Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

I'm a bit baffled by the comments along the lines of "Froome knew he'd be tested so why would he take it as a PED?".

Surely, if nobody miscalculated no one of note would ever get caught.

I think there's a difference to the majority of people who get caught here. Taking a risk with game changing PED's, out of competition and then being caught out by random OOC testing, miscalculating half life's or underestimating how good testing is for certain types of PED's is one thing.

Taking a drug that you're very familiar with, one for which testing protocols are very well known and established knowing that you're 100% certain to be tested the next day, is entirely different.

Keep up the good fight. Taking a drug that you are familiar with that takes you 100% over the legal limit is entirely different to what exactly??

 

[Avoriaz]

Is the motor in Froome's Pinarello powered by salbutamol?

 

[veji11]

So he got tested positive the day when he got dropped badly on 17th stage ? Or was it the following day when he picked up some time back "Landis style" ? Would be interesting, next time other will know that when you have a bad day all you have to do is puff it away.

 

[ppanther92]

Re: Re:

How many puffs would you need to take to reach 2000ng/ml?

Must've been a really big effort coming up since he "only uses it before big efforts".

The limit of 1000 ng/ml in the urine is calculated for 16 puffs (16!!!!!)

Froome took at least twice that dose!

Woah. Most asthmatics I know take 2, sometimes 3 max. I could see an athlete taking more, but 32???

And that depends on whether he was using the 50 ug or 125 ug inhaler...

John Swanson

Can confirm, personally i always take one puff and when not enough two. 32 seems crazy to me...

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

So he got tested positive the day when he got dropped badly on 17th stage ? Or was it the following day when he picked up some time back "Landis style" ? Would be interesting, next time other will know that when you have a bad day all you have to do is puff it away.

After stage 18.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Machine Calibration Issues in 3...2...1...

How many puffs is a usual dose and how often does an asthmatic take them?

I have a 125 ug inhaler, and one dose is usually good. If after ~ten minutes I'm having problems I'll take another. If I need multiple hits off the inhale or have a coldr, then I will start using an inhalable corticosteroid. If I need the inhaler five times in a 24 hour period, it's recommended I go to the hospital.

John Swanson

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I'm a bit baffled by the comments along the lines of "Froome knew he'd be tested so why would he take it as a PED?".

Surely, if nobody miscalculated no one of note would ever get caught.

I think there's a difference to the majority of people who get caught here. Taking a risk with game changing PED's, out of competition and then being caught out by random OOC testing, miscalculating half life's or underestimating how good testing is for certain types of PED's is one thing.

Taking a drug that you're very familiar with, one for which testing protocols are very well known and established knowing that you're 100% certain to be tested the next day, is entirely different.

It might be as simple as using it strictly as a PED for much of your career, then forgetting you had already taken your dose that morning and doubling it by mistake.

I suppose it might be. That's the kind of thing i do with my blood pressure medication :lol:

Then again i'm not a multiple TDF winner about to win the Vuelta with so much riding on me not making mistakes like that.

Although i suppose we do know from past contradictions that memory is not his strong point!

 

[ferryman]

This. Copied from my home football team's off topic forum (the guy is a ski instructor in Italy):

'It would be easy to ascertain- asthma surferers would be identified at childhood or teenage, well before adulthood (there are exceptions, but rare). So if their medical records identified asthma before they took up a professional sport that required strong lung capacity, then fine.

Also, if they take salbutamol in their daily life when not competing, then also Ok, but if they are only taking it when competing then sorry, but they are cheating.

I work in winter at high altitudes, the effect of my inhaler on my lungs is incredible, its a massive help, so I would not be surprised that using it on mountain stages on Tour De France etc is extremely beneficial.

I await the above evidence of childhood use and/or daily use in normal life coming out, but until then I suspect anyone who takes salbutamol for lung endurance sports to be cheating.'

 

[thehog]

Re:

So he got tested positive the day when he got dropped badly on 17th stage ? Or was it the following day when he picked up some time back "Landis style" ? Would be interesting, next time other will know that when you have a bad day all you have to do is puff it away.

His post stage interview on the stage 18 they ask him if he’s sick. He says no. I’d say blood bag at this stage.

https://youtu.be/SkBT13_ELCM

 

[WheelofGear]

Could this affect Porte too? Maybe even Thomas?

Think Tour De France 2015, stage 10. Collective inhaling?

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

What are they going to do without Froome?

Thomas for Giro, Kwai for Tour and Poels/Henao for Vuelta?

G a happy man this morning...?

It might be a good thing for Team Sky since they also have the chance to take a look into the future of the team (Bernal, Sivakov). Froome will be 33 next year and 32 year old Thomas is soon gone, they need a future.

If (big IF) Froome loses the Vuelta and gets banned from next year's TdF are Sky gonna survive that...?

The numpty UK fanboys ain't gonna cheer on Bernal and Sivakov from their sofas!

 

[Saint Unix]

I think Froome might use his inhaler like he uses his bike computer when training and simply ignored the advice of the specialists and went for a leisurely 30 or so extra-curricular puffs.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I'm a bit baffled by the comments along the lines of "Froome knew he'd be tested so why would he take it as a PED?".

Surely, if nobody miscalculated no one of note would ever get caught.

I think there's a difference to the majority of people who get caught here. Taking a risk with game changing PED's, out of competition and then being caught out by random OOC testing, miscalculating half life's or underestimating how good testing is for certain types of PED's is one thing.

Taking a drug that you're very familiar with, one for which testing protocols are very well known and established knowing that you're 100% certain to be tested the next day, is entirely different.

Keep up the good fight. Taking a drug that you are familiar with that takes you 100% over the legal limit is entirely different to what exactly??

Is an entirely different risk/reward profile. Sorry, wasn't that clear enough for you?

Ps. You forgot to call me a Skybot/fanboy/froomebot/lancebot/putdown of your choice

 

[Robert5091]

After over cooking ITT, then suffering on stage 17, Sky over do the "recovery cocktail" for stage 18 - my 2 cents worth.

 

[King Boonen]

Just so people are aware of the rules on this:


"The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 40 ng/mL is not consistent with therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of a therapeutic dose (by inhalation) up to the maximum dose indicated above."

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

Just so people are aware of the rules on this:


"The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 40 ng/mL is not consistent with therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of a therapeutic dose (by inhalation) up to the maximum dose indicated above."

So, does this not acknowledge the possibility that one can stay within the allowed doseage yet still be above the 1000 ng/ml limit?

Otherwise being above the 1000 ng/ml would be an automatic doping violation, right?

 

[armchairclimber]

Carlton Kirby's commentary on the "Best of the Vuelta" Eurosport this morning ... at the end of stage 18, referencing the bad stage the day before...

"there were cracks, but they've filled them. And they've polished them".

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Just so people are aware of the rules on this:


"The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 40 ng/mL is not consistent with therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of a therapeutic dose (by inhalation) up to the maximum dose indicated above."

So, does this not acknowledge the possibility that one can stay within the allowed doseage yet still be above the 1000 ng/ml limit?

Otherwise being above the 1000 ng/ml would be an automatic doping violation, right?

He's had three months and his career on the line. So where is the pharmacokinetic study which shows this? This was an easy one to get out in front of if it was innocent.

John Swanson

 

[deviant]

Ferryman, there is a subsection of asthma known as 'exercise induced' asthma...i have it, don't use my salbutamol from one day to the next but if I play squash, go kickboxing or do anything active outside in cold weather I get wheezy or tight chested and need to use it... That's not cheating, that's correct use for exercise induced asthma, or are you seriously suggesting I shouldn't exercise or should continue exercising but while having an asthma attack?...because no DR in the UK would advise either of those.

For all the national/regional posting about use and doses...the UK salbutamol inhalers are 100ug, the recommend use is 1 - 2 puffs up to four times a day, that's a max of 800ug/day or 8 puffs...whether that makes a difference or not I don't know.

This kind of bears out what I've been saying for months, that Sky have learnt to dope with 'legal' prescription meds as opposed to the old way of EPO and blood bags...seems someone made a miscalculation though, oops.

 

[keeponrollin]

I do hope that medical record keeping has improved in Sky, & that there haven't been any additional laptop thefts.

Still; it's good that the UCI have carried out dosage testing on other riders previously; so there'll be no ambiguity around how they're performed, & what constitutes a fail.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

I'm a bit baffled by the comments along the lines of "Froome knew he'd be tested so why would he take it as a PED?".

Surely, if nobody miscalculated no one of note would ever get caught.

I think there's a difference to the majority of people who get caught here. Taking a risk with game changing PED's, out of competition and then being caught out by random OOC testing, miscalculating half life's or underestimating how good testing is for certain types of PED's is one thing.

Taking a drug that you're very familiar with, one for which testing protocols are very well known and established knowing that you're 100% certain to be tested the next day, is entirely different.

Keep up the good fight. Taking a drug that you are familiar with that takes you 100% over the legal limit is entirely different to what exactly??

Is an entirely different risk/reward profile. Sorry, wasn't that clear enough for you?

Ps. You forgot to call me a Skybot/fanboy/froomebot/lancebot/putdown of your choice

It doesn't matter if it was accidental or not and for performance enhancement or not in big scheme of things. He failed the test and should get punished. The intentionality is the matter to be evaluated and will affect to the lenght of ban, but should not remove the punishment as whole.

XC skier Therese Johaug lately was in CAS for case where she explaind she got steroids (I know more severe than Salbutamol) to her system from lip cream (can you imagine!!??) bought by her doctor to her in Italy claiming she did not know it contained steroids. 18 months ban in CAS ruled although CAS concluded there is no evidence she did it for perfomance enhancing.

Athletes personal liability of what goes into his/her system is fundamental element of any doping ruling and it applies for Froome as well. I think the violation of personal liability is more severe if it can be proved that the athelete knows the substanse inside out and has been using it for ages.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

For the team's sake they need to have medical records that have already been turned over and stand up to forensic scrutiny.

To a layman, double concentration seems somewhat high even if he was puffing to the limit. Looking at the WADA code that's 8 puffs of a 100 mcg inhaler in a 12 hour period (and 16 puffs in a 24 hour period). If he was using a 200 mcg inhaler by accident, or didn't realise the 8-in-12 part then that could explain it. Other forms still seem to be banned. I wonder now if there's some trick with a spacer to get maximum uptake of salbutamol from 800 mcg.

If I needed that many puffs of an inhaler, I don't think medical advice would be to cycle up a hill.

A spacer stops leakage so you get the maximum benefit from the puff. 16 puffs in a 24 hour period is quite a lot, at that stage even gentle exercise would not be easy and the asthmatic would already be thinking that the Ventolin is not working very well so it's off to the doctor.

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

After over cooking ITT, then suffering on stage 17, Sky over do the "recovery cocktail" for stage 18 - my 2 cents worth.

Seems the likliest scenario for me.

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

Just so people are aware of the rules on this:


"The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 40 ng/mL is not consistent with therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of a therapeutic dose (by inhalation) up to the maximum dose indicated above."

So, does this not acknowledge the possibility that one can stay within the allowed doseage yet still be above the 1000 ng/ml limit?

Otherwise being above the 1000 ng/ml would be an automatic doping violation, right?

Yes. But 2000 ng/ml!? Double the limit?!
I don't know if there is any viable explanation for that. Especially considering SKY have known for three months, yet did not come up with any excuse in their statement.
Even if Froome was not outright doping, he certainly has been cheating. Ban deserved.
For me personally, (unless SKY can prove beyond reasonable doubt their and his innocence), I'm not going to be one of those fans who stick with their rider despite the facts (it is obvious who I am referring to). When it comes to doping, it is guilty until proven innocent. And it is quite clear where the facts point.


(P.S. Time for an avatar change?)

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

For the team's sake they need to have medical records that have already been turned over and stand up to forensic scrutiny.

To a layman, double concentration seems somewhat high even if he was puffing to the limit. Looking at the WADA code that's 8 puffs of a 100 mcg inhaler in a 12 hour period (and 16 puffs in a 24 hour period). If he was using a 200 mcg inhaler by accident, or didn't realise the 8-in-12 part then that could explain it. Other forms still seem to be banned. I wonder now if there's some trick with a spacer to get maximum uptake of salbutamol from 800 mcg.

If I needed that many puffs of an inhaler, I don't think medical advice would be to cycle up a hill.

A spacer stops leakage so you get the maximum benefit from the puff. 16 puffs in a 24 hour period is quite a lot, at that stage even gentle exercise would not be easy and the asthmatic would already be thinking that the Ventolin is not working very well so it's off to the doctor.

I do not believe a minute he got that amount puffing. The stage took good 5 hours and I bet he wasn't puffing during the stage. And half of the dose evaporates from system in 6 hours, so the value before the stage (if puffing) had to be more than double than what the test gives as result. He was on pills or Sky is secretely using nebulizers.