Frank schleck

[Cavalier]

Not trying to pick a fight but this comment is exceptionally naive. When are people going to realize riders are going to cheat until they get caught - the financial rewards are too high not to.

Frank has a tainted past. Just like the majority of teams and riders. Who do you think tainted the sample? Contador? He's not doing anything currently.

Pretty sure the last thing anyone can accuse me of is being naive about doping.

My point was simply that the timing - and product - is exceptionally odd considering everything else that's happening around that team at the moment.

 

[TubularBills]

Pardon if repeated. Went to Lecture at 200 returned to 400.

This is unconscionable:

Twitter:

julienpretotRTR ‏@julienpretotRTR

Schleck willingly went to police station, hotel not searched - radioshack

Hanging a rider out to dry? Scapegoated?

Whether guilty or innocent fine tooth comb the whole firkin lot!

Shameful on everyone - but the rider. UCI, ASO, RSNT, OCLEPS (sic?).. the lot is beyond corrupted! Earlier someone said McQuaid/Bruyneel, No Doubt.

https://twitter.com/hendriksmj/status/225308708131979266/photo/1

In force, no search?

 

[Cavalier]

Frank actually is responsible for what he puts in his body.

Under the guise of the rules, absolutely - I don't disagree with that. My point is, how many riders have you ever seen refuse a bottle because they didn't fill it personally? There's an element of trust there with regards to team staff.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Frank is rocking the "B!tch set me up" defense. Those former or current Washington DC residents known what I'm saying.

 

[BillytheKid]

Nothing really surprises me anymore.


But now we all know why Andy said he didn't feel like the winner of the Tour because he along with his brother cheats as well.

Guilt by association is a false argument.

Example: President Jimmy Carter's brother was a heavy drinker, therefore President Carter drinks alot too...Advertising uses it this all the time.

I would say it raises the spector as being very possible given they both race bikes and have had top results, but you can't logically say Frank's positive makes Andy "positive" as well as a fact.

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Pretty sure the last thing anyone can accuse me of is being naive about doping.

My point was simply that the timing - and product - is exceptionally odd considering everything else that's happening around that team at the moment.

I am not saying that you're naive about doping. Just the comment. It's just that far too many riders have tested positive.

It's sort of the definition of insanity. Nothing changes.

 

[ManInFull]

Frank is rocking the "B!tch set me up" defense. Those former or current Washington DC residents known what I'm saying.

Yes, and that was clearly a great defense for the honorable mayor of DC.

 

[TubularBills]

Why would a diuretic potentially help with this?

"it is also potentially useful in the management of chronic left ventricular failure."

lower blood volume = lower BP = less work for the heart, also helps with oedema which is common in CHF

the left ventricle is the bit that pushes oxygenated blood up the aorta and to the body - thus it is very important.

Thee_Chisa knows his stuff.

Maybe "less work for the heart" means you don't die in your sleep? & avoid needing to set an alarm?

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Guilt by association is a false argument.

Example: President Jimmy Carter's brother was a heavy drinker, therefore President Carter drinks alot too...Advertising uses it this all the time.

I would say it raises the spector as being very possible given they both race bikes and have had top results, but you can't logically say Frank's positive makes Andy "positive" as well as a fact.

Using Jimmy Carter and Billy is a poor example. The circumstances of the two are light years apart. Jimmy was president. Billy was a drunkard.

Both Frank and Andy are professional cyclists. Your second paragraph even alludes to his point. Frank even stated he greatly missed Andy at the tour.

They do everything together. In a normal circumstance, I would agree that guilt by association is not valid but this is not a normal situation. But if you want to think Andy is not guilty of doping. I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise.

We will all believe what we believe whether guilty or innocent.

 

[keeponrollin]

You don't understand someone poisoned him with something else and he was taking the diuretic to get rid of it

Ah I see....

If he hadn't preemptively doped with a diuretic, then he'd have had a false positive for the Bull hormones that the mysterious spiker was putting in his Hot Chocolate.


.
.

I'm convinced, let him off I say... in fact promote him 5 places as the doping obviously handicaped him.

 

[maxmartin]

he should take some hints from Kolobnev's case

 

[Angrylegs]

My point was simply that the timing - and product - is exceptionally odd considering everything else that's happening around that team at the moment.

Not really. Its just a masking agent. If you work under the assumption, as I do, that most teams sporting a GC contender turn a blind eye and unofficially support - if not behind-the-scenes through some of their staff actually aid - doping within their teams, then this isn't much of a surprise at all. Its systemic, and a not unsignificant percentage of pro riders take something in order to remain at least relevant and among the top end, if only in conversation, since all of the rest of their competition on that level do as well.

Some people just get unlucky. Testing is a little like Russian Roulette, only your odds are way, way better, since testing is limited and random. If you know the system and have good medical advice, you can improve your odds greatly. Someone upthread said Frank probably scored a suspicious value and decided to take the risk to get it out of the system. Probably he was feeling the pressure to at least try and win a stage, or even if he thought he couldnt, he was getting the pressure to try.

Looking back on the Lance era makes it pretty obvious. Most of Postal were eventually caught doping, as were pretty much all of Lance's rivals of the time, as well as a few others winning mountains classifications etc. Not only does it become harder to say Lance trounced all of these guys day in, day out, year after year, and did it cleanly. It also becomes pretty hard when looking at the breadth across teams to say well, it was just these few riders. More likely it was simply any and all who wanted to try and win, get on the podium, simply try and compete, maybe win a stage, as well as a few key domestiques supporting each of these riders.

And it continues like that now. And occasionally some of these get unlucky and get caught on something and everyone around them denies knowledge and praises the current era of cleaner cycling, when really, its not changed all that much. New drugs, new methods. Try to stay ahead of testing knowledge and the testing curve. Take your risks that you are willing to take - some take more than others - and then roll the dice. It will probably stay that way too until testing is far more thorough and team management is included in the fall. Even then, testing fails to stay ahead of the speed of new methods and drugs, but at least retroactive testing can curb that a little.

I feel sorry for Frank. Not a good year for him. But he's just one of the unlucky ones caught in a random net. Some 30+ others probably simply dodged a bullet and continue riding. Just the way it is.

Having said that - I love the sport. I'm not a cynic. Just a realist. Call me a loon if you disagree, that's ok by me. I compartmentalize and that's how I continue enjoying this sport (and honestly any of them) as there is this other side to them too, which is fascinating in its own way.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes, and that was clearly a great defense for the honorable mayor of DC.

He did get re-elected, oddly enough.

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

I bet this was Sky, they were playing up the rivalry between Froome and Wiggo to deflect attention, now they are doping a terrible rider to deflect even more.. This is Rupert Murdoch we're talking about here people!

 

[Blakeslee]

Unless the poisoned comment turns out to be a result of an inaccurate translation, I am shocked Frank would actually believe this statement somehow makes him look credible. I wish riders would realize statements like this one do far more damage to their reputation than if they just came clean and accepted the suspension.

 

[joe_papp]

Pretty sure the last thing anyone can accuse me of is being naive about doping.

My point was simply that the timing - and product - is exceptionally odd considering everything else that's happening around that team at the moment.

I find myself agreeing with you.

Xipamide has an esoteric prophylactic role in preventing altitude sickness in mtn climbers, but there are other, faster-acting diuretics w/ narrower detection window to use for masking other banned substances. Of course he may have done it but as I said w/ Contador, it's unlikely product to use during the Tour especially...

 

[TubularBills]

I find myself agreeing with you.

Xipamide has an esoteric prophylactic role in preventing altitude sickness in mtn climbers, but there are other, faster-acting diuretics w/ narrower detection window to use for masking other banned substances. Of course he may have done it but as I said w/ Contador, it's unlikely product to use during the Tour especially...

Could just be a 'bait and switch' - a high profile positive, dominates the Forum and the international news and takes the heat off of LA et al.

Supports the 'everyone' argument.

+ When under attack, create a distraction.

I'm sure it's somewhere in the 'Art of War'

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Lol!!

Seriously I do kind of feel sorry for Frank...

In all honesty, I do too. Maybe it is just because he is getting dropped and had such a bad year, and that I know if he is sucking this bad, the guys in front of him are much less believable about their cleanliness IMO.

 

[BillytheKid]

Using Jimmy Carter and Billy is a poor example. The circumstances of the two are light years apart. Jimmy was president. Billy was a drunkard.

Both Frank and Andy are professional cyclists. Your second paragraph even alludes to his point. Frank even stated he greatly missed Andy at the tour.

They do everything together. In a normal circumstance, I would agree that guilt by association is not valid but this is not a normal situation. But if you want to think Andy is not guilty of doping. I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise.

We will all believe what we believe whether guilty or innocent.

I noted the example as not being the best, but it is still valid.

Whatever....you can assume all you want and the assumption is not without strong merit, but it can not be fact until you have an actual positive or other substantial evidence.

Keep your posts handy becasue you can always get yourself out of jury duty.

 

[dbrower]

I am puzzled WHY the RSNT hotel wasn't searched. Has anyone heard a good reason why not? Nice as it was, I don't see how Frank's going to the station should have deterred a search, if for no other reason than to find his supposed pills.

-dB

 

[joe_papp]

I am not saying that you're naive about doping. Just the comment. It's just that far too many riders have tested positive.

It's sort of the definition of insanity. Nothing changes.

Yes but so few riders have tested positive for diuretics, and the last high-profile one defended his case successfully (against the UCI) at CAS.

 

[rhubroma]

According to this:

http://www.theathlete.org/banned_drugs/xipamide.html

Substances within it are banned by IOC. How do they relate to WADA?

Don't know, but thanks and Epicycle too.

What got me, though, was the difference in wording from "false analytical" on CN to essentially "he doped" in la Repubblica.

 

[BroDeal]

In all honesty, I do too. Maybe it is just because he is getting dropped and had such a bad year, and that I know if he is sucking this bad, the guys in front of him are much less believable about their cleanliness IMO.

That is why they had to set him up. He and Andy went clean this year. With everyone else doped to the eyeballs--to the gills in Team Sky's case--too many eyebrows were being raised. Just like Christophe Bassons, they had to get rid of him.

 

[joe_papp]

Yep. To add some more detail: I've got several close family members working/volunteering as jury officials for the German Cycling Federation and they choose riders to be "randomly" tested in national competitions mainly based on a) a sudden increase in recent performance, b) estimated time since an individual rider's last test, c) rumors about riders not being clean and d) overall performance.

I assume at the TDF it works slightly differently, since they conduct way more tests, but riders would hardly ever be randomly selected for testing.

Very true.

The control that got me was a "random" - on the last stage of the Tour of Turkey, after I'd won it and 2 or 3 of the preceding stages.

 

[Cavalier]

Not really. Its just a masking agent...

For me the odd thing is exactly that. It's a masking agent which is horrifically simple to detect. There's no ambiguity with it - it really is amongst the most simple things to detect that an athlete could take. There's far better solutions out there for masking agents, which is why I found this one a little odd considering that team will be under a microscope.