Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Michelle Cound deleted her Twitter. What happened?

http://favstar.fm/users/michellecound/recent

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

nice nitpicking. Im talking about the sky doping era.

in 2012 and 2013 there was no doubt who was going to win the tour at this time of the year.

But then you should quantify. When did the Sky doping era begun? In June 2011 (before the TdF with Wiggins as Cap) or Spt 2011, or with the start of 2012?
Without that clarification, you can´t blame a poster of nitpicking...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

And while Wiggins' transformation from the grupetto may predate Dr. Geert, others at the team do not.

Who are the others, besides Froome in your opinion?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

WTF? Wigans crushed the Dauphine, Flecha and Hayman had a very solid classics campaign, EBH had an a awesome TdF with 2 stage wins, a few more placings and a good final TT.

Then there was Froome and Wigans at the Vuelta. The only thing that really went wrong was Wigans crashing out of the Tour

Wow! That´s something new... Even EBH got his "transformation" at Sky. It´s getting more grotesque by the minute.

 

[timmers]

Wow! That´s something new... Even EBH got his "transformation" at Sky. It´s getting more grotesque by the minute.

I have always thought that EBH is the most overrated rider on Sky as the hype was he was going to win, perhaps not everything but, a lot! So he is under performing on Leinders programme?

Also what I can't understand is was Leinders employed to dope the riders or to make sure they didn't test positive? Or do both I suppose but he was only there for a short time so who is the current magician? Ellingworth doesn't appear to have the goods so is it Kerrison? Dear Wiggo is in the loop in Aussie what does he think?

42x12ss was upping the track riders from Perth the other day and he denigrates Wiggins who has achieved sh!t lots on the track relative to the Aussies he mentioned. I like Travis Meyer but Garmin gave him the flick so he's riding proconti? Funnily I understand that the track Brits used to train in Perth in years gone by at sea level!!!

 

[martinvickers]

Government lawyers are a truly and necessary valued asset to public administration. The civil servant part of this implies you are both civil and a servant to the public.

In the Forum especially the Clinic you can be whatever you want, civilly uncivil or uncivilly civil and you do not have to be a servant to anyone except your own views. Your comments are valued.

Please just don't become, and I am not saying you have, what we call some civil servants in Canada - snivelling servants.

You are too kind. I can assure you I am anything but a 'snivelling' servan'. I am, even if I say so myself, a right pain in the backside of my 'masters', a fact I admit to taking a certain perverse pleasure in.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Who are the others, besides Froome in your opinion?

Wiggins' second transformation, from competitor in long TTs and follower in the mountains to dominant TT rider and leader in the mountains.

Porte's transition from being a guy who places in the top 10 of the Giro but loses 5 minutes in every major mountain stage to the guy that posts mountain time trial times that Sean Kelly laughs at.

Lars Petter Nordhaug, from 6th in an Italian 1.1 race and 7th on the Col de l'Ospedale as only notable results in 2011 to ranking in the top 50 in the world, winning World Tour races and contending for GC at races like País Vasco in 2012

Mick Rogers transformation first from quality rider with HTC to scrub in 2011, then into rider posting his best ever numbers in 2012 despite having doped throughout his career and being well into his 30s.

David López García, posting results of the kind he only got with Caisse and Euskaltel when he was fully independent (like in 2011 when a series of calamities befell Movistar so that they had no leaders), yet as a bit part player in an ensemble cast often spending energy as a domestique.

All of these had marked improvements with Sky in either 2012 or 2013. There are others whose results also improved, such as Urán or Stannard, without them being as jarring a contrast with their previous performances, so are much more easy to buy as being natural improvements. I've also omitted Thomas, whose results in 2013 obliterate those from 2012, because of the Olympic focus, as his 2013 results show fairly reasonable progression from his 2010 and 2011 results, so I don't see anything untoward there.

Sure, none of them have transformed the way Froome did, but there are a few riders whose results - and more importantly performances - have far outstripped what they had previously been capable of.

 

[Nathan12]

Wiggins' second transformation, from competitor in long TTs and follower in the mountains to dominant TT rider and leader in the mountains.

Porte's transition from being a guy who places in the top 10 of the Giro but loses 5 minutes in every major mountain stage to the guy that posts mountain time trial times that Sean Kelly laughs at.

Lars Petter Nordhaug, from 6th in an Italian 1.1 race and 7th on the Col de l'Ospedale as only notable results in 2011 to ranking in the top 50 in the world, winning World Tour races and contending for GC at races like País Vasco in 2012

Mick Rogers transformation first from quality rider with HTC to scrub in 2011, then into rider posting his best ever numbers in 2012 despite having doped throughout his career and being well into his 30s.

David López García, posting results of the kind he only got with Caisse and Euskaltel when he was fully independent (like in 2011 when a series of calamities befell Movistar so that they had no leaders), yet as a bit part player in an ensemble cast often spending energy as a domestique.

All of these had marked improvements with Sky in either 2012 or 2013. There are others whose results also improved, such as Urán or Stannard, without them being as jarring a contrast with their previous performances, so are much more easy to buy as being natural improvements. I've also omitted Thomas, whose results in 2013 obliterate those from 2012, because of the Olympic focus, as his 2013 results show fairly reasonable progression from his 2010 and 2011 results, so I don't see anything untoward there.

Sure, none of them have transformed the way Froome did, but there are a few riders whose results - and more importantly performances - have far outstripped what they had previously been capable of.

Add Kennaugh too. He was the guy who lost all the weight before the 2013 Tour. Brailsford got particularly tetchy when asked about that.

 

[EnacheV]

Sure, none of them have transformed the way Froome did, but there are a few riders whose results - and more importantly performances - have far outstripped what they had previously been capable of.

So for them to be ok they should not progress at all. Makes sense. Lol you are funny.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I have always thought that EBH is the most overrated rider on Sky as the hype was he was going to win, perhaps not everything but, a lot! So he is under performing on Leinders programme?

You know, EBH got a 10-day transfo to "dominate" the 11 classics, then Leinders used all his tricks on Froome solely... And b4 I forget it; Wiggins transfo at the trademark clean team GAR was a false flag coup. In reality it was Leinders and Sky doing the trick in secrecy between GAR races...

Also what I can't understand is was Leinders employed to dope the riders or to make sure they didn't test positive? Or do both I suppose but he was only there for a short time so who is the current magician? Ellingworth doesn't appear to have the goods so is it Kerrison? Dear Wiggo is in the loop in Aussie what does he think?

It´s a mix of everything. As long it fits the 10.000 page theories...

You know Sky brought doping back, thus CH had to go back in time to win before they start to dominate. They used a season in secrecy but CH knew all about it thus doped b4 them... Porte , Kiryienka, Rogers, Kness, EBH, etc. were all back fodder and exploded the day they dressed the Sky kits. Did I forgot something?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Wiggins' second transformation, from competitor in long TTs and follower in the mountains to dominant TT rider and leader in the mountains.

Porte's transition from being a guy who places in the top 10 of the Giro but loses 5 minutes in every major mountain stage to the guy that posts mountain time trial times that Sean Kelly laughs at.

Lars Petter Nordhaug, from 6th in an Italian 1.1 race and 7th on the Col de l'Ospedale as only notable results in 2011 to ranking in the top 50 in the world, winning World Tour races and contending for GC at races like País Vasco in 2012

Mick Rogers transformation first from quality rider with HTC to scrub in 2011, then into rider posting his best ever numbers in 2012 despite having doped throughout his career and being well into his 30s.

David López García, posting results of the kind he only got with Caisse and Euskaltel when he was fully independent (like in 2011 when a series of calamities befell Movistar so that they had no leaders), yet as a bit part player in an ensemble cast often spending energy as a domestique.

All of these had marked improvements with Sky in either 2012 or 2013. There are others whose results also improved, such as Urán or Stannard, without them being as jarring a contrast with their previous performances, so are much more easy to buy as being natural improvements. I've also omitted Thomas, whose results in 2013 obliterate those from 2012, because of the Olympic focus, as his 2013 results show fairly reasonable progression from his 2010 and 2011 results, so I don't see anything untoward there.

Sure, none of them have transformed the way Froome did, but there are a few riders whose results - and more importantly performances - have far outstripped what they had previously been capable of.

I just mentioned it some days ago, and we have been trou this before. In last summer I was going trou the most important Sky riders and pretty much debunked the myth that all of them (outside Froome) exploded at Sky (before the hair splitting contest begins; I didn´t examine Nordhaug). I don´t wanna repeat everything all over again... But anyway, lets leave it like that. You won´t change my mind (I love hard facts/results), I won´t yours.
Nevertheless, I always appreciate your posts, b/c you are one of the few who back up your arguments (I especially liked the Mosq "battles"), and don´t come with fanciful theories, or worse lie about things posters allegedly said.
Thumbs up.

 

[Justinr]

So for them to be ok they should not progress at all. Makes sense. Lol you are funny.

This ^ ...

 

[analogue17]

Well based on what I've read on the thread, any rider has two ways: either one shows his talent in young age and gets sort of indulgence to use doping the whole career and to be as a great champion or one cannot open himself up for some reason and hence he must humbly suck at the back of the peloton. It's the line of many who posts there.

The funniest thing is Froome wins the Tour people, who now thinks that all the things fall into place at last, will be shocked even more. It will entail even more disappointment and hatred to Froome.

I even tend to like Sky in a way because the team constructed a brilliant fable: you shouln't train, you shouldn't have any talent, you shouldn't be hard-working, just go to Sky and they'll make a Tour winner out of you. It is a diabolic delusion but many folks prefer to reason this way.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So for them to be ok they should not progress at all. Makes sense. Lol you are funny.

So you missed the paragraph where I said that Thomas, Stannard and Urán all also made progress, but this seemed more natural and in order than the sudden jumps?

Using CQ:
Rigoberto Urán (born 1987)
2009 (Caisse) 239
2010 (Caisse) 412
2011 (Sky) 759
2012 (Sky) 1162

Seems fully reasonable to me. Consistently progressing as he matures as a rider and physically into his mid-20s. Totally reasonable. And when you look at his CQ points graph to that point, you see pretty consistent gradual improvement, as you might expect.

Lars Petter Nordhaug (born 1984)
2008 (Joker) 109
2009 (Joker) 149
2010 (Sky) 51
2011 (Sky) 182
2012 (Sky) 827

That is a much bigger jump in level, which doesn't look like a natural progression so much, because although 2010 was much lower than previous, he was mainly domestiquing and racing bigger races than he had done with Joker. However 2008, 2009 and 2011 (when he was 27 so theoretically approaching peak) are fairly consistent, then suddenly he scores 4x as many points.

Nordhaug's CQ points graph to 2012, therefore, looks like a Javier Guillén stage profile.

Now, I will point out that I like LPN, and I defended him as a good quality rider who deserved a WT opportunity when some said he was only getting a ride for being friends with EBH. But there can be no doubting that that progression in 2012 was unexpected, sharp and not in line with expectation based on the rest of his career.

As for Froome, the 2011 Vuelta then domestiquing for Wiggins makes his three year progression 2011-12-13 seem not entirely unreasonable... but when you consider that in 2011, before the stage to La Covatilla on August 28th here are Chris' CQ points performances in 2011 reproduced in full:
- 5 points for finishing Volta a Catalunya (61st)
- 12 points for finishing 14th in the Vuelta a Castilla y León
- 1 point for finishing 8th to Leysin in the Tour de Romandie
- 34 points for finishing 15th in the Tour de Romandie
- 5 points for finishing the Tour de Suisse (47th)
- 5 points for finishing the Tour de Pologne (85th)

Total: 62

Total at the end of the year: 779
For comparison, the points totals he had in other years to August 28th:
- 2007: 77 (yes, he was having a better year than 2011 to that point even with Konica Minolta)
- 2008: 185
- 2009: 147
- 2010: 96

Obviously with 2011 being the first time he did the Vuelta that's a difficult measure to take, but that 2011 to that point was his worst year to date in terms of points scoring performances is hard to ignore. And it wasn't like he was building form either. Shall we compare with Cobo? I think we shall.

Cobo's points scoring performances to August 28th 2011:
- 5 points for being 20th in a February 1-day race in Italy
- 60 points for being 8th & 3rd in two of the Trofeo Mallorca races.
- 5 points for finishing País Vasco (95th)
- 5 points for being 12th in the Ordizia one-day race
- 19 points for being top 20 in San Sebastián
- 6 points for being 5th in two puncheur finishes in the Vuelta a Burgos
- 15 points for being 2nd in the Lagunas de Neila MTF in the Vuelta a Burgos
- 98 points for being 3rd in the Vuelta a Burgos GC

Total: 213

Now, there are huge gaps in that; after 65 points picked up in insignificant pre-season races, there's then nearly 2 months before his next points; there's then a gap of 3 months before his next. However, in the Vuelta's warmup races he scored 143 points, more than double Froome's tally for the year. At the Vuelta's traditional warmup race (Burgos), he was highly visible throughout and finished on the podium.

Again: Cobo's case is complex. He has shady teams in his history, but so does Froome. He has a medical history that can explain his fluctuating performance levels just as Froome does. But his turning into a guy who contends Grand Tours is far less out there than Froome's having done so. Cobo had been top 10 of the Vuelta two years earlier, remember. With Fuji-Servetto too, so without much support.

The difference is, Cobo has gone back to struggling (returning to a team where he had a torrid time in 2010 probably didn't help), whereas Froome has continued his exponential rise to the point where those 2011 Vuelta performances are actually kind of quaint in their level, a reminder of the days when Froome had transformed his level to such an extent as to be ridiculous, yet was still mortal and beatable.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Come on Libertine you can do better... don´t go the path guys were going to say EBH had a transfo at Sky.
I mean Uran is almost as absurd. Everybody knew was is coming. The colobians anyhow, but even between the experts, even between the casual and hardcore fans at the RR thread it was clear it´s only a matter of time. Blame it on Sky?

 

[red_flanders]

Let's see, what is a more logical argument?

So for them to be ok they should not progress at all. Makes sense. Lol you are funny.

Or...

So you missed the paragraph where I said that Thomas, Stannard and Urán all also made progress, but this seemed more natural and in order than the sudden jumps?

Using CQ:
Rigoberto Urán (born 1987)
2009 (Caisse) 239
2010 (Caisse) 412
2011 (Sky) 759
2012 (Sky) 1162

Seems fully reasonable to me. Consistently progressing as he matures as a rider and physically into his mid-20s. Totally reasonable. And when you look at his CQ points graph to that point, you see pretty consistent gradual improvement, as you might expect.



Lars Petter Nordhaug (born 1984)
2008 (Joker) 109
2009 (Joker) 149
2010 (Sky) 51
2011 (Sky) 182
2012 (Sky) 827

That is a much bigger jump in level, which doesn't look like a natural progression so much, because although 2010 was much lower than previous, he was mainly domestiquing and racing bigger races than he had done with Joker. However 2008, 2009 and 2011 (when he was 27 so theoretically approaching peak) are fairly consistent, then suddenly he scores 4x as many points.

Nordhaug's CQ points graph to 2012, therefore, looks like a Javier Guillén stage profile.



Now, I will point out that I like LPN, and I defended him as a good quality rider who deserved a WT opportunity when some said he was only getting a ride for being friends with EBH. But there can be no doubting that that progression in 2012 was unexpected, sharp and not in line with expectation based on the rest of his career.

As for Froome, the 2011 Vuelta then domestiquing for Wiggins makes his three year progression 2011-12-13 seem not entirely unreasonable... but when you consider that in 2011, before the stage to La Covatilla on August 28th here are Chris' CQ points performances in 2011 reproduced in full:
- 5 points for finishing Volta a Catalunya (61st)
- 12 points for finishing 14th in the Vuelta a Castilla y León
- 1 point for finishing 8th to Leysin in the Tour de Romandie
- 34 points for finishing 15th in the Tour de Romandie
- 5 points for finishing the Tour de Suisse (47th)
- 5 points for finishing the Tour de Pologne (85th)

Total: 62

Total at the end of the year: 779
For comparison, the points totals he had in other years to August 28th:
- 2007: 77 (yes, he was having a better year than 2011 to that point even with Konica Minolta)
- 2008: 185
- 2009: 147
- 2010: 96

Obviously with 2011 being the first time he did the Vuelta that's a difficult measure to take, but that 2011 to that point was his worst year to date in terms of points scoring performances is hard to ignore. And it wasn't like he was building form either. Shall we compare with Cobo? I think we shall.

Cobo's points scoring performances to August 28th 2011:
- 5 points for being 20th in a February 1-day race in Italy
- 60 points for being 8th & 3rd in two of the Trofeo Mallorca races.
- 5 points for finishing País Vasco (95th)
- 5 points for being 12th in the Ordizia one-day race
- 19 points for being top 20 in San Sebastián
- 6 points for being 5th in two puncheur finishes in the Vuelta a Burgos
- 15 points for being 2nd in the Lagunas de Neila MTF in the Vuelta a Burgos
- 98 points for being 3rd in the Vuelta a Burgos GC

Total: 213

Now, there are huge gaps in that]

 

[Catwhoorg]

Michelle Cound deleted her Twitter. What happened?

Its back now. Protected but she tweeted again today.

 

[JRanton]

WTF? Wigans crushed the Dauphine, Flecha and Hayman had a very solid classics campaign, EBH had an a awesome TdF with 2 stage wins, a few more placings and a good final TT.

Then there was Froome and Wigans at the Vuelta. The only thing that really went wrong was Wigans crashing out of the Tour

Yup, they had a very good 2011. Finished as CQ team winners and 2nd behind Lotto (effectively Gilbert) in the WT team rankings:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?current=0&year=2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_UCI_World_Tour

 

[42x16ss]

I have always thought that EBH is the most overrated rider on Sky as the hype was he was going to win, perhaps not everything but, a lot! So he is under performing on Leinders programme?

Also what I can't understand is was Leinders employed to dope the riders or to make sure they didn't test positive? Or do both I suppose but he was only there for a short time so who is the current magician? Ellingworth doesn't appear to have the goods so is it Kerrison? Dear Wiggo is in the loop in Aussie what does he think?

42x12ss was upping the track riders from Perth the other day and he denigrates Wiggins who has achieved sh!t lots on the track relative to the Aussies he mentioned. I like Travis Meyer but Garmin gave him the flick so he's riding proconti? Funnily I understand that the track Brits used to train in Perth in years gone by at sea level!!!

I was responding to comments that Sky apparently had a poor 2011, therefore Leinders couldn't be there to establish a program. They most certainly did not have a poor year, as you half admit yourself - don't twist my words . It seems the main reason Sky fans seem to think he is overrated is because they didn't seem to know who he was prior to 2012

Maybe it's possible that Leinders was there long enough to impart his knowledge and put a program in place? That's what quite a few of us have been saying for a while now, as he only had a short term contract with the squad. Maybe Leinders only had to point out some flaws?

My comments re: track riders, that was made in the Tenerife thread, regarding the relative isolation of Perth compared to Tenerife (Perth is actually twice as far from a WADA accredited lab!). I was actually validating another posters comments, saying that there has been a very disproportionate spike of International class track riders recently from a very small talent pool. If you look at the riders I listed, apart from Cam Meyer, all are 24 and under and medalled at multiple WC's. Also, take a look at Trav Meyer's junior and U23 career in the pursuit - let's just say that he is probably underachieving on the road.

 

[Ripper]

So for them to be ok they should not progress at all. Makes sense. Lol you are funny.

And you are not. Are you 12?

 

[sniper]

Michelle does have balls. On Contador:

Seu favoritismo já despertou reações, como a de Michelle Cound, noiva de Chris Froome, que comentou via Twitter: “Quem sabe um ex-dopado ganhe o Tour este ano. Pelo menos estará qualificado para responder a todas as questões sobre doping.”

http://www.bikemagazine.com.br/2014/04/novo-treinador-de-contador-e-ficha-suja-e-ex-sky/

 

[Nathan12]

"Bradley has three hugely-experienced riders there to support him in Kurt-Asle Arvesen, Dario Cioni and Xabier Zandio, while Thomas Löfkvist is also a veteran of nine Grand Tours despite his relatively young age.
"Chris Froome and Ian Stannard’s inclusion demonstrates once again the depth of British talent we have in the squad, while Morris Possoni and Chris Sutton have also impressed us again this season with their respective climbing and sprint capabilities."

From pre-Vuelta 2011. Lol. They had no idea what he was going to do.

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,22762_7105569,00.html#HsKt0zkfuvOAml7x.99

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

From the same article:
"Chris Froome
A versatile rider who packs a mean punch in both the mountains and time trials. Froome has already claimed top-10 finishes at the Tours of Switzerland, Romandie and Castilla y Leon this season.
"

 

[Nathan12]

From the same article:
"Chris Froome
A versatile rider who packs a mean punch in both the mountains and time trials. Froome has already claimed top-10 finishes at the Tours of Switzerland, Romandie and Castilla y Leon this season.
"

That doesn't excuse the main slant of the article- which is that they weren't even taking him as a mountain domestique. It would be tragic if it weren't so hilarious.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Just posted it, to level out the usual one-sided-cherry-picking-posts. You know, I am for a level field.