Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2023 Stage 8: Terni – Fossombrone 207 km

[Salvarani]

TGH saw Remco was toast and accelerated. Thomas doing the same shortly afterwards.

Remco just didnt have the legs today. He would of course have followed Roglic if he could. Been able to follow the others if he could. Anyone saying anything else is just trying to cope with result today.

He will probably recover and do well tomorrow. Probably gain back time and take pink.

It is still a long way to go and should be an entertaining race going forward.

 

[Oldermanish]

Wait ... Giro not over?

How much faster do you think Rogla would have climbed with a more even pace?

You mean how much faster could he climb if he climbed faster? That much faster, I guess......?

 

[Netserk]

Instead of asking questions the whole time, just say what your point is and what you mean. It’s easier to discuss.

If so, why did you start with a question?

 

[Volderke]

Lol. On the broadcast I was watching they didn’t show his group much because, you know, they were behind. But from what I saw (and heard from broadcasters), he slotted in behind Almeida for the final bit up the climb and then Caruso led down the descent, and he finished a few behind in the finale, and he DEFINITELY never attacked, unlike Roglic, so maybe we did watch a different race.

I watched a race that didn’t prove Remco was a wheel sucker or Roglic a swaggering hero, but one that showed simplified narratives are misguided and both do what it takes to win.

I saw Remco losing contact with Caruso and Almeida. There was a gap that Remco (with help of others) closed just before the finish. If Remco was wheelsucking, he didn't read the memo on how that's done.

 

[Berniece]

If so, why did you start with a question?

Because I’m typing on a phone and I wanted to end with a period instead of question mark. It was a statement instead of a question. My bad.

 

[OlavEH]

Today's stage was yet another argument why tough medium mountain stages are better than these low gradient MTFs in the first 10-12 days of a GT. Hope that RCS has the same opinion for future versions of the Giro.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Lol. On the broadcast I was watching they didn’t show his group much because, you know, they were behind. But from what I saw (and heard from broadcasters), he slotted in behind Almeida for the final bit up the climb and then Caruso led down the descent, and he finished a few behind in the finale, and he DEFINITELY never attacked, unlike Roglic, so maybe we did watch a different race.

I watched a race that didn’t prove Remco was a wheel sucker or Roglic a swaggering hero, but one that showed simplified narratives are misguided and both do what it takes to win.

He was dropped by Caruso and an UAE rider on the descent, dunno if it was Vine or Almeida, and he had to pace his group back to them on the final strech of flat road, you could clearly see it from the heli. He also tried to close the gap to Rogla himself, so he definitively did not sit on the wheel

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

He was dropped by Caruso and an UAE rider on the descent, dunno if it was Vine or Almeida, and he had to pace his group back to them on the final strech of flat road, you could clearly see it from the heli. He also tried to close the gap to Rogla himself, so he definitively did not sit on the wheel

Fair enough. I haven’t rewatched it but there are enough of you saying it that I believe you. That wasn’t really the point though. It was more so that many were so quick to accuse Roglic of being a wheelsucker during Catalonia when it tactically was the correct thing to do, but evidence to the contrary as in today is swept aside.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Lol. On the broadcast I was watching they didn’t show his group much because, you know, they were behind. But from what I saw (and heard from broadcasters), he slotted in behind Almeida for the final bit up the climb and then Caruso led down the descent, and he finished a few behind in the finale, and he DEFINITELY never attacked, unlike Roglic, so maybe we did watch a different race.

I watched a race that didn’t prove Remco was a wheel sucker or Roglic a swaggering hero, but one that showed simplified narratives are misguided and both do what it takes to win.

Evenepoel did most of the work in his group, Roglic did most of the work in his group. Last km Ineos took over. Evenepoel did not get help on the flat until the final hundreds of meters. So quite comparable. If there was a difference, it would have been negligible.

Fair enough. I haven’t rewatched it but there are enough of you saying it that I believe you.

This is not a good argument. If you are sure of what you are saying, stick to it and make your case. People on this forum thinking they are correct because they outnumber others, is one of the things wrong on this forum.

 

[Riek s]

Lol. On the broadcast I was watching they didn’t show his group much because, you know, they were behind. But from what I saw (and heard from broadcasters), he slotted in behind Almeida for the final bit up the climb and then Caruso led down the descent, and he finished a few behind in the finale, and he DEFINITELY never attacked, unlike Roglic, so maybe we did watch a different race.

I watched a race that didn’t prove Remco was a wheel sucker or Roglic a swaggering hero, but one that showed simplified narratives are misguided and both do what it takes to win.

he didn't slot in behind almeida, he was passed by that group. In the descend Remco went to the front of the group to pull. Caruso went to the front and dropped Remco in the descend. Remco kept riding. In all the shots, it was remco in the lead. Even on the finish line when roglic crossed, you could see remco riding in that groupon the front in the background. It was only at the finish that the others went before him.

Him saying he would have followed Roglic by pacing better , is just puffing his chest and blowing hot air.
What i can believe is that if paced better he wouldn't have cooked himself at the top. But he did follow the correct riding style for the rest of the Giro... don't follow the initial jump and ride your pace and keep as close as possible.
If you are equally on the climbs, you will hold on a few meters.
if you are better you can keep that pace and attack at the end while avoiding the attack/attack during the climb,
if you are worse (like today) it doesn't matter what you do

Roglic was very good, but he also did fall off at the end of the climb, so he probably went a bit to early as well (or he was pushing himself to much to distance Remco who was not that far behind. I' guessing that last acceleration that cooked Remco , semi cooked Roglic)

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Evenepoel did most of the work in his group, Roglic did most of the work in his group. Last km Ineos took over. Evenepoel did not get help on the flat until the final hundreds of meters. So quite comparable. If there was a difference, it would have been negligible.


This is not a good argument. If you are sure of what you are saying, stick to it and make your case. People on this forum thinking they are correct because they outnumber others, is one of the things wrong on this forum.

I was cooking during the stage and hadn’t rewatched it so, given the weight of multiple accounts vs my known unreliable one, it is reasonable to accept the multiple accounts.

Out of curiosity, I rewatched the end and I saw that actually you all are right, Remco was unable to hold the wheel on multiple occasions. Were the roles reversed, I am sure that Roglic would have held the wheel and been accused of being a wheelsucker, but I agree that Remco repeatedly was on the front, just progressively farther back.

I also saw that Ineos took over at 500m to go, not 1km.

I am curious, were you one who maligned Roglic as a wheelsucker, and how does this change your view? For many of us Roglic fans, while we didn’t love the conservative strategy visually, it seemed the correct course, and we also argued that when he is behind, he attacks and has no fear of putting his nose in the wind. Today, he did so. Thoughts?

 

[Lequack]

Almeida looks like he is in disguise with a fake mustache

A new deal formed

 

[RedheadDane]

Almeida looks like he is in disguise with a fake mustache

Maybe he made a "grow his moustache until he gets a stage win" bet.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Fair enough. I haven’t rewatched it but there are enough of you saying it that I believe you. That wasn’t really the point though. It was more so that many were so quick to accuse Roglic of being a wheelsucker during Catalonia when it tactically was the correct thing to do, but evidence to the contrary as in today is swept aside.

Personally, I didn't call Roglic a wheelsucker during Catalunya (i wasn't even on the forum back then), but i undestand what you mean, his job is to win and sometimes a defensive tactic is just better suited to do the job. Rogla has a, somewhat, bad reputation for his riding stile, when in fact he has attacked many times in the past. Part of it comes from the fact that, given is punch and TT ability he doesn't really need to attack from far out, but he put up some grate shows in the past, like when he won at Lagos de Covadonga

 

[Netserk]

He’s never afraid to attack when he needs to. He just rarely needs to do so when he is strong.

 

[Salvarani]

Maybe he made a "grow his moustache until he gets a stage win" bet.

Cort better be afraid!

 

[search]

Sprintcycling had a photographer close to the top of the climb (currently page 2)

Sprint Cycling Agency

Sprint Cycling Agency -

www.sprintcyclingagency.com

according to that, this was the order of the favourite's group:

Roglic
TGH
Thomas
Almeida
Evenepoel/Caruso
Carthy
Dunbar
Haig/Sivakov/Vine
Leknessund/Vlasov
Kämna/Buitrago
Arensman/de Plus
Kuss
Uran/APP/Fortunato/Pozzovivo
Pinot
Formolo
Rubio
Barta

 

[rokovski]

Any statement from Remco how good he is and how nervous Roglic is?

 

[Gargamel35]

Any statement from Remco how good he is and how nervous Roglic is?

Yeah, he said, he could be with Roglič on the top, if he would keep his own pace. Funny fella.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Any statement from Remco how good he is and how nervous Roglic is?

From Sporza

"It was not my best day", Remco Evenepoel confessed to the team bus. "Otherwise I could have followed Primoz Roglic ."

"It looked like he was feeling good. He doesn't just put his team in front and he wanted to put everyone under pressure. That worked out well."

Tao Geoghegan Hart and Geraint Thomas were able to follow after they found their second breath. "I would have done better like Thomas: up at my own pace."

"I jumped to Roglic's wheel, but 400 meters from the top it got steeper and my legs were completely full."

"It's another lesson I learn from an experienced rider. A bit unfortunate, a bit stupid maybe."

"I had the legs to follow, but if I misuse them, it's extra unfortunate."

"Fortunately I still have half a minute and hopefully tomorrow I will take seconds or a minute."

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Any statement from Remco how good he is and how nervous Roglic is?

Roglic was nervously looking for something at the front of the main group, he almost couldn't sit on his saddle. OTOH Remco calm as always and ready to end the race (again) tomorrow.

 

[groogster]

Yeah 5+ km is a few meters.... DUH

I didn’t mention few meters but final meters of the last climb, your perception of what I said it’s far from what I posted.
Cappuccini climb has an extension of 2.8km and Roglic attacked roughly halfway so more or less 1.4km from the top.

 

[Nick2413]

So there were a few k of relatively flat riding at the end today and Remco didn’t look to take any time on Roglic despite both leading their respective groups most of the way. Is that an accurate assessment? I remember a lot of talk a couple weeks back about Remco being able to easily bridge 5-10 seconds on the flat to any rider in the peloton after a climb like this…

 

[Riek s]

I am curious, were you one who maligned Roglic as a wheelsucker, and how does this change your view? For many of us Roglic fans, while we didn’t love the conservative strategy visually, it seemed the correct course, and we also argued that when he is behind, he attacks and has no fear of putting his nose in the wind. Today, he did so. Thoughts?

One doesn't rule out the other right?
Roglic has a very distinct pattern: when he is ahead he waits and waits, if he is behind he gambles. Personally i think he lost the tour and maybe a giro due to being too conservative when he is ahead.
And i believe Remco would have had a bigger chance of winning the Giro if roglic would been in pink (e.g. remove the 2 starting TTs). (Just because the way Roglic calculates when he is ahead)

Also there is also nothing wrong with the term wheelsucker either, its the art of profitting from others. (which by design is tactics!) (Just like the tactic today of Ineos, who preferred to tire out 2 competitors instead of helping 1 for negliable gains)

So there were a few k of relatively flat riding at the end today and Remco didn’t look to take any time on Roglic despite both leading their respective groups most of the way. Is that an accurate assessment? I remember a lot of talk a couple weeks back about Remco being able to easily bridge 5-10 seconds on the flat to any rider in the peloton after a climb like this…

I'm assuming you are referring to LBL in regards to the possibilities that could happen with Pogacar? If that is the case, you should also recall that those statements were made in the assumption he didn't blow up on the climb (e.g if he was dropped by explosive attack, not when he was dropped because not good enough).

 

[IndianCyclist]

Unfortunately after a climb there is a downhill for a number of kms at which as seen today he is not good as others