Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

rick james said:
if said before for all I know froome and sky are doping,we don't know one way or the other but I know that you know as much as me..and that must really get to you
<shrug> I gave objective proof that something changed that let Froome go from zero to hero in a very short time span. Given a list of explanations (and team Froome has given quite the list), the explanation that fits best is dope and lots of.

John Swanson
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

rick james said:
Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
red_flanders said:
Oh he's fooled plenty of people.
yip if only the world of sport had their eyes open, the sense of superiority is strong
the sense of superiority is strong, yeah from the likes of Sky and Froome thinking people are stupid.

But as Red says, some are fooled, ey rick?
if said before for all I know froome and sky are doping,we don't know one way or the other but I know that you know as much as me..and that must really get to you
If you truly understood my position rather than your tactics, you'd understand that i feel the riders are the bottom rung of the doping ladder and my real ire is for the likes of Cookson and those in Aigle. I have sympathy for riders, but i hate their hypocrisy.

I know more than you. Sky are doping, Froome is doping. That is a given.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
red_flanders said:
Oh he's fooled plenty of people.
yip if only the world of sport had their eyes open, the sense of superiority is strong
the sense of superiority is strong, yeah from the likes of Sky and Froome thinking people are stupid.

But as Red says, some are fooled, ey rick?
if said before for all I know froome and sky are doping,we don't know one way or the other but I know that you know as much as me..and that must really get to you
If you truly understood my position rather than your tactics, you'd understand that i feel the riders are the bottom rung of the doping ladder and my real ire is for the likes of Cookson and those in Aigle. I have sympathy for riders, but i hate their hypocrisy.

I know more than you. Sky are doping, Froome is doping. That is a given.
no you don't, you're are taking a stab in the dark and hoping its true.....
 
Re: Re:

rick james said:
The Hitch said:
thehog said:
ScienceIsCool said:
rick james said:
guess work on your part


and how could he offer Froome to Trek when he isn't under contract with sky next year....Christ on a bike you lot just don't get it
Unless you're at the top of the sport, you're not sorting through contract offers...

You get shopped to a team? You rejoice that you don't have to spend months wondering if you're still going to be a pro cyclist next year. If they bought your contract, they obviously want to extend.

And it doesn't have to be a straight up swap of riders. Clearing space on your roster early means you can have a bit extra in the bank to snag a rider that you need before someone else does. Let's say ike a new leadout specialist or something. Having a big budget sprinter on your team is worthless unless you can get rider X who is young, fast, and undervalued at the moment.

John Swanson
And Bruyneel confirmed it on Twitter;


Cheque mate
what the hell are you talking about? I never said it wasn't true, I said it was stupid on sky part to try and offload a rider to another team when he was out of contact anyway and the riders future wasn't sky's problem ...what is hard to understand about that?

Backtracking?
 
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
 
Re: Re:

rick james said:
Benotti69 said:
rick james said:
red_flanders said:
Oh he's fooled plenty of people.
yip if only the world of sport had their eyes open, the sense of superiority is strong
the sense of superiority is strong, yeah from the likes of Sky and Froome thinking people are stupid.

But as Red says, some are fooled, ey rick?
if said before for all I know froome and sky are doping,we don't know one way or the other but I know that you know as much as me..and that must really get to you
What are you? Some comic book super hero mind reader who has hacked into bennotis brain through the internet? No? Then the above quote is totally false.

You do not in fact know what information bennoti has or does not have. You probably don't know who he is. You also do not know how intelligent he his and whether he is able to process and different parts of information in a better or worse way than you (though judging by your claim to omniscience, I would bet on the latter).
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
6 days before the Vuelta, Froome (far right) rode the Olympic test event in London. He was helping Cavendish, dropped early and rolled in 118th 7 minutes down on the shortened course.

 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
red_flanders said:
thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
6 days before the Vuelta, Froome (far right) rode the Olympic test event in London. He was helping Cavendish, dropped early and rolled in 118th 7 minutes down on the shortened course.

So actually he made the transformation in 6 days. Interesting - what drug(s) could do that? EPO, Aicar?? Don't think anyone has ever claimed it could work that quick have they? And of course there would be the glow time ...
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Spud I dont think Froome himself was aware what was about to happen. If you look at some testimony from books etc many dopers had a testing phase in wich performance was not a steady increase in performance at first, but rather a «learn to dope» process. My bet is Froome got lucky, and then sought real pro help to keep it up.

All speculation of course, but the scenario that pure motivation and suddenly discovering no more badzilla is speculation as well.
 
Re:

mrhender said:
Spud I dont think Froome himself was aware what was about to happen. If you look at some testimony from books etc many dopers had a testing phase in wich performance was not a steady increase in performance at first, but rather a «learn to dope» process. My bet is Froome got lucky, and then sought real pro help to keep it up.

All speculation of course, but the scenario that pure motivation and suddenly discovering no more badzilla is speculation as well.
of course :lol:
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Just being honest.

History shows that you rarely get the full story in present times, but rather its a puzzle being assembled over years, if ever.

Do you have a more plausible scenario than mine?
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Personally I think Bermon (IAAf btw) who was Froomes personal doctor, then suddenly not (and removed from iaaf websites) - played a role in all of this.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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The burden of proof is on the accuser. I agree.
I never claimed to hold such proof, but you have to be honest and really consider what is most likely.

I guess I dont believe in fairytales.
 
Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
thehog said:
red_flanders said:
thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
6 days before the Vuelta, Froome (far right) rode the Olympic test event in London. He was helping Cavendish, dropped early and rolled in 118th 7 minutes down on the shortened course.

So actually he made the transformation in 6 days. Interesting - what drug(s) could do that? EPO, Aicar?? Don't think anyone has ever claimed it could work that quick have they? And of course there would be the glow time ...

Fitness in a pill. GW1516 & AICAR:

Not only that, but when GW1516 is combined with another “fitness in a pill” compound, AICAR, it can create endurance benefits far greater than either compound in isolation.

AICAR activates so-called AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) which stimulates glucose uptake by skeletal muscle cells. The mice that were given AICAR by Evans and his team were able to run 44% further than the mice that didn’t get the drug. Most startling of all, the mice saw that 44% benefit without doing any training.

It’s for this reason that AICAR (and GW1516 as well) was heralded as “exercise in a pill” and the reason that it has potential as a performance-enhancing drug.
https://cyclingtips.com/2013/04/the-new-epo-gw1516-aicar-and-their-use-in-cycling/
 
Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
thehog said:
red_flanders said:
thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?

......the defence is not going very well.

I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
6 days before the Vuelta, Froome (far right) rode the Olympic test event in London. He was helping Cavendish, dropped early and rolled in 118th 7 minutes down on the shortened course.

So actually he made the transformation in 6 days. Interesting - what drug(s) could do that? EPO, Aicar?? Don't think anyone has ever claimed it could work that quick have they? And of course there would be the glow time ...
The fact that he had a poor (or typically non-leadership) result in the Olympics does not mean his form was bad. There are many possible reasons why he may have been strong a week after a race in which he didn't have a result. The most likely include not going for the win. The least likely include magic dope that allows you gain form in a few days.

And a motor doesn't explain it either. No one on Sky had any idea of his form and he was a late entry into the race. Simple explanation is that he had been loading up for a while and got into a race where his form could shine, one with a lot of long, difficult climbs.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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It's simple. Everybody has an off day. But their abilities are rapidly apparent and you can set a baseline. Lower than that? Sure. It's all backed up by lab tests. One simply does not have "on" or "good" days that exceed those abilities.

Unless something a bit extra has been added.

John Swanson

edit: spelling
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
TheSpud said:
quote="red_flanders"]
thehog said:
The Hegelian said:
So do I have this right: the source found to prove that people were talking about pre-Vuelta Froome as a potential GT contender actually talks about Kennaugh?

That's an absolute classic.

And the denial that Froome was offered to Brunyeel by DB was directly refuted by Bruyneel himself?




I’ve brought this up before, Froome actually travelled to London and Manchester between Tour of Poland and the transformation at the Vuelta. The only drug that can give you “fitness in a pill” is GW501516 and AICAR. My suspicion is something occurred in those 3 weeks.
If I recall correctly, John Swanson's data points to a jump at around the Tour du Suisse timeframe of 2011. Anyone could be, would be likely to be soft-pedaling the Tour of Poland. Also quite possible it was a blood bag extraction time frame for him.
6 days before the Vuelta, Froome (far right) rode the Olympic test event in London. He was helping Cavendish, dropped early and rolled in 118th 7 minutes down on the shortened course.

So actually he made the transformation in 6 days. Interesting - what drug(s) could do that? EPO, Aicar?? Don't think anyone has ever claimed it could work that quick have they? And of course there would be the glow time ...

Fitness in a pill. GW1516 & AICAR:

Not only that, but when GW1516 is combined with another “fitness in a pill” compound, AICAR, it can create endurance benefits far greater than either compound in isolation.

AICAR activates so-called AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) which stimulates glucose uptake by skeletal muscle cells. The mice that were given AICAR by Evans and his team were able to run 44% further than the mice that didn’t get the drug. Most startling of all, the mice saw that 44% benefit without doing any training.

It’s for this reason that AICAR (and GW1516 as well) was heralded as “exercise in a pill” and the reason that it has potential as a performance-enhancing drug.

Isn't there a test for AICAR, as early as 2012/2013 ? Apparently it is very easy to test for so how does he avoid a positive, UCI collusion ? If he is I doubt it is that.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-samples-to-be-tested-for-aicar/
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Last time I checked there is a complex urine test for Aicar, approved since 2013.
So no problem for Froome 2011+2012.
Moreover, the only lab doing the tests is Cologne.
To my knowledge (correct me if wrong) UCI under Cookson have systematically ignored the Cologne lab sending their samples to Malabry and Lausanne instead.
So no problem for Froome 2013-present either.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Last time I checked there is a complex urine test for Aicar, approved since 2013.
So no problem for Froome 2011+2012.
Moreover, the only lab doing the tests is Cologne.
To my knowledge (correct me if wrong) UCI under Cookson have systematically ignored the Cologne lab sending their samples to Malabry and Lausanne instead.
So no problem for Froome 2013-present either.
Exactly. Clear that is was used the 2011 and 2012, perhaps in 2013. The change in body shape especially 2012 was astounding. 2013 I see a mix pre-Tour and a motor used on Ventoux.
 

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