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Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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brownbobby said:
King Boonen said:
LaFlorecita said:
Not sure if it has already been posted. But thought Jörg Jacksche's tweet was interesting. "Never forget the bloodbag leftovers in your calculations". Interesting view IMO.
Certainly a possibility too.

Hmmm....but if he was reinfusing a bloodbag, surely said bloodbag would have been withdrawn at a time when he was far out from any competitive event or heavy training blocks. So, presuming the salbutamol is being used for the short term and immediate boosts it (highly debatably) brings, would seem unlikely that he'd have such high levels in his system at the time of withdrawing the bloodbag for storage?

If you're going to draw blood you do it when you are least likely to trip the passport or get caught doing it. This is usually when training at altitude. Training at altitude will likely induce asthma and require an inhaler if you suffer from it. It is not necessary that all the salbutamol comes from the bag, just enough to trip the detection. Read the tweet LaFlo quoted carefully. It is certainly a possibility.
 
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LaFlorecita said:
veji11 said:
It is pretty clear to me that ASO will not let him ride the Tour de France whatever the end result in terms of sanctions. It might be a safety measure actually, the guy would get clobbered byt fans along the road.
They allowed Berto so not sure why they wouldn't allow Froome

Because Contador was by that time an old school cheat who had paid his dues. They did forbid Contador from racing in 2008 even without a doping sentence.

The current Froome situation comes from a different angle, he is the current dominant champion, at the helm of an ever dominant team and next year he would be in the running to join the 5 victories rung of the ladder. Not acceptable for ASO.

Of course I may very well be wrong.
 
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brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.



Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
 
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Catwhoorg said:
But one thing is for sure:

Any "explanation" for the high sample is going to have to also show why he has a lifetime of tests below the threshold.

That would be the results of the Bilharzia medicine flushing through his system, which probably resulted in some kind of internal worm eating the asthma medicine.

Presumably the last treatment only just finally cleared through half way through this Vuelta, which then meant his body to start processing the Salbutamol in a hyper-efficent manner, resulting in such a high-reading.
 
King Boonen said:
brownbobby said:
King Boonen said:
LaFlorecita said:
Not sure if it has already been posted. But thought Jörg Jacksche's tweet was interesting. "Never forget the bloodbag leftovers in your calculations". Interesting view IMO.
Certainly a possibility too.

Hmmm....but if he was reinfusing a bloodbag, surely said bloodbag would have been withdrawn at a time when he was far out from any competitive event or heavy training blocks. So, presuming the salbutamol is being used for the short term and immediate boosts it (highly debatably) brings, would seem unlikely that he'd have such high levels in his system at the time of withdrawing the bloodbag for storage?

If you're going to draw blood you do it when you are least likely to trip the passport or get caught doing it. This is usually when training at altitude. Training at altitude will likely induce asthma and require an inhaler if you suffer from it. It is not necessary that all the salbutamol comes from the bag, just enough to trip the detection. Read the tweet LaFlo quoted carefully. It is certainly a possibility.

Ah ok, can't access Twitter at work....speaking of which, i should probably leave this forum for a while and actually do some work today :lol:
 
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Red Rick said:
LaFlorecita said:
veji11 said:
It is pretty clear to me that ASO will not let him ride the Tour de France whatever the end result in terms of sanctions. It might be a safety measure actually, the guy would get clobbered byt fans along the road.
They allowed Berto so not sure why they wouldn't allow Froome
He was already getting booed hard as hell this year. Imagine next year.
Maybe Brailsfraud and fran wont have to invent stories about people throwing piss at Froome etc to gather sympathy this time around
 
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Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.



Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

From what I've seen inhaled has little to no effect but oral dosing has ppossible ergogenic effects, although the literature disagrees.

It's fairly immaterial though, the rules are the rules and that's what people must play by.
 
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Angliru said:
silvergrenade said:
Strip him of the Vuelta. His levels were above the limit. I hope UCI does make an example.
What I don't understand is: why claim to do Giro Tour double while knowing he might be facing a potential ban?

...because they/he think that they are above the law, special, unique, exceptions to the rules. They likely thought "Oh, this will blow over. It's nothing"

I think more likely they were hedging their bets? If the case/investigation/evidence submittal gets dragged out then he's got more chance of being free to ride in May than July.

Obviously if he's banned before then it doesn't matter anyway, and if the case is still ongoing in July then he has a go at the double, and at least gets kudos for trying, but I guess the scenario they wanted to avoid was he prepares for the tour and then gets banned in June and misses it, having sat out the Giro, and passed up on £2million or whatever the fee is.

And I guess - had this all remained confidential - if he was cleared before May then at some point shortly thereafter he might have developed some kind of muscle strain that meant he took a pass at the Giro in any case, and then re-targeted the tour. (In fact I'd bet now it's public, and if he is cleared before May, that he'll duck the Giro citing the stress of this case meant he's not mentally right.)
 
Re:

old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
 
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GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.



Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
 
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King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.

feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...
 
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Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...
 
Re: Re:

veji11 said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...

Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.
 
Re: Re:

No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.



Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.

Except Clenbuterol is banned. Full stop. No therapeutic uses and no permissible levels in the body.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
veji11 said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...

Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.

Noone said you can't do sport, you can do all the sport you want, but if you want to do competitive sport it's another matter, and certainly you shouldn't go pro.
 
Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:

Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).

That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.

feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...
Allowing people to wear glasses while driving does not potentially provide them with an advantage in the job market that is unavailable to those without glasses. It allows them to take part in what may be a very necessary part of normal life and reduces the general risk to other road users.

Being allowed to take drugs that may give you a performance boost over other athletes in a sport that people choose to take part in is very, very different. This would be a debate over the TUE system, which isn't really relevant here, but it's still a very poor analogy.
 
Re: Re:

No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.



Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion

Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.

Not in this case it isn't. Wikipedia isn't always your friend.
 

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