Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Susan Westemeyer]

it's OVER

What is over and why???

 

[pastronef]

it's OVER

What is over and why???

I think he means it´s over for SKY. Cookson gone and they will win nothing from now on

 

[telencefalus]

it's OVER

What is over and why???

I think he means it´s over for SKY. Cookson gone and they will win nothing from now on

this is very WRONG , if Brad speaks it 's really over , i mean sky will not exist anymore in that case

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

This is actually my thoughts as well. Leppartient seems less sympathetic to BC and Sky than Cookson and McQuaid, if so Badzhilla Boy and co. might face a touch more scrutiny.

Do you have any examples of this?

the only examples are him wanting to ban tramadol (and the immediate thought of the clinic members that JUST Sky abuses it) and race radios (same thing as tramadol)

there are no other examples for the moment. him being less sympathetic is still a wish, not a fact.

He has also proposed a ban on corticosteroids. Relevant to Sky given their sham TUE history and abuse of corticosteroids out of competition.

Give Sky's alleged cortico abuse this proposal will have zero impact as it doesn't really stop OOC abuse. Again, he's just taking the MPCC guidelines - which ASO have applauded - and talking about making them rules. With one notable difference: he is not proposing a cortisol test with a mandatory stand-down period. Or, in simple language: it's business as usual for OOC abuse.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Give Sky's alleged cortico abuse this proposal will have zero impact as it doesn't really stop OOC abuse. Again, he's just taking the MPCC guidelines - which ASO have applauded - and talking about making them rules. With one notable difference: he is not proposing a cortisol test with a mandatory stand-down period. Or, in simple language: it's business as usual for OOC abuse.

It's really about who has the balance of power. For the national federations (read Olympics), it's the UCI. For pro sports, it's really the ASO and whatever big money is in play at the time. UCi only has legitimacy because of the Olympics, but wants a piece of pro sports $$$, so they walk a tightrope. Meh.

John Swanson

 

[Angliru]

it's OVER

What is over and why???

I think he means it´s over for SKY. Cookson gone and they will win nothing from now on

This is twice that questions asked of another were answered by someone else as if this someone else is clairvoyant and can read the minds of those that made the original statements. Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours? It could prove to be quite lucrative.

 

[42x16ss]

it's OVER

What is over and why???

I think he means it´s over for SKY. Cookson gone and they will win nothing from now on

This is twice that questions asked of another were answered by someone else as if this someone else is clairvoyant and can read the minds of those that made the original statements. Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours? It could prove to be quite lucrative.

Thank you. As for my comment up the thread, I don’t think that the wheels will fall off Sky or Froome will crash and burn, just that they won’t be able to do things like use an inhaler a few minutes before smoking everyone on a final climb without a somewhat plausible explanation.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Presented without comment. Marca.

Remember your first Vuelta in 2011. Are you still saying that your result [second in front of team leader Bradley Wiggins] was unexpected?

"Yes for sure. When that Vuelta began, my willingness to help the team leader, Bradley Wiggins, in the mountains was clear. After the first big mountain, I felt good, I was comfortable with the riders out in front. 'It's not bad', I told myself and that's where my process began, when I saw that I could go with the leaders and that I belonged to that group, I knew I could compete in the best races."

Have you ever analysed as to why in that specific moment and place that 'click' happened, the click that changed everything?

"Yes. I have found many reasons. I had an illness for three years before because of the bilharzia, a water virus that I contracted in Africa. In 2011 that virus began to weaken, and I started to become healthy again. I did revisions every six months and repeated the treatment.

"Another reason is that I lost enough weight, two or three kilos and that made me go further in the mountains. I also believe that I benefited from the responsibility, I had to be close to my line manager, Bradley Wiggins. Not having to be in the breaks, I became more relaxed with him in the peloton, it gave me more consistency in the last ascent. It was the first time I ran fine in the final moments."

 

[yaco]

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

Presented without comment. Marca.

Remember your first Vuelta in 2011. Are you still saying that your result [second in front of team leader Bradley Wiggins] was unexpected?

"Yes for sure. When that Vuelta began, my willingness to help the team leader, Bradley Wiggins, in the mountains was clear. After the first big mountain, I felt good, I was comfortable with the riders out in front. 'It's not bad', I told myself and that's where my process began, when I saw that I could go with the leaders and that I belonged to that group, I knew I could compete in the best races."

Have you ever analysed as to why in that specific moment and place that 'click' happened, the click that changed everything?

"Yes. I have found many reasons. I had an illness for three years before because of the bilharzia, a water virus that I contracted in Africa. In 2011 that virus began to weaken, and I started to become healthy again. I did revisions every six months and repeated the treatment.

"Another reason is that I lost enough weight, two or three kilos and that made me go further in the mountains. I also believe that I benefited from the responsibility, I had to be close to my line manager, Bradley Wiggins. Not having to be in the breaks, I became more relaxed with him in the peloton, it gave me more consistency in the last ascent. It was the first time I ran fine in the final moments."

How nice.

Apparently froome does not rank his AdH 2008 himself, no?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

The whole thing drives me mental because THAT'S NOT HOW BILHARZIA WORKS. It's not even a virus. It's a parasite that has a short life cycle. The problems are short lived and the treatment is very effective.

John Swanson

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

This wouldn't be tested for without strong suspicion.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

This wouldn't be tested for without strong suspicion.

They would test for eggs in the stool. The eggs being laid by the long dead schistomes that could have had any effect on his performance. The eggs that can't hatch inside the body. If the eggs had any effect, it would have been irritation and inflammation of the lining of his intestines and/or kidneys. Blood in the urine kind of thing. Having this last for three (!!!) years without going to a doctor? Hahahaha. No.

John Swanson

 

[heart_attack_man]

Re:

Presented without comment. Marca.

Remember your first Vuelta in 2011. Are you still saying that your result [second in front of team leader Bradley Wiggins] was unexpected?

"Yes for sure. When that Vuelta began, my willingness to help the team leader, Bradley Wiggins, in the mountains was clear. After the first big mountain, I felt good, I was comfortable with the riders out in front. 'It's not bad', I told myself and that's where my process began, when I saw that I could go with the leaders and that I belonged to that group, I knew I could compete in the best races."

Have you ever analysed as to why in that specific moment and place that 'click' happened, the click that changed everything?

"Yes. I have found many reasons. I had an illness for three years before because of the bilharzia, a water virus that I contracted in Africa. In 2011 that virus began to weaken, and I started to become healthy again. I did revisions every six months and repeated the treatment.

"Another reason is that I lost enough weight, two or three kilos and that made me go further in the mountains. I also believe that I benefited from the responsibility, I had to be close to my line manager, Bradley Wiggins. Not having to be in the breaks, I became more relaxed with him in the peloton, it gave me more consistency in the last ascent. It was the first time I ran fine in the final moments."

LOL - November 2010 according to this article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-still-battling-parasitic-infection/

He couldn't lie straight in bed...

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

The whole thing drives me mental because THAT'S NOT HOW BILHARZIA WORKS. It's not even a virus. It's a parasite that has a short life cycle. The problems are short lived and the treatment is very effective.

John Swanson

This. I still remember the rather loud guffaw from my South African sis in law when I asked her about Froome (who she had never heard of) and his claims about bilharzia. A few of her friends had caught this as kids and were treated immediately after the symptoms emerged and recovered within WEEKS!! Her final comment was it really is no big deal and EASILY treated but we didn't go swimming there again. And yes she is medically trained with a degree from Joburg uni...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

This wouldn't be tested for without strong suspicion.

They would test for eggs in the stool. The eggs being laid by the long dead schistomes that could have had any effect on his performance. The eggs that can't hatch inside the body. If the eggs had any effect, it would have been irritation and inflammation of the lining of his intestines and/or kidneys. Blood in the urine kind of thing. Having this last for three (!!!) years without going to a doctor? Hahahaha. No.

John Swanson

You might want to check that...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

This wouldn't be tested for without strong suspicion.

They would test for eggs in the stool. The eggs being laid by the long dead schistomes that could have had any effect on his performance. The eggs that can't hatch inside the body. If the eggs had any effect, it would have been irritation and inflammation of the lining of his intestines and/or kidneys. Blood in the urine kind of thing. Having this last for three (!!!) years without going to a doctor? Hahahaha. No.

John Swanson

You might want to check that...

Holy cow, you're right! I thought it was just a few months, but apparently it's 2-5 years. However, the notion that they were hindering Froome is still preposterous. This is how the parasite manifests:

http://parasite.org.au/para-site/text/schistosoma-text.html

First you get swimmer's itch. Then you get a fever as you get a histological response to the first eggs. Then you might get a host of problems related to granulomas due to the eggs calcifying in the linings of your organs, intestines, etc. The first two symptoms are transient. If Froome had any of the chronic symptoms they would have been VERY troubling and he would have received medical care.

"Schistosomiasis (or bilharziasis) is unusual amongst helminth diseases for two reasons: much of the pathogenesis is due to the eggs (rather than larvae or adults); and most of the pathology is caused by host immune responses (delayed-type hypersensitivity and granulomatous reactions). The course of infection is often divided into three phases: migratory, acute and chronic. The migratory phase occurs when cercariae penetrate and migrate through the skin. This is often asymptomatic, but in sensitized patients, it may cause transient dermatitis (‘swimmers itch’), and occasionally pulmonary lesions and pneumonitis. The acute phase (sometimes called Katayama fever) is coincident with first egg release and is characterized by allergic responses (serum sickness due to overwhelming immune complex formation), resulting in pyrexia, fatigue, aches, lymphadenopathy, gastrointestinal discomfort and eosinophilia. The chronic phase occurs in response to the cumulative deposition of fluke eggs in tissues and the host reactions that develop against them. Not all the eggs laid by female worms successfully penetrate the gut or bladder walls, many are swept away in the circulation and become trapped in organs where they elicit strong granulomatous responses. Eggs become surrounded by inflammatory cells forming characteristic pseudotubercles, which may coalesce to form larger granulomatous reactions (polyps). The encapsulated eggs die and eventually calcify. The resultant effects on host organs and tissues are manifold, and include intestinal polyposis, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, glumerulonephritis, pulmonary arteritis, cardiovascular problems including heart failure, and periportal (Symmer’s clay pipe-stem) fibrosis. Portal hypertension often leads to hepatomegaly, splenomegaly, ascites, and sometimes gross enlargement of oesophageal and gastric veins (varices) which may burst. Cerebral granulomas have been associated with focal epileptic convulsions, while spinal cord granulomas may cause transverse myelitis. Infections by S. haematobium often cause haematuria (blood in urine) and progressive disruption of the bladder wall may lead to carcinoma."

John Swanson

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I find it strange that WT cyclists who have the best medical care can be affected by Bilharzia for three years. Gee, cyclists do a full battery of tests at least once a year and additionally are tested by the UCI every three months.

This wouldn't be tested for without strong suspicion.

They would test for eggs in the stool. The eggs being laid by the long dead schistomes that could have had any effect on his performance. The eggs that can't hatch inside the body. If the eggs had any effect, it would have been irritation and inflammation of the lining of his intestines and/or kidneys. Blood in the urine kind of thing. Having this last for three (!!!) years without going to a doctor? Hahahaha. No.

John Swanson

You might want to check that...

Holy cow, you're right! I thought it was just a few months, but apparently it's 2-5 years. However, the notion that they were hindering Froome is still preposterous. This is how the parasite manifests:

http://parasite.org.au/para-site/text/schistosoma-text.html

First you get swimmer's itch. Then you get a fever as you get a histological response to the first eggs. Then you might get a host of problems related to granulomas due to the eggs calcifying in the linings of your organs, intestines, etc. The first two symptoms are transient. If Froome had any of the chronic symptoms they would have been VERY troubling and he would have received medical care.

"Schistosomiasis (or bilharziasis) is unusual amongst helminth diseases for two reasons: much of the pathogenesis is due to the eggs (rather than larvae or adults); and most of the pathology is caused by host immune responses (delayed-type hypersensitivity and granulomatous reactions). The course of infection is often divided into three phases: migratory, acute and chronic. The migratory phase occurs when cercariae penetrate and migrate through the skin. This is often asymptomatic, but in sensitized patients, it may cause transient dermatitis (‘swimmers itch’), and occasionally pulmonary lesions and pneumonitis. The acute phase (sometimes called Katayama fever) is coincident with first egg release and is characterized by allergic responses (serum sickness due to overwhelming immune complex formation), resulting in pyrexia, fatigue, aches, lymphadenopathy, gastrointestinal discomfort and eosinophilia. The chronic phase occurs in response to the cumulative deposition of fluke eggs in tissues and the host reactions that develop against them. Not all the eggs laid by female worms successfully penetrate the gut or bladder walls, many are swept away in the circulation and become trapped in organs where they elicit strong granulomatous responses. Eggs become surrounded by inflammatory cells forming characteristic pseudotubercles, which may coalesce to form larger granulomatous reactions (polyps). The encapsulated eggs die and eventually calcify. The resultant effects on host organs and tissues are manifold, and include intestinal polyposis, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, glumerulonephritis, pulmonary arteritis, cardiovascular problems including heart failure, and periportal (Symmer’s clay pipe-stem) fibrosis. Portal hypertension often leads to hepatomegaly, splenomegaly, ascites, and sometimes gross enlargement of oesophageal and gastric veins (varices) which may burst. Cerebral granulomas have been associated with focal epileptic convulsions, while spinal cord granulomas may cause transverse myelitis. Infections by S. haematobium often cause haematuria (blood in urine) and progressive disruption of the bladder wall may lead to carcinoma."

John Swanson

You were likely thinking of the life cycle, but the parasite doesn't die, it continues to lay eggs.

The likelihood of it being a problem for Froome is small, but it isn't preposterous. Drug resistance to Praziquantel has been noted in Kenya (and Egypt) as far back as 1999 and multiple treatments are not uncommon. Diagnosis is also not as easy as people want to make out, Kato-Katz generally needs to be done 3 times and if the egg burden is low it's possible to miss them. There is also the issue of whether they carry out the test or not, it's much more routine in Africa but generally assumed to affect people from poor and rural areas. It's quite possible that with someone like Froome it could be missed.

I'm not defending Froome here, I can't remember all the twists and turns this story went through and I know that Froome and Brailsford have been caught out with differing stories at times making it highly questionable that schistosomiasis was really such a huge influence.

It is surprising, however, that many people want to read a few things they find online and make such forceful statements about schistosomiasis infection, detection and treatment.

 

[yaco]

I have a yearly health check up which includes blood tests, stool and urine samples, ECG and a body x-ray - Usually this battery of tests will detect any abnormality and then follow up tests/procedures are organised - Cyclists have a yearly health check up which is a step above my tests, while the UCI does quarterly tests for all WT/PCT cyclists - I am certain that this series of tests would eventually detect Bilharzia - In saying that treatment nd recovery varies for each individual, but nearly three years means you are dead-set unlucky.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I have a yearly health check up which includes blood tests, stool and urine samples, ECG and a body x-ray - Usually this battery of tests will detect any abnormality and then follow up tests/procedures are organised - Cyclists have a yearly health check up which is a step above my tests, while the UCI does quarterly tests for all WT/PCT cyclists - I am certain that this series of tests would eventually detect Bilharzia - In saying that treatment nd recovery varies for each
individual, but nearly three years means you are dead-set unlucky.

Firstly, reference?


Please explain, in detail, the tests they undergo that you believe would detect schistosomiasis and why.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I have a yearly health check up which includes blood tests, stool and urine samples, ECG and a body x-ray - Usually this battery of tests will detect any abnormality and then follow up tests/procedures are organised - Cyclists have a yearly health check up which is a step above my tests, while the UCI does quarterly tests for all WT/PCT cyclists - I am certain that this series of tests would eventually detect Bilharzia - In saying that treatment nd recovery varies for each
individual, but nearly three years means you are dead-set unlucky.

Firstly, reference?


Please explain, in detail, the tests they undergo that you believe would detect schistosomiasis and why.

When an elite athlete undertakes a full medical with the attendant battery of test the first results are merely 'markers' to indicate you have may have an abnormality - For example a cyclist has the following yearly test ecg, full pulmonary examination, stress and echo cardiogram, full blood count inc GOT,GRB, creatinnes, reticulocites, testesterone, urinary stick, serology, ferritin and calciumm, glucose,proteins, Gamma Ct,CPK, TSH, etc,etc - And many of these tests are repeated in a cyclists three month test which is mandated by the UCI. Then the medicos organise further blood tests, scans etc,etc etc to further investigate the abnormality - So eventually the medicos will diagnose Bilharzia - For example, Cavendish found out he had glandular fever after a quarterly UCI test - Or blood tests can be used as a marker to suggest you have cancer which is then followed up with other relevant medical tests to check the validity of the original blood test.

To be frank you are ' pissing in the wind' if you think medical professionals can't test and eventually diagnose Bilharzia - They've effectively diagnosed this illness for many years - The two issues are it can take time to diagnose the illness and individual patients may react differently to treatment - Finally it's strange to think that pro cyclists with the best medical care can have an illness be undiagnosed for a long period of time.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I have a yearly health check up which includes blood tests, stool and urine samples, ECG and a body x-ray - Usually this battery of tests will detect any abnormality and then follow up tests/procedures are organised - Cyclists have a yearly health check up which is a step above my tests, while the UCI does quarterly tests for all WT/PCT cyclists - I am certain that this series of tests would eventually detect Bilharzia - In saying that treatment nd recovery varies for each
individual, but nearly three years means you are dead-set unlucky.

Firstly, reference?


Please explain, in detail, the tests they undergo that you believe would detect schistosomiasis and why.

When an elite athlete undertakes a full medical with the attendant battery of test the first results are merely 'markers' to indicate you have may have an abnormality - For example a cyclist has the following yearly test ecg, full pulmonary examination, stress and echo cardiogram, full blood count inc GOT,GRB, creatinnes, reticulocites, testesterone, urinary stick, serology, ferritin and calciumm, glucose,proteins, Gamma Ct,CPK, TSH, etc,etc - And many of these tests are repeated in a cyclists three month test which is mandated by the UCI. Then the medicos organise further blood tests, scans etc,etc etc to further investigate the abnormality - So eventually the medicos will diagnose Bilharzia - For example, Cavendish found out he had glandular fever after a quarterly UCI test - Or blood tests can be used as a marker to suggest you have cancer which is then followed up with other relevant medical tests to check the validity of the original blood test.

To be frank you are ' pissing in the wind' if you think medical professionals can't test and eventually diagnose Bilharzia - They've effectively diagnosed this illness for many years - The two issues are it can take time to diagnose the illness and individual patients may react differently to treatment - Finally it's strange to think that pro cyclists with the best medical care can have an illness be undiagnosed for a long period of time.

Again, reference?

None of those tests will detect schistosomiasis, to carry out any test you have to know that you are looking for it which isn’t going to happen routinely. There are many, many other things that are more likely and will be looked into. If you really want to see how likely it is go and ask a load of European doctors what the symptoms of schistosomiasis are and how you would go about diagnosing it.

 

[Merckx index]

Froome's story has been debunked many times here. Recently, Hitch, who has looked into it especially thoroughly, sent me a long article documenting all the lies and/or misstatements Froome/Sky have made on the matter. Really, the fact that after all this time Froome would refer to schisto as a virus says it all.

It's not just that needing five separate treatments with PZQ is unheard of, even one of Froome's own doctors was quoted as saying it didn't make sense. Even if we bought into this, the timeline of treatments doesn't jibe with his performance. E.g., he needed another treatment not long after his 2011 Vuelta win. As Hitch has documented in detail, Froome can't even get his story straight about when and how it was initially diagnosed, and when and where and what his treatments consisted of.

 

[thehog]

Froome's story has been debunked many times here. Recently, Hitch, who has looked into it especially thoroughly, sent me a long article documenting all the lies and/or misstatements Froome/Sky have made on the matter. Really, the fact that after all this time Froome would refer to schisto as a virus says it all.

It's not just that needing five separate treatments with PZQ is unheard of, even one of Froome's own doctors was quoted as saying it didn't make sense. Even if we bought into this, the timeline of treatments doesn't jibe with his performance. E.g., he needed another treatment not long after his 2011 Vuelta win. As Hitch has documented in detail, Froome can't even get his story straight about when and how it was initially diagnosed, and when and where and what his treatments consisted of.

The “Badzhilla, the disease of champions” thread wrapped up a lot of good information on this topic, I’ll bump the thread as it’s very good:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21198&hilit=bilharzia

The Froome contradiction sheet read like this:

2009/2010 - Contraction

"I probably had it for year before I found it." (Sep '11)
"I found it 18 months ago and they had probably been in my system for a year before that." (May '12)

Dec 2010 - Diagnosis (and presumably Treatment)

"Bilharzia – it’s a water-borne disease, which I found that I had it in December last year." (Sep '11)

March/April 2012 - Treatment

"I took the treatment three weeks ago and I've got to wait six months to see if it's still active or not." (May '12)

“The bilharzia is not totally cleared up. I did repeat the treatment about three months ago in March. I am clear for now. I need to go check again in August-September." (Jul '12)

“I had a two week treatment in April last year, and have since been clear of the parasite. I have it checked every six months to make sure it hasn't returned.” (Dec '12)

January 2013 - Check-Up (and inferred Treatment)

”I do go for a check-up every six months. The last was in January and it was still in my system. I take Biltricide. It kills the parasite in the system.” (Jul '13)

 

[veganrob]

I thik the Dr's would notice the blood abnormalities and attempt to find the reason. Froome said they munch all the red blood cells so surely there must have been a low RBC, no? From there they should be able to track down the reason for infection. Not a virus like dawg says. He doesn't even know what his own ilness is. Counterfeit.