GB Track Team

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May 26, 2010
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I don't think posters should enter into discussions if they are upset that their nation, hero, favourite person is under suspicion, allegations made against or being discussed in a manner that implies illegal activity or doping.

If you cannot leave your emotions at the door you end up looking stupid getting into discussions on forums.

I find it strange and amusing that people believe their nation would not dope and there maybe 1 and only 1, if even, bad apple in the barrel!

We are discussing humans here and their propensity to cheat, lie and do all manner of terrible things has been proven reasonable doubt.

Get over yourselves. Go watch your Olympics cheer on your nations, athlete etc but dont come in here with indignation that it/they are being discussed as dopers.

Open your eyes.
 
Benotti69 said:
...

I find it strange and amusing that people believe their nation would not dope and there maybe 1 and only 1, if even, bad apple in the barrel!

...

We had Ben Johnson, so we are way past that. Fortunately, no other Canadian would ever dope or cheat.

;)

Well, ok, definitely not any cyclist. Right Genevieve? :mad:

Dave.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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So tell me Bennotti, why so many threads on GB/Sky? How many other track teams are there? The Chinese women broke two WR in two runs but I don't see threads about them. Bauge has served a retro-active one year ban for missing three tests, where is his thread, or one for France? World records toppled at the World Cup meet at the London velodrome earlier this year, it is commonly regarded as the fastest one on the planet. In fact World Records in track generally tumble at high profile meets.

The sheer number of threads and accusations in them being thrown at the Brits, and the mocking and sarcastic responses to anyone who tries to counter them just sticks of bias. I understand your suspicions, just try to apply them more evenly rather than focusing on one nation and its athletes. Clearly residents of that nation and fans of those athletes are going to get upset.

You ask for objective responses yet nothing in the clinic's eagerness to accuse Brits of doping is actually objective. Prejudice would be a better description. Only came in here because I saw the GB Track thread btw. This place is out of control IMO, and it shames Cyclingnews to tolerate the behaviour in here
 
May 26, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
So tell me Bennotti, why so many threads on GB/Sky? How many other track teams are there?

CN is predominantly english speaking and they are currently the most successful, so get the most attention. There is the small fact of the 2 doctors they working with.


JimmyFingers said:
The Chinese women broke two WR in two runs but I don't see threads about them.

I suppose it is taken for granted that the Chinese will dope. It is for me. Why discuss something that is well known and obvious.

JimmyFingers said:
Bauge has served a retro-active one year ban for missing three tests, where is his thread, or one for France? World records toppled at the World Cup meet at the London velodrome earlier this year, it is commonly regarded as the fastest one on the planet. In fact World Records in track generally tumble at high profile meets.

Have you done a search for Bauge? Want to discuss him, then open a thread?

JimmyFingers said:
The sheer number of threads and accusations in them being thrown at the Brits, and the mocking and sarcastic responses to anyone who tries to counter them just sticks of bias. I understand your suspicions, just try to apply them more evenly rather than focusing on one nation and its athletes. Clearly residents of that nation and fans of those athletes are going to get upset.

You have not been reading them objectively as lots of points made have been about Wiggins blatant turn around in his talk of doping. There is also the fact that they are working with Doctors who have doping reputations.

As a fan of TeamSky/GB cycling i would be asking this? I would hate to find out in 1 or 5 or 10 years that Sky were doing what everyone else did. I would rather have my eyes opened now, if i was a fan, i'm not. The British are famous for their humour so why do you not appreciate it now, oh because it is directed at something you have lots of emotional investment in! hence leave them at the door when enetering.

JimmyFingers said:
You ask for objective responses yet nothing in the clinic's eagerness to accuse Brits of doping is actually objective. Prejudice would be a better description. Only came in here because I saw the GB Track thread btw. This place is out of control IMO, and it shames Cyclingnews to tolerate the behaviour in here

It is an internet forum. Dont get too serious, that is for real life.

'Place is out of control'? Only because it is making what you consider disparaging, sarcastic and mocking comments about your beloved nation and favourite cycling team.

So you think the Brits have found a way to win without cheating and beating all the inherent cheating nations. If 'Queen' Vicki Pendeleton beat the Chinese ( who i assume everyone thinks dopes as i have not read any defending them) how did she do it? Black pudding and Kippers with a bit of stiff upper lip thrown in for good measure.

Do me a favour Guv!

Take of the blinkers.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
It is an internet forum. Dont get too serious, that is for real life.

This concerns me: we are discussing a very serious issue, shouldn't be treated as joke. Perhaps this explains why the rot runs deep, you lot getting your giggles as you discuss it all for fun.

And your point about the Brits beating known-doping nations is illuminating. Essentially whoever wins is doping. In a way all these threads are a back-handed compliment.

Anyway I have learnt a lot. All winners are dopers, abandon all hope all ye who enter
 
Jul 23, 2009
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hotrats said:
Having seen him say these comments live on the TV and the manner in which he said them and his team mates' reactions I thought at the time he was being ironic, making a joke. Even German/British teenagers have a sense of humour... or try to. Perhaps they're inappropriate, yes. But looking at the incident did he not veer off almost from the first pedal turn? There doesn't seem to be enough time between actually getting out of the blocks and getting into difficult to actually make a decision that the start was too slow. I may be wrong, but that's my view. Really, what is there to gain in a first round match by doing something like that? For the French to say they are now bitter about it when they were beaten fair in the final is just silly.
I don't think for a second that even a teenager would make a joke about deliberately trying to lose. It seemed obvious to me that he thought that this was an acceptable tactic, and why not if his team had drawn that up as an option? I have no problem with what he did, shady though it may be. I have a much bigger problem with his handlers suggesting that his intent was lost in translation. As for what there is to gain by doing that in the first round.... well, qualification for the medal rounds I suppose. Incentive enough, I would say.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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JimmyFingers said:
This concerns me: we are discussing a very serious issue, shouldn't be treated as joke. Perhaps this explains why the rot runs deep, you lot getting your giggles as you discuss it all for fun.

And your point about the Brits beating known-doping nations is illuminating. Essentially whoever wins is doping. In a way all these threads are a back-handed compliment.

Anyway I have learnt a lot. All winners are dopers, abandon all hope all ye who enter
Relax, Jimmy. You've been here for two weeks and your fingers have yet to surf to any thread that did not involve Sky or Great Britain. Check out a few threads where your emotions don't run so high and you might find some conversations that could ease your state of despair. GB is in the limelight right now and there are some pretty compelling reasons to be concerned about some of their performances, on the road if not on the track, so what did you expect to find in The Clinic? Besides, these guys aren't getting anywhere near the stick that the Americans and Spanish have been getting since the inception of the forum.
 
May 26, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
This concerns me: we are discussing a very serious issue, shouldn't be treated as joke. Perhaps this explains why the rot runs deep, you lot getting your giggles as you discuss it all for fun.

And your point about the Brits beating known-doping nations is illuminating. Essentially whoever wins is doping. In a way all these threads are a back-handed compliment.

Anyway I have learnt a lot. All winners are dopers, abandon all hope all ye who enter

Seems you have not read much in here nor learnt anything.

The British were famous for their humour during the war. Dad's Army to name one famous sitcom that celebrated it.

This is sport dear calm down.

If there is any rot, it is the amount of cheating and doping in sport.

I have never suggested that every winner is doping.

Again i suggest you dont bother posting in here without leaving your emotions out of it. You look silly.

I asked you a question re Victoria Pendleton. You as is your wont ignored it.

There is no back handedness. If was a straight question.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I don't think posters should enter into discussions if they are upset that their nation, hero, favourite person is under suspicion, allegations made against or being discussed in a manner that implies illegal activity or doping.
Very good point.

On the photo of Forsteman then, I only wanted to show he is less dedicated in comparison to British Cycling/Sky. No accusations, also Pat agrees with the marginal gains theory:
"Marginal gains" bear fruit for Great Britain in Olympics
By: Laura WeisloPublished: August 3, 14:44, Updated: August 3, 15:07Race:2012 Olympic Games

Sir Chirs Hoy secures his fifth gold Olympic medal


UCI president McQuaid confident of clean team

Great Britain has come a long way since the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games: back then the country as a whole only earned one gold medal in rowing, and now in London they already have two golds in cycling alone with more likely to come, and new world records in team sprint and team pursuit.

Huge gains in cycling will always be met with suspicion of doping because of the sport's sordid history, but UCI president Pat McQuaid is confident that the programme is clean and that it is its philosophy of pursuing marginal gains which has led to its success - up to and including the Tour de France win and Olympic gold by Bradley Wiggins, and now more gold on the track.

"There is a lot of cynicism of success of Team Sky. I think a lot of that is misguided," McQuaid said before the Games commenced.

"They have constant communication between their support personnel and the athletes: they have doctors, physiologists, psychologists, sports psychologists, psychiatrists, sports psychiatrists, kinesiologists, chiropractors, nutritionists, dieticians, even an acupuncturist. They are all there to support the athletes, to ensure they can perform at the highest level.

"That works against doping. because it is when an athm and goes into alete loses for little ravine and he's trying to climb out that he considers a doping programme. The fact they have people who can judge when a rider is going down and talk to him and bring him back out - professional people - form that point of view it's a new approach, a very modern approach. I think the teams and competitors in coming years will adopt a similar approach."

It has been a 16 year journey for the British program, which has blurred the line between its development programme and professional teams with the evolution of Team Sky. It has taken huge investments of money and effort, beginning with the track cycling programme and then adding the road.

In 1996, Chris Boardman and Max Sciandri took bronze in the road events, and the entire country netted only 15 medals. The British Olympic committee looked at track cycling as a sport in which the medal count could be improved. After increasing the focus on track cycling development over two years, the team improved in 2000 to win gold in the kilo (Jason Queally), silver in team sprint (Chris Hoy, Queally and Craig MacLean) and bronze in the women's pursuit (Yvonne Gregor) and men's team pursuit (Paul Manning, Chris Newton, Bryan Steel, Bradley Wiggins).

In 2004 the progression continued with cycling doubling its gold medal count: Wiggins won the pursuit, Hoy the kilo, and it was silver for the men's pursuit team, bronze for its Madison pair. Then in Beijing, everything came together in a perfect storm of medals - seven golds on the track in addition to Nicole Cooke's road race win, four silver and two bronze, and Great Britain had nearly as many medals in cycling alone than their entire country's medal count in the whole Atlanta Games.

"The secret of that success wasn't so much 'throw money at it and you'll win'," McQuaid said. "It's what you do with it. I think British Cycling through Peter Keen, followed by David Brailsford spent the money very wisely: in terms of attention to detail, developing athletes and developing support groups for the athletes, personnel and equipment.

"It's not something that happened overnight," he continued. "They gave Brailsford the objective of creating a Tour de France team, which he did. He set out attempting to win the Tour in five years. He took the same approach [with the road program as the track] ... all the little things to make sure the riders only have to ride their bike and nothing else. They have a huge support mechanism for all the riders, which isn't there with other teams. It hasn't happened by accident."

The track programme is still continuing its focus on these "marginal gains", and after day one, the unlikely repeat of its domination in Beijing has so far only been hampered by the relegation of the women's team sprinters in the first round.

Before the world record for Chris Hoy, Jason Kenny and Philip Hindes in the team sprint final, and another record for the men's team pursuit in the qualifying round, one of the tiny differences employed by the British team was revealed: the riders wear warming pants in order to keep their muscles at an optimal state between the warm up and start of competition.

"We noticed in previous championships that after warm up, your muscles cool, and when you then have to go and apply a lot of force in a short time like you do at the start of a team sprint, there is a slight lag off the line," explained Hoy.

"The hot pants aren't necessarily the significant difference, but they are a small piece of the formula, we have so many things to try to optimize," said Hoy. "The clothing, equipment, training analysis. Every possible detail we're trying to optimize, and the warming pants are part of that.

"It's hard to say if it made a difference, but we broke the world record twice, so we must have done something right."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marginal-gains-bear-fruit-for-great-britain-in-olympics
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
In 1996, Chris Boardman and Max Sciandri took bronze in the road events, and the entire country netted only 15 medals. The British Olympic committee looked at track cycling as a sport in which the medal count could be improved. After increasing the focus on track cycling development over two years, the team improved in 2000 to win gold in the kilo (Jason Queally), silver in team sprint (Chris Hoy, Queally and Craig MacLean) and bronze in the women's pursuit (Yvonne Gregor) and men's team pursuit (Paul Manning, Chris Newton, Bryan Steel, Bradley Wiggins).

In 2004 the progression continued with cycling doubling its gold medal count: Wiggins won the pursuit, Hoy the kilo, and it was silver for the men's pursuit team, bronze for its Madison pair. Then in Beijing, everything came together in a perfect storm of medals - seven golds on the track in addition to Nicole Cooke's road race win, four silver and two bronze, and Great Britain had nearly as many medals in cycling alone than their entire country's medal count in the whole Atlanta Games.

Can we see a clear progression of results? this goes for all GB's athletes: the current crop is the result of years of work and ****-load of lottery money
 
Jul 17, 2012
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pedaling squares said:
Relax, Jimmy. You've been here for two weeks and your fingers have yet to surf to any thread that did not involve Sky or Great Britain. Check out a few threads where your emotions don't run so high and you might find some conversations that could ease your state of despair. GB is in the limelight right now and there are some pretty compelling reasons to be concerned about some of their performances, on the road if not on the track, so what did you expect to find in The Clinic? Besides, these guys aren't getting anywhere near the stick that the Americans and Spanish have been getting since the inception of the forum.

Where are those? I must have missed them...

No despair here, I'm thoroughly enjoying my country's sucesses on two-wheels. The accusations stung at first but given the merry-go-round of arguments here and the sheer lack of objectivity undermines much of what people are trying to say, even the compelling ones.

As I said, it seems it is a back-handed compliment
 
Apr 20, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
Can we see a clear progression of results? this goes for all GB's athletes: the current crop is the result of years of work and ****-load of lottery money
So in a fact we should go over to this topic:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18023

In cycling dominance of one team/nation has always been suspect. Just like the progress by for example the Chinese women, but, that's not the topic here.
 
May 26, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
Where are those? I must have missed them...

No despair here, I'm thoroughly enjoying my country's sucesses on two-wheels. The accusations stung at first but given the merry-go-round of arguments here and the sheer lack of objectivity undermines much of what people are trying to say, even the compelling ones.

As I said, it seems it is a back-handed compliment

Be careful it may turn into a slap in the face if they are proved to be doping.
 
Certainly no doping going on here.

great-britain-women-beach-volleyball-team.jpg
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I asked you a question re Victoria Pendleton. You as is your wont ignored it.

You are asking how she beat the Chinese? When? Yesterday? She never actually raced them, but they turned in at least two times, including the DQed ones, slower than the Chinese pair.

Is that proof she isn't doping? Because she wasn't faster than than the Chinese? Are they now the watermark for doping, lose you are clean, win you are juicing?
 
May 26, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
You are asking how she beat the Chinese? When? Yesterday? She never actually raced them, but they turned in at least two times, including the DQed ones, slower than the Chinese pair.

Is that proof she isn't doping? Because she wasn't faster than than the Chinese? Are they now the watermark for doping, lose you are clean, win you are juicing?

Again go read my original question instead of being the British fan full of reactionary anger.

If Pendleton and Varnish did beat the Chinese team sprinters to Gold, would you think she was definitely clean given that most think the Chinese are doping?

Take your time to read the question slowly and answer in your own time.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
If Pendleton and Varnish did beat the Chinese team sprinters to Gold, would you think she was definitely clean given that most think the Chinese are doping?

Ah ok, IF she beat them, but if is always the start of a great debate.

So most THINK the Chinese are doping, and IF Pendleton had beaten them, I would think she was clean given her palmares and the fact she has been the top female sprinter for close to a decade with Olympic titles and World Championships to her name.

However your counter will be she has been doping throughout that time, although the forum seems to have only been discussing GB since the Tour de France. You win there and an entire country's athletic programme is tainted it seems. Our cricketers are No. 1 in the world, doping. Sailors? Doping. That clay pigeon shooter who just won gold, where did he come from? Doping. At least we can be confident the footballers and rugby players are clean, because they are rubbish.

Anyway we are about to go round the merry-go-round again. Every so often I get drawn to but I am happy I have made a my point, although I have little doubt it will get drowned out soon enough.
 
Oct 30, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
Ah ok, IF she beat them, but if is always the start of a great debate.

So most THINK the Chinese are doping, and IF Pendleton had beaten them, I would think she was clean given her palmares and the fact she has been the top female sprinter for close to a decade with Olympic titles and World Championships to her name.

However your counter will be she has been doping throughout that time, although the forum seems to have only been discussing GB since the Tour de France. You win there and an entire country's athletic programme is tainted it seems. Our cricketers are No. 1 in the world, doping. Sailors? Doping. That clay pigeon shooter who just won gold, where did he come from? Doping. At least we can be confident the footballers and rugby players are clean, because they are rubbish.

Anyway we are about to go round the merry-go-round again. Every so often I get drawn to but I am happy I have made a my point, although I have little doubt it will get drowned out soon enough.

+1.

The Clinic hates us British. We must be doing something right.
 
Markyboyzx6r said:
+1.

The Clinic hates us British. We must be doing something right.

Yeah, you point fingers against everybody else not coming from your peninsula claiming they are doped. Then you guys win and congratulates yourselves for it being a "clean win" (despite winning over the ones you said were doped up in the first place). Then another one wins and you claim it to be doping again. A certain Vinokourov and the BBC-treatment springs to mind here.

We are tired of your arrogance and now, when winning, you deserve to be under scrutiny. Life was much easier when it was Italy/Spain/Russia et.al. holding the dodgy torch, ey?
 
May 26, 2009
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Markyboyzx6r said:
+1.

The Clinic hates us British. We must be doing something right.

Yeah man! Just like we hate those Englis Schlecks, Contador, Armstrong, Riis, Indurain, Kohl, Rodgers!

Boo clinic for wanting clean cycling!