make that sick, off course, this fish is too big. They couldn't get the shark but can they take the little fish?

My point is the case is quite simular, only Landis is much easier to catch. Is it worth the trouble? What if Landis gets convicted and another USPS rider spills his guts? Maybe it's all a scam, sir Lance is a powerfull man these days, maybe even the new Schwarzenegger...

I couldn't care less when proven Landis misled people for money and gets convicted for it. If he knew what that fund was doing and why? His problem.

But I always find it somehow funny when people cross sir Lance's paths they somehow get ****ed in the ***, pardon my language. Landis/Lemond/Contador. Don't mess with the Boss.

Note: there is only one Boss, mr Springsteen off course.

 

[Digger]

For me, Floyd has a debt he still has to pay. It's not about doping, for me--it is about stealing. When Floyd acts accountable for his actions instead of just talking accountable, then I'm cool with Floyd.

Until 60 Minutes, Tyler was lower than anything for me. Now, I don't know how much more he can do. He's certainly not profited from his lies. I'm cool with him.
Armstrong sits in his own particular pile of filth. Dirtbag beat the rap, what more to say? Wish only bad things for Lance.

Pro cycling is dirty. The whole system is built around either doping or supporting dopers. It is a filthy circus. No great love for any of 'em. LeMond was a demigod, though.

For the record I like Tyler and admire him. HOWEVER, he did exactly the same thing as Floyd. Book, fund, fought it. etc etc. What's the difference? They both came clean. In fact Floyd came clean first. Tyler himself admits he wouldn't have come clean if they Feds hadn't come knocking. Floyd voluntarily confessed.
Now I really don't understand where you're coming from. Consistency is all I seek here.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

For me, Floyd has a debt he still has to pay. It's not about doping, for me--it is about stealing. When Floyd acts accountable for his actions instead of just talking accountable, then I'm cool with Floyd.

So Floyd still has a debt to pay?
Even though he was caught, sanctioned, fined and spent 2 years suspended.

Until 60 Minutes, Tyler was lower than anything for me. Now, I don't know how much more he can do. He's certainly not profited from his lies. I'm cool with him.

Armstrong sits in his own particular pile of filth. Dirtbag beat the rap, what more to say? Wish only bad things for Lance.

So if you have such scorn for Lance then why is it you cannot answer the simple question of should he pay back everyone who bought his fraudulent book?
Unlike Floyd, he certainly is in a position to pay it.

Pro cycling is dirty. The whole system is built around either doping or supporting dopers. It is a filthy circus. No great love for any of 'em. LeMond was a demigod, though.

This just makes your inconsistent stances even more bizarre.

 

[Digger]

No apples and oranges. Both riders had a positive test, Armstrong may have had four positives in his career, all have been wiped away. Since he was riding under the flag of the US Government, US Postal is a Government buisiness or how do you name it, so he frauded the US citizens too. The feds couldn't make that sick, off course, this fish is too big. They couldn't get the shark but can they take the little fish?

My point is the case is quite simular, only Landis is much easier to catch. Is it worth the trouble? What if Landis gets convicted and another USPS rider spills his guts? Maybe it's all a scam, sir Lance is a powerfull man these days, maybe even the new Schwarzenegger...

I couldn't care less when proven Landis misled people for money and gets convicted for it. If he knew what that fund was doing and why? His problem.

But I always find it somehow funny when people cross sir Lance's paths they somehow get ****ed in the ***, pardon my language. Landis/Lemond/Contador. Don't mess with the Boss.
Note: there is only one Boss, mr Springsteen off course.

And this is exactly what it boils down to. Lance is a nasty, vindictive bully. And he knows how to politic well. He knows who to look after for the days ahead. So in that regard he's shrewd. To actually have the power to get a Federal investigation dropped, when the investigators were a few weeks away from indictment, is incredible.

 

[BotanyBay]

Give an example of what you think he hasn't said then.


By the way you clearly haven't read it - he admits to blood doping DURING the tour. He discussed it with Perreiro - they were both going to do a refill prior to the final TT.
Hate him all you want, but get your facts straight.

(Advance disclaimer: Just because Fabiani utilizes this same example, doesn't make me a "Fabian-boy")

I think Floyd permanently damaged his credibility through several YEARS of repeated behaviors.

I think his decision to cop to drug use during the '06 Tour was a STRATEGIC act of "contrition-by-proxy". A situation of absolute value, so to speak. To admit to Testosterone during that Tour would not only make him a liar and a thief, but criminally liable for fraud.

A stragtegic substitution of sins. Done for the effect of absolute value, not truth.

 

[Digger]

(Advance disclaimer: Just because Fabiani utilizes this same example, doesn't make me a "Fabian-boy")

I think Floyd permanently damaged his credibility through several YEARS of repeated behaviors.

I think his decision to cop to drug use during the '06 Tour was a STRATEGIC act of "contrition-by-proxy". A situation of absolute value, so to speak. To admit to Testosterone during that Tour would not only make him a liar and a thief, but criminally liable for fraud.

A stragtegic substitution of sins. Done for the effect of absolute value, not truth.

Your position is so untenable it's hanging by a thread. He admits to doping. He admits to using testosterone before the Tour. How can this absolve him of blame in terms of fraud, in the context you outline above?
You say he only threw Lance under the bus. I outlined how this was not the case.
Please outline now, how and what more he could have added in your eyes.

By the way, 'strategic' you say. WTF has he gained. Some strategy that is.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And this is exactly what it boils down to. Lance is a nasty, vindictive bully. And he knows how to politic well. He knows who to look after for the days ahead. So in that regard he's shrewd. To actually have the power to get a Federal investigation dropped, when the investigators were a few weeks away from indictment, is incredible.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

'"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)."

But, no indicment for sir.

So, in cycling, when u come clean u get indicted. Why do people think riders are still 'omerted'?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Off course. But if the feds couldn't prove the doping at USPS how will they prove this fraud? If there was a fraud to begin with.

Isn't it all just coinciding with Landis' confession last year? It's just an administrative charge which will slumber for a few years and will be thrown out of court for lack of evidence? So the authorities can say 'Look, we did our best but couldn't make it stick'?To be real honest, who in the world would buy that kinda stuff? Really, that stuff would make Bernie Madoff blush hahahaha. The US banking system missed a great opportunity there imo

Nice try.
They dropped the case flat. Not for reasons relating to evidence or no.
Are you having fun in your new sandbox?

 

[TERMINATOR]

To be fair though when you don't have political influence to sort things out, it often does result in charges....

Yeah, I know. I was just being a dickk.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Nice try.
They dropped the case flat. Not for reasons relating to evidence or no.
Are you having fun in your new sandbox?

Flat? Wasn't it a 20 month investigation or are we talking about something else?

 

[TERMINATOR]

You have no idea if that is completelytrue or not. You are not the FFF accountant under oath. Hopefully the investigation will take it's course and then we will see.

Dumb dumb. I'm sure the lawyers got paid. And I'm sure they cost a lot. And I'm sure that most if not all of the money went towards the defense because at the time, if you recall, Floyd and his team of jackoff sycophants which included just about everyone actually thought they could beat the wrap. The prevailing theory at the time was that if Floyd beat the wrap, he could cash in for millions in endorsements and team contracts, since as an American Tour winner his star was on the rise and he had a very marketable persona. It was the quintessential Amish boy Cinderella story. So I am quite sure they sunk most of that money into his vigorous defense. The FFF wasn't some get-rich scheme or something.

I think this AUSA is just some Cat. 3 licensed racer who wants to immerse himself into the sport...maybe even ingratiate himself to the evil cabal in Colorado Springs (and Aspen). Sounds like this grand jury investigation had more to do with another one of Lance's cell phone calls than any new or credible information.

Don't you ever question the manner in which I provide freedom again.

 

[BotanyBay]

Your position is so untenable it's hanging by a thread. He admits to doping. He admits to using testosterone before the Tour. How can this absolve him of blame in terms of fraud, in the context you outline above?
You say he only threw Lance under the bus. I outlined how this was not the case.
Please outline now, how and what more he could have added in your eyes.

By the way, 'strategic' you say. WTF has he gained. Some strategy that is.

Digger, 1st, be nice. Second, my position is not untenable.

He's already a proven liar. Admitting to actually using the substance they accuse him of using would subject him to the possibility of prosecution. But, he wants to show that he's "done with all the crap". So, how does one atone for his sins without going to jail? Simple: Admit to different sins. Everyone walks away happy, right? Certainly you do.

What has he gained? He can't have the spoils that he has worked so hard to have gained (even WITH the illicit help), and he can't even blackmail his way back into bad-boy-land again. He loses his big house, gets kicked to the curb by his wife and has to retreat up into the mountains to even have a bed to sleep on. He can't even keep it together riding for Bahati's rickety-rack team. Meanwhile, he looks up and sees a G4 rocking its wings back and forth as it flies overhead (That's Lance saying F-U on his way back to Aspen...and who knows, it might be Floyd's ex helping cause that wing-rock... Lance has a reputation for doing that to the wives of rivals).
What has he gained? Sticking it back to his biggest partner-in-crime PUTZ.

"Oh, I used Testosterone, but not THAT day." (gee, you only tested frigging POSITIVE FOR IT)

"Oh, I was full of extra RBCs, but they never caught me for that"... Doesn't help you at all, Floyd.

Ever consider this?... Floyd was such a past abuser of testosterone that his body quite possibly quit producing it naturally, forcing him to use daily "maintenance" doses just to be "normal" (chemically). But perhaps his body kicked back a little "spike" that day, causing the testers to zoom-in and have a look at what his body's testoserone was actually MADE OF. remember, in the rationalizing mind of a doper, that "maintenance dose" would not be considered "doping" in his mind. He probably thought he was at baseline levels, so he was "OK" as far as cheating.

Floyd's ****ed that he got caught cheating for the drug he never expected to get caught cheating with.

And next time you read his NYVELOCITY interview, follow it up with his Pepperdine saga. Oh right, I'm sure you believe that Floyd had nothing to do with that phone call to Greg. Like I said, you're so desperate for the truth, that you'll swallow any morsel you can get and automatically believe it.