GB Track Team

[red_death]

Well excuse my hyperbole, but you can say whatever you like but I distinctly remember Miss Balding on the BBC (mainstream enough?) no less questioning the exploits of Ye in relation to possible illicit methods. Now I could be mistaken

You are mistaken / misinterpreting - she was discussing to the accusation made by the USA coach and lots of the BBC commentators (eg Adrian Moorhouse - much more famous swimmer than Claire Balding!) et al were saying how unfair the accusations were...

 

[JimmyFingers]

You are mistaken / misinterpreting - she was discussing to the accusation made by the USA coach and lots of the BBC commentators (eg Adrian Moorhouse - much more famous swimmer than Claire Balding!) et al were saying how unfair the accusations were...

I believe Adrian Moorhouse defended her by saying he improved his PB by four seconds when he was 16, and such jumps in performance are not unusual for swimmers her age

 

[simoni]

These accusations were made by an American coach and there has been no follow-up witch hunt in the UK media so essentially a baseless accusation.

Bauge was reported to be 'geuinely curious' at what Kenny has been doing in preparation in the media I have read, rather than a poor loser. Given his missed tests he gets no sympathy from me, but even that hasn't been made an issue of.

Seems yet another ill-informed dig at the British. And in this forum, what a surprise

The american guy looked a bit silly when their own 15 year old female swimmer made an improvement that was equivalent to Shiwen's in the 800m free.

 

[Machu Picchu]

Well excuse my hyperbole, but you can say whatever you like but I distinctly remember Miss Balding on the BBC (mainstream enough?) no less questioning the exploits of Ye in relation to possible illicit methods. Now I could be mistaken, but I do not seem to remember any such questions being asked in the Velodrome. There it was more hooray's and Britannia rules the waves all the way.

Regards
GJ

You're quite correct Clare did query her swim but not quite an accusation, probably in-between Steve Crams Makhloufi comments and soft lad Humphreys childlike questions regarding team GB success at the velodrome.

 

[Stueyy]

These accusations were made by an American coach and there has been no follow-up witch hunt in the UK media so essentially a baseless accusation.

Bauge was reported to be 'geuinely curious' at what Kenny has been doing in preparation in the media I have read, rather than a poor loser. Given his missed tests he gets no sympathy from me, but even that hasn't been made an issue of.

Seems yet another ill-informed dig at the British. And in this forum, what a surprise

Did you listen to the commentator for the 1500m last night Jimmy? Ok he didn't come out and say he thought the winner was a drug cheat but he did everything but. Gatlan was another they targeted and rightly so but no pointing the finger at Farrar, Ohuruogu or ANY GB athlete that I've watched. Did you see Hoy last night being interviewed in the studio? I quite like Chris and he's a legend of the sport but just wish he wouldn't lower himself to the level of Brailsford repeating the propaganda routine. Maybe he's after a job with British Cycling after this Olympics.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Did you listen to the commentator for the 1500m last night Jimmy? Ok he didn't come out and say he thought the winner was a drug cheat but he did everything but. Gatlan was another they targeted and rightly so but no pointing the finger at Farrar, Ohuruogu or ANY GB athlete that I've watched. Did you see Hoy last night being interviewed in the studio? I quite like Chris and he's a legend of the sport but just wish he wouldn't lower himself to the level of Brailsford repeating the propaganda routine. Maybe he's after a job with British Cycling after this Olympics.

I didn't see it, I was watching the Track on catch up, which athlete were they talking about?

Gatlan was banned, and should still be if he hadn't overturned a longer ban on appeal, if I understand right.

Absolutely no reason to point fingers at Mo Farah

Ohuruogu missed a test and has served her suspension. It is mentioned by the media.

I really don't get your point about Hoy, what is he supposed to be saying, it was the magic wheels?

Do you realise the British Olympic Association had a lifetime ban on athletes who had failed a test competing in the Olympics? And that ban got turned over on appeal because it wasn't inline with IOC/International policy. So this is why athletes like Dwaine Chambers and david Millar are able to compete, else they wouldn't be at the games.

That came in for a lot of criticism, from the media and from sporting figures like Sir Chris Hoy. I think the clinic's current bete noir even expressed regret at that lifetime ban being overturned.

Bottom line is the BOA wants a harder line than the IOC, we are very unforgiving as a society on drug cheats and yet there is a constant stream of anti-British sentiment regarding doping on these pages based on, well nothing really, complete ignorance half the time.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I quite like Chris and he's a legend of the sport but just wish he wouldn't lower himself to the level of Brailsford repeating the propaganda routine. Maybe he's after a job with British Cycling after this Olympics.

He's hardly likely to come out and say "Well I'm glad I've won, but you have to admit it all looks a bit suspicious, doesn't it?"

 

[JimmyFingers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/16/boa-olympic-ban-drugs-removed

First article I could find, but there are plenty more, and soundbites from the likes of Chris Hoy expressing regret at the ban being overturned

The move follows the BOA's defeat in court last month after a last-ditch attempt to hold on to the ban in the face of opposition from the World Anti-Doping Agency. The BOA have no alternative but to abide by the ruling of the court of arbitration for sport.

 

[GJB123]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/16/boa-olympic-ban-drugs-removed

First article I could find, but there are plenty more, and soundbites from the likes of Chris Hoy expressing regret at the ban being overturned

Just out of curiosity, why oh why did Brailsford select David Millar then if the UK cycling and BOC are so vehemently anti-doping? He could have just left him out. I can understand that for athletics you either do or do not qualify based on your time (Chambers for example). But selecting the road race team is much more subjective and no one would have batted an eyelid if he had left out Millar.

Regards
GJ

 

[lemoogle]

Why would he beat him every year? Motivation, willingness to train as hard, prioritisation all come into play. It isn't as though he is a no hoper for 3 years and then pulls something completely different out of the bag - we are talking fractions of a second difference here.

From a few tenth worse than bauge to a few tenth better, that is not a small difference on a 10 second event.
The UK also improved their team sprint time from april by about 1 second. If you follow the sport as you say , this is a MASSIVE difference, a new 1 will make a couple tenths of difference but what we're talking about here is ridiculous.

 

[lemoogle]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/16/boa-olympic-ban-drugs-removed

First article I could find, but there are plenty more, and soundbites from the likes of Chris Hoy expressing regret at the ban being overturned

Athlete A says doping is bad, Athlete A must be clean!
Athlete B says he would lose so much from doping, he must be clean!

I do wish we'd hear once in a while "If I got caught I would lose everything I've achieved through doping" but a man can dream.

 

[gheizhwinder]

One thing that should be pointed out with respect to the whole "marginal gains" thing is that three words are being routinely missed out: "The aggregation of..."

Brailsford isn't claiming the gains are small, he is claiming that making gains in every available department (and there are prima facie more such departments in cycling than in most other sports) leads to large gains overall.

Now, whether this is ridiculous or not is another question. I think the idea is frequently being misrepresented here.

 

[Benotti69]

Err no it isn't - why was Bauge not banned for 2 years? Or Ohurogu?

The Wada code actually specifies 2 years for failed tests and min 1 year (max 2 years) for missed tests. Though application of reductions seems much more variable for missed tests.

Source: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...DP-The-Code/WADA_Anti-Doping_CODE_2009_EN.pdf

Bauge, you must take up with the relevant French federation.

Ohurogu, take up with the relevant British Federation

Rasmussen got banned for 18months by the Danish Cycling federation according to WADA rules. Fact.

That the various sporting bodies do it differently, well the devil is in the details and the politics of each situation

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Just out of curiosity, why oh why did Brailsford select David Millar then if the UK cycling and BOC are so vehemently anti-doping? He could have just left him out. I can understand that for athletics you either do or do not qualify based on your time (Chambers for example). But selecting the road race team is much more subjective and no one would have batted an eyelid if he had left out Millar.

Good question. Particular the point about subjectivity in selecting Millar vs absolute factors re Chambers.

Funding via the Lottery depends on performance in the OGs, not on acts of morality. Thus, whilst it might have been the "right thing" to not select Millar, there is no financial benefit to British Cycling from so doing. Cav wanted Millar in the team, and Cav was a decent shot at a road race medal. Millar's tactical shredness during the World Champs RR last year was apparently much valued by young Master Cavendish. Thus, commercial logic dictates that Millar gets selected.

The defence is obviously that the BOA ban has been chucked out following a CAS hearing, so it's not like British Cycling was doing anything outlandish: they simply selected what they thought was the best eligible team.

Christine O's case was more of a concern to me. UK Athletics petitioned the BOA to change the rules so that she wasn't banned from the OGs. (Prior to this, any doping offence carried a life ban. Post Christine, it's only offences that get a ban longer than 21 months that incurred the BOA sanction.) She was actually training in a GB training camp prior to the 2007 WCs before her 12 month ban for missing tests had expired. This made their treatment of Chambers in 2008 even more ridiculous than it was on face value!

This does illustrate a serious point: Some dopers are nice people (Millar and Christine O) whilst others have faces that don't fit (eg Chambers after an unwise interview on the BBC some years back.) If your face fits, then the sporting authorities will help you out. If it doesn't fit, you get thrown to the wolves. Thus, whilst the likes of Chris Hoy probably genuinely do think it's a shame that the BOA ban has gone, he probably equally genuinely thinks Millar is a nice guy, has served his time and deserves his place. You get the same inconsistency with parents - they all all think disruptive kids should get the book thrown at them at school, until it's their own child, at which point, special factors come into play.

Human nature I guess. And I'm certainly not immune to this when my kids are involved. Not that they are ever disruptive, of course.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Funding via the Lottery depends on performance in the OGs, not on acts of morality

That's a key point. To ensure the best funding for the next cycle, DB had to pick the team that gave the best chances for a medal. In the end it didn't work out, but Millar was more use than say Ben Swift would have been.

(Personally I would have rather had a fully fit Steve Cummings, but he wasn't in that condition after a rough year)

 

[VO2 Max]

The big unknown with the track team is the degree of influence that the cycling schooling in the UK has - we can probably agree that the European peloton is full of guys that would have Olympic track medals if that had been the only available route into cycling. Talent team -> WCPP -> ODP -> Olympic team. Would Geraint Thomas stuff up his road season to focus on the track at this point in his career if he were Belgian or basically anything other than British?

Are Team GB doping? Well obviously they are, they'd be stupid not to: 1. There are still competitive things you can get away with as we know; and 2. If they weren't running a programme then they risk a rider taking things into their own hands and maybe screwing up the whole team by getting caught. But I doubt they've got anything magically better than anyone else.

 

[RownhamHill]

The problem always comes back to this: all the names mentioned (except Moser lol) are outright champions in whatever pursuit (sorry couldn't help it hehe) they chose to perform in - Coppi, Merckx, Riviere, and non-cyclists like Gebrselassie. Wiggo was not, he had all those years in the autobus just avoiding the broome cart, then whammo!

H'mm.

So what you're saying is that the junior world champion, senior world champion, four time olympic gold meadlist (on both track and road, over three Olympic games), TdF winner, GT podiumist (x2 once USADA get finished), and the winner of Paris Nice and 2x Dauphine, with probably another 2-3 years of his peak career left to go, isn't an outright champion. And he's not an outright champion because he spent two years racing in the tour de france as a domestique/breakway specialist (at a time which coincided with a period in which he actually was the outright champion in the pursuit (sorry couldn't help it hehe) which he was choosing to concentrate on at the time, and was also, coincidentally, a period in which the winner of the first race was stripped of his title for doping, and the leader of the second race was withdrawn days before he won, because he'd been, ermm, doping)?

I'm not sure history is going to agree with you on this one.

 

[Lanark]

One thing that should be pointed out with respect to the whole "marginal gains" thing is that three words are being routinely missed out: "The aggregation of..."

Brailsford isn't claiming the gains are small, he is claiming that making gains in every available department (and there are prima facie more such departments in cycling than in most other sports) leads to large gains overall.

Now, whether this is ridiculous or not is another question. I think the idea is frequently being misrepresented here.

There is no misrepresentation. Everybody here understands this.

 

[gheizhwinder]

Point taken. I may have misunderstood some things written in jest.

As you were.

 

[hrotha]

It's funny that Millar wasn't kosher for Sky but is apparently fine for the national team which is run by the same guy. Something tells me Brailsford wishes he hadn't said certain things so that he could sign Millar - that would be more in line with his current views on the sport.

 

[sittingbison]

H'mm.

So what you're saying is that the junior world champion, senior world champion, four time olympic gold meadlist (on both track and road, over three Olympic games), TdF winner, GT podiumist (x2 once USADA get finished), and the winner of Paris Nice and 2x Dauphine, with probably another 2-3 years of his peak career left to go, isn't an outright champion. And he's not an outright champion because he spent two years racing in the tour de france as a domestique/breakway specialist (at a time which coincided with a period in which he actually was the outright champion in the pursuit (sorry couldn't help it hehe) which he was choosing to concentrate on at the time, and was also, coincidentally, a period in which the winner of the first race was stripped of his title for doping, and the leader of the second race was withdrawn days before he won, because he'd been, ermm, doping)?

I'm not sure history is going to agree with you on this one.

errrmm....no that's not what I said at all, that's what you thought because you can't come to grips with a simple concept.

No dispute Wiggo was an outright champion on the track. No dispute he is TdF winner and now Olympic ITT gold medallist.

The point is these were not at the same time, unlike all the other names mentioned. Once again no explanation how he went from one discipline to the other when essentially nobody else has accomplished it (and almost not even really in any other sport either). The one or two people who have were champs at everything at the same time.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's funny that Millar wasn't kosher for Sky but is apparently fine for the national team which is run by the same guy. Something tells me Brailsford wishes he hadn't said certain things so that he could sign Millar - that would be more in line with his current views on the sport.

Since he is part-owner of Garmin I doubt he'd ride against his own team, whatever Brailsford's desire to have him at Sky

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm not sure history is going to agree with you on this one.

couldn't have said it better.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Once again no explanation how he went from one discipline to the other when essentially nobody else has accomplished it (and almost not even really in any other sport either).

The key word here is "almost". Almost nobody has switched from one distinct discipline to another, but a decidely non-zero number of people have, Rebecca Romero being the most striking switcher.

No-one's saying that all top pursuiters can become GT contenders, just that it's possible with an exceptional athlete. Which Wiggo is. Most pursuiters are too much like sprinters to succeed in the GTs, as evidenced by how many become sprinters or lead-out men on the road. Wiggo is an endurance athlete with just enough speed to prosper in the pursuit.

The explanation is simple: Start training specifically for events that last three weeks rather than 4 minutes, lose weight and ride for a team with a huge budget that can buy you a lot of quality helpers. Oh and get a bit lucky with the route and the opposition. Other than Evans and Nibs, all the riders with proven GT potential were either banned, injured, kn*ckered from the Giro or contractually obliged to not attack Wiggo. Nibs was never going to win on a course with ~100k of ITT in any case.

Wiggo would have struggled in a big way, even with Froome on his side, in the 2011 Giro even in this year's form.

I accept that folk may not accept that the explanation is valid, but to say none has been provided just isn't true. Given the plethora of timed pursuit performances available via Google, it should be pretty easy to conclude whether Wiggo's basic "engine" is sufficient to produce one-off performances at the level he does. Then the issue boils down to his natural ability to recover, which is very hard to assess either way.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The key word here is "almost". Almost nobody has switched from one distinct discipline to another, but a decidely non-zero number of people have, Rebecca Romero being the most striking switcher.

Thanx, that put a nice smile on my face.