General Doping Thread.

[Sciatic]

I continue to find it extremely strange that referring to the infamous food app is not allowed in the regular forum. Of course, also doping, which is still common. But it is now much more sophisticated and extremely scientific. Banning this and only allowing in the clinic is not only extremely hypocritical, but also often creates artificial discussions on the forum. As if doping would no longer exist.
Other forms of cheating, deliberately hindering riders, combines, etc. are apparently allowed to be discussed on the forum.
With this policy and only allowing doping discussions in back rooms, you are only playing into the hands of those teams that consciously use doping in their program.

Re: doping discussions, what you’re saying makes sense in terms of, I don’t know the right word, what is the reality. But I completely agree with the forum policy that keeping doping talk here keeps race threads sane and enjoyable. It is such a hot-button topic that there are some folks who are fervent defenders (of cleans riding) that they will jump on and hijack every thread.
The letsrun.com forum is a crazy morass of nitwittery anyways, but there are two posters who, once doping is mentioned, will completely take over and pollute every thread with any doping talk.

I’m not discounting your position which like I said I think is valid. But I know why I follow and participate in the CN forums: for my entertainment and to learn (especially from folks in other countries who get news I can’t) from the race threads. Both would be severely diminished if doping talk was allowed.

 

[Red Rick]

No doping talk outside of Clinic is useless if you can hide behind a few euphemisms everyone understands

 

[shadowrider]

A prohibition on discussing doping outside the forum is of long standing here. You may discuss it freely within the Clinic threads.
I have said that there might be conversation that is genuinely and specifically about the food app, but it should be very clear that that, and only that, is what is meant.
I have already quoted back to you evidence that you are not using it in that sense [He can't use the "food-app" (in fact the medical preparation at night)...]

But as you known, almost nobody consults" the clinic" or has discussions there. The result remains the same. Doping is deliberately kept silent here. Why ? No idea.
Most people are grown up (although there are also some trolls and toddlers on this forum) and know very well when and when not to write about doping. It is not the case that doping would immediately be referred to every time a rider wins. Yes, when clear trends are visible. Such as in the past at Astana, a few years ago at Bahrain (until the almost fatal incident with Colbrelli) and in recent years at Jumbo (Visma) and UAE. There it was and is very clear. Of course, I do not consider it impossible that other teams sometimes abuse the gaps in regulations and controls.
As a physiologist myself and having collegues working in a doping lab, I known (off record) that residues of doping products (EPO-like and hormonal) can regularly be found. But always in very small quantities. Below the limit.

These doping products are administered in micro-doses at 10 p.m., after which no doping control is permitted until the morning. If a check does take place the next day, nothing is found or only in quantities below the established limit. If the checks were also allowed to take place at night (I know, that is difficult without disturbing your night's sleep), residues above the limit would be found.

This is to indicate that the doping problem is real and quite serious...... But let's cover it up in the clinic.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You're not "covering it up in the clinic": you are discussing it perfectly openly in the clinic, which is absolutely allowable. This part of the forum is just as accessible as any other, nothing hidden about it.

But it has long been the convention here to prevent every thread being dominated by talk of doping, whether speculative or evidence based, by making a separate area for that.

Of course it can be seen as a disadvantage that conversation is forked into two threads, but the consensus seems to be that this is preferable to derailing of threads otherwise.

Most people are grown up (although there are also some trolls and toddlers on this forum) and know very well when and when not to write about doping.

We also ask you to know where not to write about doping.

 

[shadowrider]

You're not "covering it up in the clinic": you are discussing it perfectly openly in the clinic, which is perfectly allowable. This part of the forum is just as accessible as any other, nothing hidden about it.

But it has long been the convention here to prevent every thread being dominated by talk of doping, whether speculative or evidence based, by making a separate area for that.

Of course it can be seen as a disadvantage that conversation is forked into two threads, but the consensus seems to be that this is preferable to derailing of threads otherwise.

OK. But I think it's the wrong choice.

 

[Sciatic]

But as you known, almost nobody consults" the clinic" or has discussions there. The result remains the same. Doping is deliberately kept silent here. Why ? No idea.
Most people are grown up (although there are also some trolls and toddlers on this forum) and know very well when and when not to write about doping. It is not the case that doping would immediately be referred to every time a rider wins. Yes, when clear trends are visible. Such as in the past at Astana, a few years ago at Bahrain (until the almost fatal incident with Colbrelli) and in recent years at Jumbo (Visma) and UAE. There it was and is very clear. Of course, I do not consider it impossible that other teams sometimes abuse the gaps in regulations and controls.
As a physiologist myself and having collegues working in a doping lab, I known (off record) that residues of doping products (EPO-like and hormonal) can regularly be found. But always in very small quantities. Below the limit.

These doping products are administered in micro-doses at 10 p.m., after which no doping control is permitted until the morning. If a check does take place the next day, nothing is found or only in quantities below the established limit. If the checks were also allowed to take place at night (I know, that is difficult without disturbing your night's sleep), residues above the limit would be found.

This is to indicate that the doping problem is real and quite serious...... But let's cover it up in the clinic.

Whether or not we talk about doping in other subforums or not has no impact on what is happening in the sport. But it will impact are ability to enjoy other parts of the forum, especially race threads.

As I acknowledged above, you’re right that separating them imposes a false reality. That is 21st century life. In the U.S., 95% of sports fans don’t believe or don’t care about the existence of or extent of doping going on in their fav sports here. So it’s a familiar landscape to have people keep their head in the sand. Being more transparent in CN forums isn’t going to change sports fans or the general population who choose to keep ignoring it. So what do you think it would achieve here?

 

[Tricycle Rider]

But as you known, almost nobody consults" the clinic" or has discussions there. The result remains the same. Doping is deliberately kept silent here. Why ? No idea.
Most people are grown up (although there are also some trolls and toddlers on this forum) and know very well when and when not to write about doping. It is not the case that doping would immediately be referred to every time a rider wins. Yes, when clear trends are visible. Such as in the past at Astana, a few years ago at Bahrain (until the almost fatal incident with Colbrelli) and in recent years at Jumbo (Visma) and UAE. There it was and is very clear. Of course, I do not consider it impossible that other teams sometimes abuse the gaps in regulations and controls.
As a physiologist myself and having collegues working in a doping lab, I known (off record) that residues of doping products (EPO-like and hormonal) can regularly be found. But always in very small quantities. Below the limit.

These doping products are administered in micro-doses at 10 p.m., after which no doping control is permitted until the morning. If a check does take place the next day, nothing is found or only in quantities below the established limit. If the checks were also allowed to take place at night (I know, that is difficult without disturbing your night's sleep), residues above the limit would be found.

This is to indicate that the doping problem is real and quite serious...... But let's cover it up in the clinic.

I think most of us have learned to compartmentalize posting in a live race thread, for example, vs. posting in a Clinic thread... I think it's actually kinda funny. While a race is going and we're posting live we don't mention doping, but when the race is over and the results are suspicious we meet here in the Clinic and laugh or post in astonishment and disbelief. (Doesn't mean we don't still appreciate cycling as whole.)

I guess it's kinda like if you went to work or church and then right after you head to a bar to let loose and let your hair down. Besides the occasional doping euphemisms in the regular forum it seems to work. And it is true that some people prefer to not even think about doping because it ruins their enjoyment of following a sport, (hence they wouldn't even be caught dead in the Clinic), not much we can do about that.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Re: doping discussions, what you’re saying makes sense in terms of, I don’t know the right word, what is the reality. But I completely agree with the forum policy that keeping doping talk here keeps race threads sane and enjoyable. It is such a hot-button topic that there are some folks who are fervent defenders (of cleans riding) that they will jump on and hijack every thread.
The letsrun.com forum is a crazy morass of nitwittery anyways, but there are two posters who, once doping is mentioned, will completely take over and pollute every thread with any doping talk.

I’m not discounting your position which like I said I think is valid. But I know why I follow and participate in the CN forums: for my entertainment and to learn (especially from folks in other countries who get news I can’t) from the race threads. Both would be severely diminished if doping talk was allowed.

Funny you mention the letsrun forum, that place is such a mess I quit reading because so many threads got hijacked by politics talk. (While politics do play a role in sport thank goodness we got rid of the politics forum here, too much animosity got built up there and it spilled over into cycling threads.)

 

[Sciatic]

Funny you mention the letsrun forum, that place is such a mess I quit reading because so many threads got hijacked by politics talk. (While politics do play a role in sport thank goodness we got rid of the politics forum here, too much animosity got built up there and it spilled over into cycling threads.)

Yeah, it’s chaos there—I still go sometimes when there’s a surprise result (like this year’s Olympic marathon qualifier for U.S. women) because I know some folks have have pertinent info. But every thread eventually devolves into the mud.

 

[Rob5091]

Re-testing of 2016 Olympics doping controls finds Ligandrol ...
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gr...tive-in-re-analysis-of-2016-olympics-samples/

The UCI announced that it has provisionally suspended Greek track sprinter Christos Volikákis, 36, after he tested positive for an experimental drug, Ligandrol (LGD-4033), in the re-analysis of doping controls taken at the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Ligandrol is a selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM), a class of drugs that activate androgen receptors, providing the same benefits as anabolic steroids without the side effects on reproductive organs. SARMs are prohibited substances under class S1.2 (Other Anabolic Agents) of the Prohibited List.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Interview with Jesus Manzano, he is but a humble gardener, nowadays.

“El Tour no se gana con un solomillo”

El exciclista Jesús Manzano, que denunció en AS el dopaje generalizado en el pelotón en 2004, recibe 20 años después a los mismos reporteros en Zarzalejo.

as.com

Timeline of the Kelme affair from 2004 with articles

www.cyclingnews.com news and analysis

Actovegin is still not banned.

This part is hilarious from when he was about to come forward;

Speaking on the revelations he plans to make, Manzano admitted that it was a question of payback for the team that left him without a job this year.

"I'm not doing it for the money," he said, "but for revenge."

 

[Rob5091]

"Move fast, break things" No, it's not WvA's accident, but the men behind the "Enhanced Games"
https://www.bbc.com/sport/68672104

"The Enhanced Games can turn humans into superhumans. It sounds like science fiction but this new kind of superhumanity is possible within our lifetime.

"On a fundamental, philosophical level we have the ability to overcome the weakness of our feeble biological forms and become something more."

Time for the Ûbermensch! Or as Mel Brooks put it, "Look out! Here comes the Master Race".

 

[Sciatic]

"Move fast, break things" No, it's not WvA's accident, but the men behind the "Enhanced Games"
https://www.bbc.com/sport/68672104

Time for the Ûbermensch! Or as Mel Brooks put it, "Look out! Here comes the Master Race".

Could be interesting—but only if they open betting on which tendons, ligaments, and cartilage will rupture first for a each competitor

 

[Rob5091]

Could be interesting—but only if they open betting on which tendons, ligaments, and cartilage will rupture first for a each competitor

Maybe combine the "Enhanced Games" and "Onecycling" project, to have "Enhanced Cycling"?! Oh yeah, we have that already! (plus Movistar have already started combined cycling and boxing ... )

 

[Rob5091]

What better news could you ask for then W52 could be on their way back! Yeah, baby! Make Portugese Cycling Great again!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...2-fc-porto-despite-riders-admitting-to-doping

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Alaphillipe, Masnada, Honore, Cavendish, Bennett, Almida, Lampaert, senechal, asgreen, ballerini, Cattaneo were all world beaters in 2021!!!

Yup, (moved your quote here). What Im getting at is in 2021 Ibarguren left Quick Step end of year. From there on they all started to gradually (or more) decline at the classics team.

 

[snipeheem]

Ok so i ask here , is there any chance that pog/jonas are clean?

 

[Netserk]

Ok so i ask here , is there any chance that pog/jonas are clean?

No.

 

[Froome]

No.

"The last thing I'll say for the people that don't believe in cycling, the Netserks and the sceptics, I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles..."

 

[Ripper]

"The last thing I'll say for the people that don't believe in cycling, the Netserks and the sceptics, I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles..."

You should at least name the reference material 😆

 

[Froome]

You should at least name the reference material 😆

 

[Kwaremonster]

Yup, (moved your quote here). What Im getting at is in 2021 Ibarguren left Quick Step end of year. From there on they all started to gradually (or more) decline at the classics team.

Interesting, it would answer for me the mysterious case of Kasper Asgreen.

But unlike the names in that group, the performances of Evenepoel didn't drop. Also, Alaphilippe and Asgreen signed long term contracts that year. Are we to assume either Levere is not aware of that program (and is a very good actor with his rants) or the leaving of Ibarguren took him by surprise?

 

[Rob5091]

Enhanced Games, WADA, some rich guys who want to make some more money, Netflix docuseries/reality TV etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-enhanced-games-sporting-event-drugs-tv-sport

Governing bodies have aided and abetted this. The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has said of the Enhanced Games: “If you want to destroy any concept of fair play and fair competition in sport, this would be a good way to do it.” Mm. Another good way to do it would be by simply acting like the IOC itself, which for so many decades has showcased such blatant and sustained corruption that the very idea the event to which it is attached is free of the same was destroyed long ago.

The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) has also denounced the Enhanced Games. But it, too, is not free from discredit, when a lot of frustrated clean athletes will tell you that they believe Wada is run not in their interests, but in the interests of the states to which its IOC funders may wish to cosy up. If international bodies like these are running clean sport’s last stand, then the horse may not just have bolted – but reached 50mph, collapsed just past the winning post, and tested positive for EPO in the autopsy.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Enhanced Games, WADA, some rich guys who want to make some more money, Netflix docuseries/reality TV etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-enhanced-games-sporting-event-drugs-tv-sport

Seen a lot of hand-wringing over this but I'll be watching, could be some sensational viewing. They could get the doctors doing interviews before the race explaining what kind of *** they have the athletes on. Hoping they do a road race personally, maybe old Black-Socks can collab with Ferarri again, 65% Hermatocrit!

 

[Rob5091]

Contaminated kitchen?! Ok, a new one for the excuses thread maybe?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-golds-after-testing-positive-for-banned-drug
Twenty-three Chinese swimmers tested positive for the banned drug TMZ months before the Tokyo Olympics in 2021, it has emerged. However, they were cleared to compete at the Games after the World Anti-Doping Agency accepted an explanation from the Chinese authorities that the kitchen at their hotel was contaminated.

The story, which has only come to light following a joint investigation by the German TV channel ARD and the New York Times, has led to widespread criticism of Wada from senior figures in anti-doping, with one calling the case “shocking” and another a “devastating stab in the back to clean athletes”.

TMZ or trimetazidine as it's known was also in the 15 year old Russian figure skater at the Olympics in Beijing.
more at https://www.nbcnews.com/news/olympics/trimetazidine-drug-works-banned-olympics-rcna15945