Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[fmk_RoI]

This is the Froome thread not the Armstrong. You should take your grievances up on that thread. Not relevant here, sorry. Although since you brought it up, Outside were one of the first to print an exposé on Livestrong so what you are saying is more made up tripe (not unexpected mind you). For reference the article and subsequent issues with Bill Gifford and Outside: https://www.outsideonline.com/1912911/our-fight-lance-and-livestrong - “Our fight with Lance and Livestrong”.

Please, take your frustrations out using the Report Button, it's why God invented it...

Not required, you could just stay on topic and make life easier for everyone including the mods. That’s the shot!

(noted you backed down from your Outside/Armstrong assertion )

Whatever you say Hoggy, it must be true.

Why do you call yourself Hoggy?

Suggest you spend less time trying to be quicker with a quip than Oscar Wilde and more time paying attention - then you might understand why the disrepute clause is irrelevant to the Froome case

 

[fmk_RoI]

Fair point of argument by FMK, Hog, even on this thread. You use OutsideOnline (Froome) article to support a point. FMK discredits the point by discrediting the credibility of the publication ... based on its seemingly flip flop relationship with Armstrong. Eg. Livestrong vs Stages. I'm with him on that. Not only that ... (here we come Armstrong thread) the O.O. Livestrong article was a sink of soapsuds. Under close reading, there's not much there ... except for those Clinicians who say ... "I see things at night." :lol:

Among my fave Outside stories about LA is this piece of BS from former editor Hal Espen, helpfully titled How I Enabled the Cult of Lance Armstrong:

as a magazine journalist once deeply invested in covering the Armstrong era in cycling, I also feel a shock of self-recrimination as I struggle to reconcile my part in lionizing a man who, in hindsight, was almost certainly a cheat and a liar of breathtaking audacity and shamelessness. How could I have characterized the rumors and accusations that Lance relied on banned performance-enhancing drugs and techniques as part of a "myth"?

So, as I said: where Outside is concerned, keep the salt cellar handy.

Specifically WRT the current 'story', this Tweet from CN's Laura Weislo is not without relevance:

Laura J. Weislo
‏@Laura_Weislo

Seriously, non-endemic media, if you can't get your facts straight about salbutamol please stop opining that cycling is somehow screwed.

Weislo's opinion should matter here: Outside half-inched much of its 'research' from something she wrote.

 

[fmk_RoI]

You forgot to mention the British Cycling juniors were purchasing tramandol much the same Josh Edmondson outlined his time at Sky. Additionally, in recent events have shown Sky and British Cycling are inextricably linked when it comes to doctors and medications. Poor attempt at deflection.

They were nothing to do with British Cycling though. The person who's name was displayed - James McKay - is just a student at York University who does some racing. He has a blog. He goes to Belgium a lot but doesn't seem to have been to Italy or have anything to do with BC.

did the pics got deleted from Insta?

Did the pics ever exist on Insta? All we have is a nice bit of PhotoShoppery someone posted, with not even a link to the Insta account it allegedly came from...

 

[ooo]

Re:

https://www.idrottsforskning.se/astmamedicin-gor-idrottare-starkare-och-mer-explosiva/
WADA's Danish Vibeke Backer states that Sundby/Froome levels of Salbutamol are PE. Interestingly, the high allowed levels of asthma medicine is because of financial consideration - lower limits would cost a lot due to the legal costs of all the "active asthmatics" that would be caught. No normal asthmatic though would take such large doses and be walking around let alone riding up a mountain

ASO/UCI can partially discriminate athlets with special medical needs:

on TdF only first week (or first stages outside of France) should be treated with normal allowance of medicine
and the rest of TdF stages should have 50% of normal allowance of medicine (blaming Froome and Lance)
athlete and their doctors after first stages can decide if they can continue with 50% lowered medicine allowance

It makes first stages interesting - drug assisted athlets with top allowed medicine levels will be fighting for stage wins
this also brings more money from international partners who hosts first TdF stages and from TV partners,
and for the rest of the stages inside the France there will be much less medicine influence.

 

[thehog]

You forgot to mention the British Cycling juniors were purchasing tramandol much the same Josh Edmondson outlined his time at Sky. Additionally, in recent events have shown Sky and British Cycling are inextricably linked when it comes to doctors and medications. Poor attempt at deflection.

They were nothing to do with British Cycling though. The person who's name was displayed - James McKay - is just a student at York University who does some racing. He has a blog. He goes to Belgium a lot but doesn't seem to have been to Italy or have anything to do with BC.

did the pics got deleted from Insta?

Did the pics ever exist on Insta? All we have is a nice bit of PhotoShoppery someone posted, with not even a link to the Insta account it allegedly came from...

It was actually Facebook, not Instagram. Do keep up when pretending to know everything

 

[thehog]

Re:

he (fmk_RoI) generally hogs the conversation.
l'ultima parola e' mia

Non avere peli sulla lingua!

 

[pastronef]

You forgot to mention the British Cycling juniors were purchasing tramandol much the same Josh Edmondson outlined his time at Sky. Additionally, in recent events have shown Sky and British Cycling are inextricably linked when it comes to doctors and medications. Poor attempt at deflection.

They were nothing to do with British Cycling though. The person who's name was displayed - James McKay - is just a student at York University who does some racing. He has a blog. He goes to Belgium a lot but doesn't seem to have been to Italy or have anything to do with BC.

did the pics got deleted from Insta?

Did the pics ever exist on Insta? All we have is a nice bit of PhotoShoppery someone posted, with not even a link to the Insta account it allegedly came from...

It was actually Facebook, not Instagram. Do keep up when pretending to know everything

in the pics you posted it says "via Instagram" so they were posted both on FB and Insta I guess

 

[fmk_RoI]

You forgot to mention the British Cycling juniors were purchasing tramandol much the same Josh Edmondson outlined his time at Sky. Additionally, in recent events have shown Sky and British Cycling are inextricably linked when it comes to doctors and medications. Poor attempt at deflection.

They were nothing to do with British Cycling though. The person who's name was displayed - James McKay - is just a student at York University who does some racing. He has a blog. He goes to Belgium a lot but doesn't seem to have been to Italy or have anything to do with BC.

did the pics got deleted from Insta?

Did the pics ever exist on Insta? All we have is a nice bit of PhotoShoppery someone posted, with not even a link to the Insta account it allegedly came from...

It was actually Facebook, not Instagram. Do keep up when pretending to know everything

The person I was replying to said it was Insta. Your're now saying it was Facebook. The person who posted it originally said it was Twitter. Make your mind up, please. Or, better still, just post a link to the account. TIA.

A series of photos appeared albeit briefly on Twitter of BC U23 cyclists at a base in Italy. Photos include picking up deliveries of tramadol (pictured),Ventolin, getting wasted mixing wine with the controlled substance, painting a cats paws with liquid paper and smashing up the villa. Impressive work. Start them young the zero tolerance Sky way

 

[thehog]

I didn’t post the rest of the photos, one was enough to get the gist of what was going on. I guess make of them what you will. Assuming all of them were doctored and photoshopped because no one has anything better to do than create a fake dossier of U23 riders from Britain buying and taking drugs, getting drunk and painting the paws of a cat

 

[thehog]

Outside magazine pulling plenty of punches asking for Froome to be banned:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2277476/suspending-belief?utm_content=buffer7c515&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=tweet

Cycling is rife with these sorts of unlikely stories. In 2005, for instance, when Tyler Hamilton was called out for doping, he argued that the small amount of a second type of blood mixed in with his own came from a “vanishing twin,” which, before dying in utero, had left him with traces of its blood. (Of course it wasn’t from a blood transfusion, silly.)

No matter how the decision on Froome turns out, it’s clear that UCI and its anti-doping processes are broken. The fact that athletes can return adverse results and continue racing is like giving a drunk driver who fails a breathalyzer test the chance to come up with a good excuse and drive away. If athletes with adverse test results are allowed to keep racing, there’s no motivation for their teams to conclude the affairs quickly and every reason to stretch them—and their possible winning streaks—out.

Outside Magazine, who before and after the fall knelt at the altar of LA so much you had to think they were fellating him? Where's that salt cellar...

This is the Froome thread not the Armstrong. You should take your grievances up on that thread. Not relevant here, sorry. Although since you brought it up, Outside were one of the first to print an exposé on Livestrong so what you are saying is more made up tripe (not unexpected mind you). For reference the article and subsequent issues with Bill Gifford and Outside: https://www.outsideonline.com/1912911/our-fight-lance-and-livestrong - “Our fight with Lance and Livestrong”.

Moving on, I thought it was a good article, good for a non-cycling publication to reach some of the masses who may not understand the case fully.

Fair point of argument by FMK, Hog, even on this thread. You use OutsideOnline (Froome) article to support a point. FMK discredits the point by discrediting the credibility of the publication ... based on its seemingly flip flop relationship with Armstrong. Eg. Livestrong vs Stages. I'm with him on that. Not only that ... (here we come Armstrong thread) the O.O. Livestrong article was a sink of soapsuds. Under close reading, there's not much there ... except for those Clinicians who say ... "I see things at night." :lol:

Just about every publication in that era was Armstrong friendly. It was the times. It’s a poor point to make as we know just about everyone in print fawned over Lance during that period. It doesn’t denigrate future works some 10 years later.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Assuming all of them were doctored and photoshopped because no one has anything better to do than create a fake dossier of U23 riders from Britain buying and taking drugs, getting drunk and painting the paws of a cat

True. They'd be better spending their time making tinfoil hats and posting conspiracy theories in internet forums dedicated to drugs in cycling...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Just about every publication in that era was Armstrong friendly. It was the times. It’s a poor point to make as we know just about everyone in print fawned over Lance during that period. It doesn’t denigrate further works some 10 years later.

They were clickbaiters then, they're clickbaiters now. From the link I posted previously:

To paraphrase the subtitle of John Kenneth Galbraith's classic book on the gullibility that precedes market collapse, A Short History of Financial Euphoria, "genius is before the fall." For a long time, Lance Armstrong was a blue-chip investment, and Outside had a strong business interest in extolling him when he was winning and getting away with it. In its own ambivalent way, the magazine became a minor entertainment division of Lance Inc., alongside major conglomerate players like Nike, Trek, Oakley, and the Hollywood heavy-hitters who vied to schmooze with him and produce his biopic, not to mention the perennially hapless United States Postal Service. His cancer story was irresistibly inspiring. Brilliant photographers like Anton Corbijn and Robert Maxwell were eager to shoot him for the magazine. We won awards for issues that packaged Lance as a heroic icon.

They had a strong business interest in being pro-LA. Now they think they can have a strong business interest in being anti-cycling - and don't you dare try to claim they're being anti-doping, because they're only looking at it from the POV of cycling, not sport in general.

 

[thehog]

Just about every publication in that era was Armstrong friendly. It was the times. It’s a poor point to make as we know just about everyone in print fawned over Lance during that period. It doesn’t denigrate further works some 10 years later.

They were clickbaiters then, they're clickbaiters now. From the link I posted previously:

To paraphrase the subtitle of John Kenneth Galbraith's classic book on the gullibility that precedes market collapse, A Short History of Financial Euphoria, "genius is before the fall." For a long time, Lance Armstrong was a blue-chip investment, and Outside had a strong business interest in extolling him when he was winning and getting away with it. In its own ambivalent way, the magazine became a minor entertainment division of Lance Inc., alongside major conglomerate players like Nike, Trek, Oakley, and the Hollywood heavy-hitters who vied to schmooze with him and produce his biopic, not to mention the perennially hapless United States Postal Service. His cancer story was irresistibly inspiring. Brilliant photographers like Anton Corbijn and Robert Maxwell were eager to shoot him for the magazine. We won awards for issues that packaged Lance as a heroic icon.

They had a strong business interest in being pro-LA. Now they think they can have a strong business interest in being anti-cycling - and don't you dare try to claim they're being anti-doping, because they're only looking at it from the POV of cycling, not sport in general.

You’ve lost me and the rest of us. I’ve not claimed they were “anti-doping”, again that’s something you made up. You seem to keep doing that, putting words in other people’s mouths to further your point.

In 2003 Outside produced a very good article on EPO where their own journalist took the drug: https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test - Followed on from Giffords article on Livestrong which at the time for a US publication was unheard of.

Sure many publications were pro-Lance at the time, including Podium Cafe and many others

Here is one from yourself in 2008:

That, I think, deals with the issues raised by others. To my mind, no matter what I might personally think of Lance Armstrong, I think the criticism of his Foundation is a bit wide of the mark. Whether it's the right charity for you to donate to is for you to decide. But there's little about it that makes it screamingly wrong. Or justifies the sort of comments made in respect of it.

I rest my case.

 

[Netserk]

http://forskning.ku.dk/find-en-fors...is(010debb0-4d61-4658-9b4d-707eba68efaf).html

In conclusion, exercise and dehydration affect urine concentrations of salbutamol and increase the risk of Adverse Analytical Findings in samples collected after inhalation of that maximal permitted (1600 µg) for salbutamol. This should be taken into account when evaluating doping cases of salbutamol.

Bingo! Case dismissed! (throw in some dodgy kidneys on top and we have a winner)

Is the 1600 µg taken at once?

 

[Angliru]

Outside magazine pulling plenty of punches asking for Froome to be banned:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2277476/suspending-belief?utm_content=buffer7c515&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=tweet

Cycling is rife with these sorts of unlikely stories. In 2005, for instance, when Tyler Hamilton was called out for doping, he argued that the small amount of a second type of blood mixed in with his own came from a “vanishing twin,” which, before dying in utero, had left him with traces of its blood. (Of course it wasn’t from a blood transfusion, silly.)

No matter how the decision on Froome turns out, it’s clear that UCI and its anti-doping processes are broken. The fact that athletes can return adverse results and continue racing is like giving a drunk driver who fails a breathalyzer test the chance to come up with a good excuse and drive away. If athletes with adverse test results are allowed to keep racing, there’s no motivation for their teams to conclude the affairs quickly and every reason to stretch them—and their possible winning streaks—out.

Outside Magazine, who before and after the fall knelt at the altar of LA so much you had to think they were fellating him? Where's that salt cellar...

This is the Froome thread not the Armstrong. You should take your grievances up on that thread. Not relevant here, sorry. Although since you brought it up, Outside were one of the first to print an exposé on Livestrong so what you are saying is more made up tripe (not unexpected mind you). For reference the article and subsequent issues with Bill Gifford and Outside: https://www.outsideonline.com/1912911/our-fight-lance-and-livestrong - “Our fight with Lance and Livestrong”.

Moving on, I thought it was a good article, good for a non-cycling publication to reach some of the masses who may not understand the case fully.

like when you posted instagram pics of U23 racers TOTALLY unrelated from Sky, in the Sky thread?

Actually it has been shown that the lines dividing the operations of British Cycling and Sky are quite blurred so there is always a link in some way.

 

[Robert5091]

http://forskning.ku.dk/find-en-fors...is(010debb0-4d61-4658-9b4d-707eba68efaf).html

In conclusion, exercise and dehydration affect urine concentrations of salbutamol and increase the risk of Adverse Analytical Findings in samples collected after inhalation of that maximal permitted (1600 µg) for salbutamol. This should be taken into account when evaluating doping cases of salbutamol.

Bingo! Case dismissed! (throw in some dodgy kidneys on top and we have a winner)

Is the 1600 µg taken at once?

Full report (from 2015) says
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1828/full

The pharmacokinetic study was a crossover study investigating urine and serum concentrations of salbutamol after administration of 1600 µg inhaled salbutamol as a single dose (Ventoline Diskus, salbutamol sulphate dry powder, GlaxoSmtihKline)
...subjects met at the clinic in the morning after an overnight fast and consumed a standardized meal and drink (300 mL water). Fifteen min after the meal, subjects inhaled 8 × 200 µg salbutamol during supervision and drank 300 mL water.

 

[Netserk]

^^Thanks. In that case, the conclusions don't hold 1:1, as you are only allowed 800 µg per 12 hour.

 

[Merckx index]

The Haase article has been discussed extensively in salbutamol thread. While quite a few samples exceeded 1000 ng/ml, only 5/117 USG-uncorrected samples (or 4/117 corrected) exceeded 2000 ng/ml, so while the study has apparently not been done, one presumes that if subjects were given 800 ug instead of 1600, very few samples would exceed 1000 ng/ml. Also none of the 234 corrected or non-corrected samples exceeded 4000 ng/ml, suggesting that it would be very rare for a subject taking 800 ug to reach 2000 ng/ml.

Some have suggested that if the exercise were still higher in intensity, to approximate that in actual racing, the levels might be still higher, but the relationship is not necessarily that simple. In the Discussion, they point out that renal function is enhanced by low intensity exercise, yet impaired by higher intensity exercise. And as emphasized before here, any explanation of Froome's level has to account for why it only occurred one time.

Not sure what Weislo's beef with Outside is.

 

[Netserk]

Ah, I thought this was a different study. Thanks, Merckx index.

 

[Rollthedice]

Former boss of Barloworld, Claudio Corti does not remember Froome having asthma. He says better ask doctor Mantovani.

On Froome during Barlo days "...he lacked power. He always had a great rhythm, but now he has a lot more strength. He is really different physically."

An interesting interview in Italian here: http://m.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=108547

So, Froome goes to Sky, gets asthma, increases power, changes physically and wins 5 GTs. And he lost the fat.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Former boss of Barloworld, Claudio Corti does not remember Froome having asthma. He says better ask doctor Mantovani.

On Froome during Barlo days "...he lacked power. He always had a great rhythm, but now he has a lot more strength. He is really different physically."

An interesting interview in Italian here: http://m.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=108547

So, Froome goes to Sky, gets asthma, increases power, changes physically and wins 5 GTs. And he lost the fat.

I liked this bit from Froome's former boss:

Il problema è che nella sua squadra non vogliono ammettere neanche uno sbaglio. Mi meraviglio di Brailsford, che ha sempre sventagliato la bandiera dell’etica: se c’è una regola, bisogna rispettarla.

The problem is that in Froome's team they never want to admit even single mistake. I am amazed at Brailsford, who has always carried the ethics-flag: if there is a rule, you've got to respect it.

I agree this "no wrong doing" line is just plain wrong.

 

[rhubroma]

Gian Carlo Ferretti is even more caustic towards Sky.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2018/01/27/108533/giancarlo-ferretti-la-sky-E-la-rovina-del-ciclismo-alessandra-giardini-nibali-petacchi-bugno-sagan-tuttobiciweb

 

[watertight]

Is there anyone anywhere who is buying the kidney failure angle?? If this is legit, how do I get some of this "kidney failure"?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Former boss of Barloworld, Claudio Corti does not remember Froome having asthma. He says better ask doctor Mantovani.

On Froome during Barlo days "...he lacked power. He always had a great rhythm, but now he has a lot more strength. He is really different physically."

An interesting interview in Italian here: http://m.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=108547

So, Froome goes to Sky, gets asthma, increases power, changes physically and wins 5 GTs. And he lost the fat.

Lol. Corti throwing Froome under the bus. Not much love.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Gian Carlo Ferretti is even more caustic towards Sky.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2018/01/27/108533/giancarlo-ferretti-la-sky-E-la-rovina-del-ciclismo-alessandra-giardini-nibali-petacchi-bugno-sagan-tuttobiciweb

rhubroma, if you can pull the main excerpt from the article and translate it I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.