For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[FrankDay]

I suspect Frank has nothing to teach me about Sprinting.

I suspect the same thing.

 

[coapman]

I suspect the same thing.

Does that mean PC's can do nothing to improve a sprinter's power output.

 

[FrankDay]

Does that mean PC's can do nothing to improve a sprinter's power output.

No, it just means it is impossible for me to teach Fergie anything. To teach something to someone they must be a willing participant in the process.

Edit: Most people participate in forums to try to learn something from others. It is a give and take. Fergie, it seems, is more interested in simply, well I don't know what, but it isn't a give and take dialogue.

 

[CoachFergie]

Amusing seeing someone take the high road when their only motive here is to peddle their Snake Oil.

 

[coapman]

He did? Care to point to his power profile or peddling analysis?

When a rider gets out of the saddle, he can apply full body weight force to the pedal with average stress on his thigh muscles, but if he attempts to apply full body weight to the pedal when seated, things are very different. This is because he is now using indirect resistance for this force, it has to be transferred from the hip to the knee before force can be applied vertically downward from the knee. To overcome this problem Anquetil changed his peak torque spot from just after 3 o'c to 1 o'c, which meant he could now use direct resistance in the upper two thirds of his power stroke and apply much more torque there with very little stress on his thigh muscles, in addition to extending his pedalling power stroke from 120 to 180 degrees.

 

[CoachFergie]

When a rider gets out of the saddle, he can apply full body weight force to the pedal with average stress on his thigh muscles, but if he attempts to apply full body weight to the pedal when seated, things are very different. This is because he is now using indirect resistance for this force, it has to be transferred from the hip to the knee before force can be applied vertically downward from the knee. To overcome this problem Anquetil changed his peak torque spot from just after 3 o'c to 1 o'c, which meant he could now use direct resistance in the upper two thirds of his power stroke and apply much more torque there with very little stress on his thigh muscles, in addition to extending his pedalling power stroke from 120 to 180 degrees.

Give you a wee hint, when you are asked for a profile or analysis it normally means some type of measurement is involved. Not what your imagination thinks is happening.

 

[coapman]

Give you a wee hint, when you are asked for a profile or analysis it normally means some type of measurement is involved. Not what your imagination thinks is happening.

I belong to the Obree camp, we search for what's best to improve power output and get on with it instead of all the repetitive analysis of mashing and circular pedalling which did nothing to change or improve pedalling from the day the bike was first invented.

 

[CoachFergie]

I belong to the Obree camp, we search for what's best to improve power output and get on with it instead of all the repetitive analysis of mashing and circular pedalling which did nothing to change or improve pedalling from the day the bike was first invented.

That's quite amusing when you consider that of any Hour record breaking he produced the least amount of power.

 

[coapman]

That's quite amusing when you consider that of any Hour record breaking he produced the least amount of power.

To win by a second was enough for Anquetil, he did not believe in wasting energy and all his TT's were timed to perfection, he always had plenty in reserve.

 

[CoachFergie]

To win by a second was enough for Anquetil, he did not believe in wasting energy and all his TT's were timed to perfection, he always had plenty in reserve.

Cool story Bro, but not as compelling as data.

 

[veganrob]

When a rider gets out of the saddle, he can apply full body weight force to the pedal with average stress on his thigh muscles, but if he attempts to apply full body weight to the pedal when seated, things are very different. This is because he is now using indirect resistance for this force, it has to be transferred from the hip to the knee before force can be applied vertically downward from the knee. To overcome this problem Anquetil changed his peak torque spot from just after 3 o'c to 1 o'c, which meant he could now use direct resistance in the upper two thirds of his power stroke and apply much more torque there with very little stress on his thigh muscles, in addition to extending his pedalling power stroke from 120 to 180 degrees.

Do you have pics of Anquetil doing this? It seems to me he would have to slide his saddle back further than normal and to achieve aero position would really close his hip angle. Which is not good either. And if he was starting his peak torque earlier he would be losing it earlier. The cranks are round after all with a limited arm.
just a thought.

 

[Parrot23]

Anquetil changed his peak torque spot from just after 3 o'c to 1 o'c, which meant he could now use direct resistance in the upper two thirds of his power stroke and apply much more torque there with very little stress on his thigh muscles, in addition to extending his pedalling power stroke from 120 to 180 degrees.

I think Anquetil was well-known for toe down pedalling, a bit different from Lemond with his widely known/used "scrap the mud off the bottom of his shoes" ankling metaphor (as if on a doormat). I think all types of pedallers win the Tour.

 

[CoachFergie]

I think Anquetil was well-known for toe down pedalling, a bit different from Lemond with his widely known/used "scrap the mud off the bottom of his shoes" ankling metaphor (as if on a doormat). I think all types of pedallers win the Tour.

Much the same as the high cadence craze that may never happened if Ullrich had stayed away from the Bakery and challenged Armstrong more rolling a much bigger gear. The folly of blindly following what the top riders do.

 

[coapman]

Do you have pics of Anquetil doing this? It seems to me he would have to slide his saddle back further than normal and to achieve aero position would really close his hip angle. Which is not good either. And if he was starting his peak torque earlier he would be losing it earlier. The cranks are round after all with a limited arm.
just a thought.

There is pedalling footage available on a video (u-tube I think) not sure where, and if you find it you can check out the aeroness of his position. The starting and ending of peak torque does not matter, continuous max torque can be applied from 12 to 3 o'c in a powerful pedalling stroke that extends from 11 to 5 o'c. The cranks may be round but it is surprising what muscles can do when given sensible objectives.

 

[CoachFergie]

There is pedalling footage available on a video (u-tube I think) not sure where, and if you find it you can check out the aeroness of his position. The starting and ending of peak torque does not matter, continuous max torque can be applied from 12 to 3 o'c in a powerful pedalling stroke that extends from 11 to 5 o'c. The cranks may be round but it is surprising what muscles can do when given sensible objectives.

What a vivid imagination you have. Amazing that in 30+ years of the technology being available to test your delusions you haven't done so.

 

[coapman]

Here is a study out of Norway that sort of kicks that notion into the garbage can,


To generate power evenly around the whole pedal revolution may be an important energy-saving trait."

What is your understanding of this last sentence. How does one generate power evenly around the whole pedal revolution.

 

[FrankDay]

What is your understanding of this last sentence. How does one generate power evenly around the whole pedal revolution.

One has to separate power "generation" from muscle contraction from pedal forces. All power is generated by the muscles so one needs to look at the work done by the muscles when looking at power generation and efficiency. Since pedal forces on the upstroke seem to do no work (or even negative work) it would seem those muscles are doing no work when, in fact, they are increasing the potential energy of the leg and doing work that is later returned as power later when the leg comes down. And, people get confused thinking that those large forces on the downstroke are all coming from muscle "pushing" when, in fact, a large amount of that "power" is coming from the work done on the upstroke. I think that is the intent of that sentence.

While I doubt that a completely even power generation around the entire circle will be found to be most efficient it certainly is believable that a "more even" power generation is better than what most do now.

 

[coapman]

Phil's final report[/URL] to the group:





2/ Modification of ones pedal stroke with increased pull-up tends to
diminish the magnitude of the downstroke. Someone actually reported
that they deteriorated overall after using the Cranks.
This is noticeable when climbing out of the saddle or trying to
accelerate quickly with a pedal stomp. What I did to counteract this was to
do a few 10 minute sessions of climbing a week using my quads only to
maintain their power and strength.

)

This is what I have always claimed, the more you pull up, the less you are able to push down and there is the proof. This man had to do extra sessions to maintain his starting power and strength.

 

[FrankDay]

… there is the proof. …

If you say so.

 

[coapman]

If you say so.

How about a sinusoidal graph of a PC rider's pedalling at maximal power output. He should be your most powerful PC'er who has completed the 9 months or more of exclusive PC use. It would demonstrate how much positive torque he could apply during the upstroke, across the top and bottom.

 

[FrankDay]

How about a sinusoidal graph of a PC rider's pedalling at maximal power output. He should be your most powerful PC'er who has completed the 9 months or more of exclusive PC use. It would demonstrate how much positive torque he could apply during the upstroke, across the top and bottom.

OK. But it will take a little time. Still haven't been able to get even my own data yet from the pre-production unit I have.

 

[CoachFergie]

OK. But it will take a little time. Still haven't been able to get even my own data yet from the pre-production unit I have.

You two love rearranging the deck cheers on the Titanic. What racing Cyclist is going to spend 9 months exclusively using a Gimmickcrank when they have to perform using a normal crank. Thanks to Fernandez-Pena and co we know that any changes to pedalling technique are lost when riders go back to normal cranks. Continue to delude yourselves.

 

[coapman]

You two love rearranging the deck cheers on the Titanic. What racing Cyclist is going to spend 9 months exclusively using a Gimmickcrank when they have to perform using a normal crank. Thanks to Fernandez-Pena and co we know that any changes to pedalling technique are lost when riders go back to normal cranks. Continue to delude yourselves.

These scientists appear to be stupid people, there is a simple explanation for the loss of these changes which can be easily rectified.

 

[FrankDay]

What racing Cyclist is going to spend 9 months exclusively using a Gimmickcrank when they have to perform using a normal crank.

Actually, quite a few of them, at least in the off season. Don't you ever wonder why pros continue to contact us about getting on the product? Why, after all these years of experience (by those winning) with the product, would that continue to happen if it were so worthless.

 

[CoachFergie]

These scientists appear to be stupid people, there is a simple explanation for the loss of these changes which can be easily rectified.

If it was so obvious you would have data to prove this seeing the technology to test your hypothesis has been available for 30+ years.