Geert Leinders

[Wallace and Gromit]

Txema Gonzalez went into hospital pretty much the first day of the 2010 Vuelta, and died from memory 5 days later. So August/September 2010.

By the time he died, 3 Sky riders had pulled out with a "stomach virus". The entire team pulled out after Txema's death.

This was after the 24th place domination of the 2010 Tour by Brad and the boys, so no reason at all to suspect they were playing around with blood transfusions or anything like that, no sir, not a bit.

I can see the potential link between three riders pulling out due to a "stomach virus" and a new doping strategy following the Tour debacle, but fail to see how the death of the soigneur can be related. I don't think even USPS/Lance went as far as doping the support staff to make them massage better or cook more imaginatively etc.

Maybe the soigneur mistook dodgy "medicine" in the Sky cupboard for his own legitimate medicine, but the post-mortem would presumably have highlighted this. Sounds a bit far-fetched as a theory to link this event to the team's doping. Pulling the entire team out following the death doesn't seem unreasonable either. Teams generally carry on after fatal "racing incidents" but to lose one of the support staff is not normal (as one might say) and would presumably affect riders differently to losing a team-mate/fried on the road.

 

[Daniel]

Worth pointing out that it actually was an open change of policy. Brailsford came out and said after the 2010 season that they were going to drop their initial 'whiter than white' stance.

The 'whiter than white' stance was probably not workable. We know this sport, and probably many other endurance sports, has gone through a doping-infested period, what might, arguably, not be over. That means that the majority of so-called experts in the field have had past dealings with doping, even if it were only a slight brush. Excluding those people would have meant a gap in non-doping related expertise.

One of the jobs of Leinders at Rabobank was keeping the riders healthy. While this was probably also related to the riders' individual doping practices, that was not his only job. Anyone who has followed cycling closely over the past decade should know that some of Rabobank's biggest stars had major problems with saddle sores, just think of one of their main riders and winner the past decade, Oscar Freire. So, Leinder might have actually been hired by Sky for his expertise in treating saddle sores. Even if that's a lie, a good lie always contains a bit of truth. I would expect Leinders to be the go-to guy for saddle sores within team sky, before he was slightly side-tracked due to bad publicity. Regarding this role, it makes sense that his job was only part-time.

 

[hrotha]

The 'whiter than white' stance was probably not workable. We know this sport, and probably many other endurance sports, has gone through a doping-infested period, what might, arguably, not be over. That means that the majority of so-called experts in the field have had past dealings with doping, even if it were only a slight brush. Excluding those people would have meant a gap in non-doping related expertise.

One of the jobs of Leinders at Rabobank was keeping the riders healthy. While this was probably also related to the riders' individual doping practices, that was not his only job. Anyone who has followed cycling closely over the past decade should know that some of Rabobank's biggest stars had major problems with saddle sores, just think of one of their main riders and winner the past decade, Oscar Freire. So, Leinder might have actually been hired by Sky for his expertise in treating saddle sores. Even if that's a lie, a good lie always contains a bit of truth. I would expect Leinders to be the go-to guy for saddle sores within team sky, before he was slightly side-tracked due to bad publicity. Regarding this role, it makes sense that his job was only part-time.

But Brailsford justified signing Leinders as a way to prevent Sky members from dropping dead in the Spanish heat.

 

[Franklin]

To me, the role of Leinders in Sky's doping program, if it exists, seems superficial at best. Just as it probably was with Rabobank. While Leinders' presence at Sky questions the truthfulness of their hiring policy, it hardly proves anything regarding doping.

The bolded part is so extremely ridiculous it needs yet another smackdown.

1. Geert Leinders was not just the main doctor, he was part of the management team.
2. He got carte blanche to create a GT winner. There is no second guessing this one, it doesn't get much clearer than that.
3. He was guilty of doping fraud in the MR case. that's not wolves howling, that is a certified court statement!
4. Under Geert's management we have 4 Gt wins (counting MR). The list of teams that do better is not only short, we all know how fishy those are.

Downplaying Geert's role at Rabo is flat out against the facts. I could add the testimonies which were never denied, I could point out that the head doctor of Rabo would have noticed the Human Plasma trips in his own medical scans (and the needle marks).

I'm absolutely amazed that a Doctor who is being deemed a fraud, has worked with reknown dopers (and Menchov) and has testimonies about his agenda in the open is being seen as a small fry.

And yes, it seems Geert is very good at letting riders not being caught.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

One of the jobs of Leinders at Rabobank was keeping the riders healthy. While this was probably also related to the riders' individual doping practices, that was not his only job. Anyone who has followed cycling closely over the past decade should know that some of Rabobank's biggest stars had major problems with saddle sores, just think of one of their main riders and winner the past decade, Oscar Freire. So, Leinder might have actually been hired by Sky for his expertise in treating saddle sores. Even if that's a lie, a good lie always contains a bit of truth. I would expect Leinders to be the go-to guy for saddle sores within team sky, before he was slightly side-tracked due to bad publicity. Regarding this role, it makes sense that his job was only part-time.

furphy: noun; is Australian slang for a rumour, or an erroneous or improbable story..

How can Leinders possibly help with saddle sores when he is not at the 2 longest, hottest temperature races of the year: Tour de France in the middle of summer and the Vuelta?

- BUT -

He is at the smaller, short tours in spring. You know. When it's cool weather?

How many other teams had problems with saddle sores - I have not heard of anyone complaining publicly about this. How do you know they had the problems for real? and it wasn't just a plausible cover back in the day?

 

[Franklin]

This is what I tend to believe too. To suggest that Leinders was/is a player among the pantheon of sought after doping doctors is no more valid than the proposition that he simply managed riders' numbers, out of personal choice or lack of nous.

We know that big name riders on Rabo went outside (as most still do today). We also know that Leinders didn't go to another big team.

It is not impossible that Leinders didn't want to join that pantheon and he did not seek notoriety and pots of money, although I accept that - in the latter case - publishing those books could suggest the opposite.

I don't think that this is downplaying Leinders' involvement at Rabo. He knew the score and so must Sky have when it bought his services. But I don't think you can automatically brand Leinders a doping player just because Sky is creepy. Not yet anyway.

Yes, you are downplaying Leinders role.

He might not be a haemetologist, but he certainly played a huge role in the facilitating and manageing of a doped core team.

It's quite simple, he was the responsible person at Rabo due to his position. And to drive it home, we have the testimony that he was ordered to do everything needed to create a GT winner.

 

[peterst6906]

I don't think even USPS/Lance went as far as doping the support staff to make them massage better or cook more imaginatively etc.

Maybe not, but Sean Kelly might have a different opinion of the use of drugs by team staff.

The death of a soigneur (or anyone) is tragic and I wouldn't suggest a link to a team drug program even with 3 riders having stomach flu. However, drugs are not only used by the riders, but have in the past been used by other team staff for a range of reasons.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe not, but Sean Kelly might have a different opinion of the use of drugs by team staff.

Please continue.

 

[peterst6906]

Please continue.

Really? How long have you been following cycling?

Go Google it yourself, even Wikipedia has the details of Kelly's positive from a mechanics urine as a result of the mechanic taking drugs.

It's not like Sean Kelly is a nobody. You should be able to find details of his drugs positives as one of the greatest cyclists in history.

 

[hrotha]

Kelly's mechanic wasn't using PEDs per se, though. He was trying to keep himself going (so ok, that was enhancing his performance I suppose). Willy Voet however tested the PEDs that he was going to administer to his riders on himself.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Kelly's mechanic wasn't using PEDs per se, though. He was trying to keep himself going (so ok, that was enhancing his performance I suppose). Willy Voet however tested the PEDs that he was going to administer to his riders on himself.

I thought I had heard something like this - a soigneur testing drugs on himself. Thanks for the lead. Willy wrote a book too didn't he? Any idea if it is worth a read? Breaking the chain?

 

[peterst6906]

Kelly's mechanic wasn't using PEDs per se, though. He was trying to keep himself going (so ok, that was enhancing his performance I suppose). Willy Voet however tested the PEDs that he was going to administer to his riders on himself.

Yes, also well known.

 

[Tinman]

Really? How long have you been following cycling?

Go Google it yourself, even Wikipedia has the details of Kelly's positive from a mechanics urine as a result of the mechanic taking drugs.

It's not like Sean Kelly is a nobody. You should be able to find details of his drugs positives as one of the greatest cyclists in history.

Sean Yates. Yes. Interesting what google can do for you. Used to be Lance's big mate. Then went to Linda McCartney's vegan team run by Julian Clark before Julian took that down the gurgler and ended up in the slammer (Julian said to have been a major Lance fanboy here on the forum until not long ago, rumored to still be very active on twitter). Sean then ended up being invited back to Discovery by Lance, then Astana, and eventually at Sky, in front of Motoman's shop...

Interesting... Yes...

 

[Daniel]

The bolded part is so extremely ridiculous it needs yet another smackdown.

1. Geert Leinders was not just the main doctor, he was part of the management team.
2. He got carte blanche to create a GT winner. There is no second guessing this one, it doesn't get much clearer than that.
3. He was guilty of doping fraud in the MR case. that's not wolves howling, that is a certified court statement!
4. Under Geert's management we have 4 Gt wins (counting MR). The list of teams that do better is not only short, we all know how fishy those are.

Downplaying Geert's role at Rabo is flat out against the facts. I could add the testimonies which were never denied, I could point out that the head doctor of Rabo would have noticed the Human Plasma trips in his own medical scans (and the needle marks).

I'm absolutely amazed that a Doctor who is being deemed a fraud, has worked with reknown dopers (and Menchov) and has testimonies about his agenda in the open is being seen as a small fry.

And yes, it seems Geert is very good at letting riders not being caught.

Funny that while you are referring to statements made, you let out important statements just to build your case. If you are claiming I'm selective, take a look at your own selection bias, too. To get a complete picture, we should also incorporate the statements regarding the disorganized nature of Rabobank's program. As stated by Theo de Rooij, doping practices were allowed to take place; as can be inferred from multiple sources, different Rabobank riders used different external facilities, like Human Plasma, links to Spain and Dutch local, non-team facilities.

If we now reconstruct the image, we can see a different pattern emerging. Rabobank did not have an organized doping program within the team, but tolerated/condoned doping practices, facilitating it by trying to ensure healthy practices and keeping them out of trouble (testing negative). The well-documented case of Leinders being given a cart blanche mainly concerns him being allowed to keep riders safe while keeping them on doping practices. The sources of that cart blanche also state that the use of stimulants was personal business for riders, hence the plentiful links to external facilities. As far as I know, there are no sources whatsoever that suggest that Leinders himself organized a doping program or even encouraged riders to seek out external facilities.* Use of stimulants was a personal choice of riders.


*) Neither did they need to, by condoning it they provided an environment for the riders to encourage each other.

 

[Tinman]

It's not like Sean Kelly is a nobody.

Interesting you mention Sean Kelly. Some googling there reveals he is an old time cycling buddy of Pat McQuaid. Also did some doping... Never much talks about it on Eurosport though.

And guess who controls the broadcasting rights to Eurosport cycling events coverage. Old uncle Pat at UCI. Ever wondered why Sean Kelly was our commentator? There you have it, part of the "cycling family" we hear Pat talk about all the time...

 

[pmcg76]

Interesting you mention Sean Kelly. Some googling there reveals he is an old time cycling buddy of Pat McQuaid. Also did some doping... Never much talks about it on Eurosport though.

And guess who controls the broadcasting rights to Eurosport cycling events coverage. Old uncle Pat at UCI. Ever wondered why Sean Kelly was our commentator? There you have it, part of the "cycling family" we hear Pat talk about all the time...

I think Kelly has his job primarily because he is very good at "making the calculation"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Really? How long have you been following cycling?

Cycling

I thought this was a rowing forum. My bad.

 

[Tinman]

part of the "cycling family" we hear Pat talk about all the time...

Sorry can't be bothered with threads anymore. Whoever wants to put it where it belongs. This whole UCI and other sports admin show is just one big stinking heap of manure.

Just discovered another new member of Pat's cycling family. FIFA's Sepp Blatter's nephew. Via the new media deal UCI has signed.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/uci_set_for_commercial_growth_after_landmark_infront_deal

 

[Tinman]

Just discovered another new member of Pat's cycling family. FIFA's Sepp Blatter's nephew. Via the new media deal UCI has signed.

And where are our sports journo's? nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. UCI deal announcement from 3 weeks ago...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sorry can't be bothered with threads anymore. Whoever wants to put it where it belongs. This whole UCI and other sports admin show is just one big stinking heap of manure.

Just discovered another new member of Pat's cycling family. FIFA's Sepp Blatter's nephew. Via the new media deal UCI has signed.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/uci_set_for_commercial_growth_after_landmark_infront_deal

I could be an arrogant git and say "Also well known", but I won't

It's a nice little circle of nepotism they have going on.

 

[RownhamHill]

I could be an arrogant git and say "Also well known", but I won't .

Ermmm, you just did, didn't you?

 

[Tinman]

I could be an arrogant git and say "Also well known", but I won't

Nepotism within sports admins is not new to me. This deal was. And the lack of pick up/reporting on it. And I suspect to you too. If not just post it in a one liner.This stuff has to be brought out and eventually rooted out, for our kids and grandkids (and for you when you grow to my age). Nice ambiguity though in your post. And as for arrogance and confidence, it's a fine line especially at your age. No problem for me at all, I was like that at your age . Keep contributing we need it.

 

[Telmisartan new]

I thought I had heard something like this - a soigneur testing drugs on himself. Thanks for the lead. Willy wrote a book too didn't he? Any idea if it is worth a read? Breaking the chain?

Yeah,Breaking the chain is a good read although best avoided by Virenque fanboys, he doesn't come out it too well....Willy Voet primarily used drugs to stay awake whilst driving long distances to races but also when out partying,liked his amphetamines and "Belgian mix",he only really tested stuff for the riders when it was new.The picture i get from alot of these cycling books about that era (David Millar's book about his time at Cofidis is the same) is one of non-stop partying and debauchery, the Pro Tour then was more like a rock band tour,girls,drugs,alcohol,nightclubs,its a miracle anyone could even race....

 

[sniper]

Jeebus, the press can't even figure out whether the guy is Dutch or Belgian.

belgian:
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1018/Wielren.../10/Ploegarts-Leinders-weg-bij-Team-Sky.dhtml

dutch:
http://road.cc/content/news/68664-t...ll-no-longer-work-dutch-doctor-geert-leinders

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yeah,Breaking the chain is a good read although best avoided by Virenque fanboys, he doesn't come out it too well....Willy Voet primarily used drugs to stay awake whilst driving long distances to races but also when out partying,liked his amphetamines and "Belgian mix",he only really tested stuff for the riders when it was new.The picture i get from alot of these cycling books about that era (David Millar's book about his time at Cofidis is the same) is one of non-stop partying and debauchery, the Pro Tour then was more like a rock band tour,girls,drugs,alcohol,nightclubs,its a miracle anyone could even race....

Thanks. It's available epub so I'll add it to the list.