Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Alpe73]

Re:

I agree with this, really. Ever since I started watching pro cycling nearly 40 years ago, it has involved 'superhuman' moments from riders, particularly from the very late 80s onwards, but Froome has stretched this too far for me to be comfortable thinking that I'm watching a bike race rather than a pharmaceutical race (as did Armstrong, as did Indurain). Have to give the guy some credit beyond the purely physical as his tactical skill and bike handling skills are light years away from his Barlo days, but still he just grates too much.

So that's the rub .. in 'it?

Like many of the rest of the anti Froome mercenaries on here … you have an internet addiction and an itch, FFS. That's the package. Lightyears away from being a pro athlete … but a gifted visionary on how it all works. *** amazing. :geek:

 

[macbindle]

Mercenaries? Did you mean to choose that word? You know what it means, yes?

So, go on then, O Grand Cogniscenti of Pro Cycling, tell us all how it actually all works, and explain to us how you are so much closer to being a Pro and how that means that Froome's salbutamol scandal as well as all of the other Sky crap didnt actually happen, and how prior to Vuelta 2011, Froome had bilharzia for the whole of his life and how the miracle cure turned him from an utter nobody into one of the most successful cyclists ever :lol:

You carry on, son. Everybody is listening...

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

I agree with this, really. Ever since I started watching pro cycling nearly 40 years ago, it has involved 'superhuman' moments from riders, particularly from the very late 80s onwards, but Froome has stretched this too far for me to be comfortable thinking that I'm watching a bike race rather than a pharmaceutical race (as did Armstrong, as did Indurain). Have to give the guy some credit beyond the purely physical as his tactical skill and bike handling skills are light years away from his Barlo days, but still he just grates too much.

So that's the rub .. in 'it?

Like many of the rest of the anti Froome mercenaries on here … you have an internet addiction and an itch, FFS. That's the package. Lightyears away from being a pro athlete … but a gifted visionary on how it all works. **** amazing. :geek:

I rode some World Cups XC back in the day....and 2006, my peers and guys I raced against rode against Froome in the commie games mtb xc...he got lapped....beaten by the rider from Guernsey He also got whipped in the TT (remeber that was the one where, despite being kitted out in all the gear, SDB thought he was wearing "sandshoes" ) and the road race.....already showing the genetic superiority of recovery that was to become so evident post-2011 Vuelta......

Some footage of it actually on t'internet...I would say watch it and you'll see our future champ...but they probably were focussing on the front of the race

Froome...the gift that keeps giving....

 

[spalco]

Is there complete footage of the 2011 Vuelta available online somewhere? I'd like to watch it in full sometime when I'm bored maybe but I didn't find anything.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

I rode some World Cups XC back in the day....and 2006, my peers and guys I raced against rode against Froome in the commie games mtb xc...he got lapped....beaten by the rider from Guernsey He also got whipped in the TT (remeber that was the one where, despite being kitted out in all the gear, SDB thought he was wearing "sandshoes" ) and the road race.....already showing the genetic superiority of recovery that was to become so evident post-2011 Vuelta......

In reality this is an extract from the CN report of the road race:

The lead group was split in two after an attack by Davis and South African shadow Robbie Hunter on the twelfth lap. Reaching the front group were Mathew Hayman and Will Walker (Australia), Ryan Cox and David George (South Africa), Steve Cummings (England), Mark Cavendish (Isle of Man), Greg Henderson (New Zealand), Gordon Fraser (Canada) and time trial revelation Chris Froome (Kenya).

Decent company for a full-time university student and time trial 'revelation' with sod all federation support.

And from the TT report:

The first of 72 riders off recorded an impressive time which made a mockery of his ranking for the event. Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01, a time which kept him on top of the standings for almost an hour as the next forty-nine starters failed to better his effort

As for the MTB. That was the first and last MTB race he did. He didn't have a clue.(Burry Stander gave the Kenyan team a crash course on how to ride the obstacles)

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

We're talking about an event where 6 of the riders finished almost 20 minutes slower than the winner
Over a distance of 40km
He was a 'revelation' because he was ranked below those riders and turned out to be not totally crap

 

[gillan1969]

@ Parker

yeah...'full time' uni student....I also used to be one of those

I presume you've seen the who's who of world cycling talent that 'revelation' Froome beat in the TT????

And I see he got pipped on the line by Emile Abraham (Trinidad and Tobago) in the RR.....although to be fair Emile has has ripped up his home tour and recently performed well in age-related track disciplines......

and...well, the mtb race....and with all the MTBing he did back home that was meant to have helped him win the giro last year ...you would have thought with those legs, heart and lungs........

we're not talking about a run-of-the-mill cyclist here...we're talking about a human specimen at the outer limits of human physiology.....

although to be fair...there is always the Anatomic Jock Race to cast has early years in a glow of light................

 

[spalco]

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

yup...I had forgotten about that one...not bad...but yes...not exactly Evenpoel

in terms of another team...maybes aye, maybes no...

especially if he was looking for references from his peers...

“Funny enough, I remember JV (Vaughters) called me after that Tour of Poland”, said Daniel Martin. “(Vaughters) said, ‘Look, I’ve been offered this Chris Froome fella for next year. What do you think?’ And I kind of went (exhales) “Phhhh! He’s a really nice guy but . . .”

presumably dan hadn't heard about the snakes and rabbits at that point....

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

Contador was 1st in his second Grand Tour attempt. He also had a string of podiums in one week stage races prior just like Quintana.

Froome had no real leader in his GT teams so could ride for himself to one hour plus behind. Providing GT placings below 30th is rather a pointless comparison for GTs as each rider in their early years play different roles.

 

[brownbobby]

showthread.php?t=15116

As we seem to be going round in full circle with this discussion again, we might as well begin afresh right from the very start...quite amusing to read some of these posts again with the benefit of hindsight

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

I love cherrypicking results without analyzing them.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

I love cherrypicking results without analyzing them.

It’s what the clinic does, except this is in Froome favour so it what be put down

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

It’s what the clinic does, except this is in Froome favour so it what be put down

No No No
Even if he was a donkey
Even if his fall was terrible
to be put down would be out of order.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

It’s what the clinic does, except this is in Froome favour so it what be put down

No No No
Even if he was a donkey
Even if his fall was terrible
to be put down would be out of order.

minchia ho riso
forza Dawg sempre!

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

I love cherrypicking results without analyzing them.

Yeah, I mean it’s ok to keep referring to things like the technical elite level xc mountain bike race that he was dropped into at the last minute as evidence of his complete lack of talent, but talking about results in early grand tours is just ridiculous....

 

[gillan1969]

@brownbobby
are you even a cyclist? have you ever cycled with anyone insanely good? Froome isn't just (allegedly) insanely good...he's actually one of the most remarkable human specimens the world has even seen at turning pedals fast....only...when asked to turn pedals fast when younger...he, sort of, never....

glad I could help with that

PS he didn't finish, like 5th...he got lapped...that's my level

 

[brownbobby]

@brownbobby
are you even a cyclist? have you ever cycled with anyone insanely good? Froome isn't just (allegedly) insanely good...he's actually one of the most remarkable human specimens the world has even seen at turning pedals fast....only...when asked to turn pedals fast when younger...he, sort of, never....

glad I could help with that

PS he didn't finish, like 5th...he got lapped...that's my level

Yeah...i've ridden a bike once or twice, i even managed to be competitive for a few years at regional league level. I mean i was never in danger of having to give up the day job, but i was ok....does that make me a cyclist?

A few years back, to pass the time during the winter, i decided to have a go at a cyclocross race....i mean how hard could it be...the people who were regularly winning races and leading the winter league were at least one or two categories below me on the road, all i had to do was borrow a mates bike (wasn't quite the right size, but close enough), turn up and turn the pedals really fast. Tarmac, grass, mud....its all the same, just turn the pedals really fast and i'll go really fast, right?

Anyway, long story short....at the end of the first lap i'd fell off more times in 15 minutes than i had in the previous 3 seasons on the road and been lapped by at least half the field. By the end of the race there were only 5 of the 40 strong field who hadn't lapped me at least once, 3 of them were DNF's but lets not dwell on the minor details.

It was my first and last cyclocross race. To this day i still don't understand it....my heart rate was maxed out or close to it for an hour. I was turning the pedals really really fast...yet i was as good as dead last to a field of clearly inferior cyclists :lol: They must have all been doping and/or using motors on that day.

But yeah...Froome should have won that MTB race, without breaking sweat

 

[gillan1969]

@brownbobby
are you even a cyclist? have you ever cycled with anyone insanely good? Froome isn't just (allegedly) insanely good...he's actually one of the most remarkable human specimens the world has even seen at turning pedals fast....only...when asked to turn pedals fast when younger...he, sort of, never....

glad I could help with that

PS he didn't finish, like 5th...he got lapped...that's my level

Yeah...i've ridden a bike once or twice, i even managed to be competitive for a few years at regional league level. I mean i was never in danger of having to give up the day job, but i was ok....does that make me a cyclist?

A few years back, to pass the time during the winter, i decided to have a go at a cyclocross race....i mean how hard could it be...the people who were regularly winning races and leading the winter league were at least one or two categories below me on the road, all i had to do was borrow a mates bike (wasn't quite the right size, but close enough), turn up and turn the pedals really fast. Tarmac, grass, mud....its all the same, just turn the pedals really fast and i'll go really fast, right?

Anyway, long story short....at the end of the first lap i'd fell off more times in 15 minutes than i had in the previous 3 seasons on the road and been lapped by at least half the field. By the end of the race there were only 5 of the 40 strong field who hadn't lapped me at least once, 3 of them were DNF's but lets not dwell on the minor details.

It was my first and last cyclocross race. To this day i still don't understand it....my heart rate was maxed out or close to it for an hour. I was turning the pedals really really fast...yet i was as good as dead last to a field of clearly inferior cyclists :lol: They must have all been doping and/or using motors on that day.

But yeah...Froome should have won that MTB race, without breaking sweat

yeah...cross is brutal

He wouldn't have won the Commie Games MTB..there were some world class riders riding...but the lapped is about the same status as his legendary win in the atomic jock race...it shows a proficient level of (world class) cycling ability only....not someone at the extremes of human physiology..

I'll ask again (i think we have identied the 2nd at the UK TT champs as showing he was not totally useless)....

Point me to one performance that you would expect from a full time bike rider (4 and a half in the Euro pro peloton) where he produced one performance, just one, which would suggest he was at the upper end of human physiology......just one?

 

[macbindle]

43rd (out of 70) in the 2007 under-23 WC TT?

Will that do?

 

[brownbobby]

@brownbobby
are you even a cyclist? have you ever cycled with anyone insanely good? Froome isn't just (allegedly) insanely good...he's actually one of the most remarkable human specimens the world has even seen at turning pedals fast....only...when asked to turn pedals fast when younger...he, sort of, never....

glad I could help with that

PS he didn't finish, like 5th...he got lapped...that's my level

Yeah...i've ridden a bike once or twice, i even managed to be competitive for a few years at regional league level. I mean i was never in danger of having to give up the day job, but i was ok....does that make me a cyclist?

A few years back, to pass the time during the winter, i decided to have a go at a cyclocross race....i mean how hard could it be...the people who were regularly winning races and leading the winter league were at least one or two categories below me on the road, all i had to do was borrow a mates bike (wasn't quite the right size, but close enough), turn up and turn the pedals really fast. Tarmac, grass, mud....its all the same, just turn the pedals really fast and i'll go really fast, right?

Anyway, long story short....at the end of the first lap i'd fell off more times in 15 minutes than i had in the previous 3 seasons on the road and been lapped by at least half the field. By the end of the race there were only 5 of the 40 strong field who hadn't lapped me at least once, 3 of them were DNF's but lets not dwell on the minor details.

It was my first and last cyclocross race. To this day i still don't understand it....my heart rate was maxed out or close to it for an hour. I was turning the pedals really really fast...yet i was as good as dead last to a field of clearly inferior cyclists :lol: They must have all been doping and/or using motors on that day.

But yeah...Froome should have won that MTB race, without breaking sweat

yeah...cross is brutal

He wouldn't have won the Commie Games MTB..there were some world class riders riding...but the lapped is about the same status as his legendary win in the atomic jock race...it shows a proficient level of (world class) cycling ability only....not someone at the extremes of human physiology..

I'll ask again (i think we have identied the 2nd at the UK TT champs as showing he was not totally useless)....

Point me to one performance that you would expect from a full time bike rider (4 and a half in the Euro pro peloton) where he produced one performance, just one, which would suggest he was at the upper end of human physiology......just one?

As you know/we all know, results pre 2011 showing this don't really exist, but lab testing did show he was at the upper end of human physiology....not at the very pinnacle of it, but certainly at the upper end. But results in the lab didn't translate to results on the road.

More recent lab tests have been consistent with those earlier tests, there's been very little change in physiology (weight loss being the obvious exception) but the results on the road have never stopped coming...

So we return to the eternal question of what changed in 2011.....most people have their own version of the answer, none of us really know for sure ....

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

Just for balance (and I do agree Froome was a donkey, just for the record), the one positive result in his palmares pre-2011 imo is his 2nd place in the 2010 British TT, a respectable 1:22 behind Wiggins.
Obviously a stretch to claim that's a reasonable sign of GT domination, but plenty of cyclists never get to that level.

Painting Froome as some kind of delusional Eddie the Eagle is an exaggeration also. He was a middle-of-the-pack domestique, but he wasn't a hopeless village idiot. He did know how to race a bike at least on a mediocre euro-pro level, and if Sky had kicked him out in 2011 he would have found another place somewhere.

Middle of the pack at lower level races, sure.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta
Dumoulin - 2nd year pro - 41st in the Tour
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour

This looks very consistent. It''s certain that Froome is the equal of his contemporaries at this point. Of course none of the others had their team fold soon after.

I'll bite.

Froome - 2nd year pro - 35th in the Giro - Age 24, 2nd GT. Also pretty much the best result of his career until his 4th GT at age 26
Quintana - 2nd year pro - 36th in the Vuelta - Age 22, 1st GT. Finished second in his second GT at age 23
Roglic - 2nd year pro - 38th in the Tour - Won a time trial and a mountain stage in his first 2 GTs instead of riding GC
Contador - 3rd year pro - 31st in the Tour - Age 22, 1st GT. Won his second GT at age 24

I won't defend Dumoulin, but the guys above are quite clearly not equal. Even excluding results in non-GTs.

 

[Jagartrott]

Interesting interview with Bruyneel in a Belgian newspaper. He says that thinks the TUIs with Sky are rather suspicious. He specifically names the Tour de Romandie 2014, where Froome was first too sick to start, then got a fast tracked TUI for Prednisolone, then ends up winning the race.