giro doping thread

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re:

what where the wattages from the mountain itt? I'm pretty sure they were very low. so wonder how people think there is doping involved

Only Foliforov was weird as his climbing time was 6,2w/kg (40 seocnds faster than chaves and 43 than kruijswijk).
Chaves/K were at 6 w/kg

rest below
Other mt stages we have Kruijswijk power files and he has never gone beyond 5,9 w/kg on 30+ efforts

 

[BullsFan22]

No Russian win today. No doping?

 

[kwikki]

Nibbles seems to have lost his engine.

 

[StryderHells]

No Russian win today. No doping?

Still plenty of doping going on but just in a less overt way

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Gatlin is a joke because it's so mind-numblingly obvious he's on some extra good juice, but Valverde is equally a disgrace. Both talented, but both are risking their lives incredibly, and probably more than their younger peers with their stack.

How so?

Juicing to the levels they are at their age to get to the same level as their younger peers is not good for one's body, specifically the heart. Both will probably drop dead before they turn 60.

 

[jmdirt]

Another funny thing is that Bettini, the poster boys for how well doping can work, is one of the vocal critics.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Just for fun let's say that VN is trying to ride cleaner (I know he rides for Vino and Astana so that's a stretch), in which case he is having a solid GdI, But the headlines, and discussions are about his collapse.. The media and the fans don't want clean cycling, they want racers to win.

I've got an alternative explanation, just as speculative as yours.

We know that anti-doping efforts change and, somehow*, most cyclists are aware of those changes. So, doping regiments evolve as well. To me, it looks like Nibali's new program isn't as effective as the programs of the competition. That would also explain the extended "medical" tests Nibali has announced to "explain" his performance: They' ll probably want to tune their program.

There are a couple of other names in the Giro who are under performing as well, while some are doing better than expected. Maybe the true key to winning this Giro is paying the right doctor.

* Exactly how is besides the point, but probably involves that almost no party benefits from scandals.

Really, the core is that if you don't dope, you better find a new job.

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Just for fun let's say that VN is trying to ride cleaner (I know he rides for Vino and Astana so that's a stretch), in which case he is having a solid GdI, But the headlines, and discussions are about his collapse.. The media and the fans don't want clean cycling, they want racers to win.

Boy ain't that the truth. Nibs would have taken less flak for being busted for a positive. (IMO he just made a bad decision on the Dolomite Queen Stage and fried himself. That was a hard, hard stage and to get hung out there for so long must have been brutal. I'm sure he knew what was coming but could neither catch up to the lead chase group nor commit to falling back to the maglia rosa group)

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

Another funny thing is that Bettini, the poster boys for how well doping can work, is one of the vocal critics.

When did Bettini ever test positive?

 

[WillemS]

Re: Re:

Just for fun let's say that VN is trying to ride cleaner (I know he rides for Vino and Astana so that's a stretch), in which case he is having a solid GdI, But the headlines, and discussions are about his collapse.. The media and the fans don't want clean cycling, they want racers to win.

I've got an alternative explanation, just as speculative as yours.

We know that anti-doping efforts change and, somehow*, most cyclists are aware of those changes. So, doping regiments evolve as well. To me, it looks like Nibali's new program isn't as effective as the programs of the competition. That would also explain the extended "medical" tests Nibali has announced to "explain" his performance: They' ll probably want to tune their program.

There are a couple of other names in the Giro who are under performing as well, while some are doing better than expected. Maybe the true key to winning this Giro is paying the right doctor.

* Exactly how is besides the point, but probably involves that almost no party benefits from scandals.

Really, the core is that if you don't dope, you better find a new job.

I don't think I disagree with you, especially if we're talking about top-GC contenders.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Another funny thing is that Bettini, the poster boys for how well doping can work, is one of the vocal critics.

When did Bettini ever test positive?

Don't embarrass yourself with this kind of argument.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Just for fun let's say that VN is trying to ride cleaner (I know he rides for Vino and Astana so that's a stretch), in which case he is having a solid GdI, But the headlines, and discussions are about his collapse.. The media and the fans don't want clean cycling, they want racers to win.

I've got an alternative explanation, just as speculative as yours.

We know that anti-doping efforts change and, somehow*, most cyclists are aware of those changes. So, doping regiments evolve as well. To me, it looks like Nibali's new program isn't as effective as the programs of the competition. That would also explain the extended "medical" tests Nibali has announced to "explain" his performance: They' ll probably want to tune their program.

There are a couple of other names in the Giro who are under performing as well, while some are doing better than expected. Maybe the true key to winning this Giro is paying the right doctor.

* Exactly how is besides the point, but probably involves that almost no party benefits from scandals.

You can't tell me that Astana/Vino aren't at the forefront of that arms race so your speculation has 1% chance of being reality while my speculation is double that!

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

Another funny thing is that Bettini, the poster boys for how well doping can work, is one of the vocal critics.

When did Bettini ever test positive?

Don't embarrass yourself with this kind of argument.

Well, he's got the core of why doping can not be eradicated squarely in his sights.

Seriously, Bettini never tested positive, so he's for all purposes a clean rider. And yes, we know this is likely a scam (about as likely as I'm Eddy Merckx hiding behind this nikc), but that's not that important.

 

[Franklin]

Juicing to the levels they are at their age to get to the same level as their younger peers is not good for one's body, specifically the heart. Both will probably drop dead before they turn 60.

Or next year 27 april 2017 the city of Stuttgart will be hit by a rainstorm.

Seriously, there's no way you can estimate when a future athlete dies. Freg, I lost two colleagues under 60 this year and they sure as hell did not dope. I'm not convinced if what a guy like Valverde does is more unhealthy than smoking. The fact he's so consistent could also mean it's very well monitored.

We are no physicans (and even they do not know!). Claims like these are utterly random.

 

[WillemS]

Re: Re:

You can't tell me that Astana/Vino aren't at the forefront of that arms race so your speculation has 1% chance of being reality while my speculation is double that!

At the forefront they may be, but that doesn't always guarantee success, mistakes happen and sometimes things don't work out as expected, especially if you're experimenting with cutting edge performance enhancing drugs. I think it would be a safe bet to state that some of the big names that have underperformed in the past, with excuses of illness and the like, did so because their new program, the combination of training effort and substance use, did not work out as well as they had expected.

 

[gmedina]

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

 

[DFA123]

Re:

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

Reminds me more of Wiggins. Armstrong, for all his faults, was pretty entertaining at times and rode with a fair bit of panache. Kruijswijk, like Wiggins, is just grinding the life out of the GC battle.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re: Re:

Just for fun let's say that VN is trying to ride cleaner (I know he rides for Vino and Astana so that's a stretch), in which case he is having a solid GdI, But the headlines, and discussions are about his collapse.. The media and the fans don't want clean cycling, they want racers to win.

I've got an alternative explanation, just as speculative as yours.

We know that anti-doping efforts change and, somehow*, most cyclists are aware of those changes. So, doping regiments evolve as well. To me, it looks like Nibali's new program isn't as effective as the programs of the competition. That would also explain the extended "medical" tests Nibali has announced to "explain" his performance: They' ll probably want to tune their program.

There are a couple of other names in the Giro who are under performing as well, while some are doing better than expected. Maybe the true key to winning this Giro is paying the right doctor.

* Exactly how is besides the point, but probably involves that almost no party benefits from scandals.

You can't tell me that Astana/Vino aren't at the forefront of that arms race so your speculation has 1% chance of being reality while my speculation is double that!

Seeing all the discussion elsewhere about Astana and budget cuts, maybe Vino's having to buy discount drugs for his guys, and it just doesn't work like the good stuff the high dollar teams can afford

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

Reminds me more of Wiggins. Armstrong, for all his faults, was pretty entertaining at times and rode with a fair bit of panache. Kruijswijk, like Wiggins, is just grinding the life out of the GC battle.

Physique-wise, there's a similarity between Lance and Steven. Probably the two of the broadest-shouldered otherwise-thin cyclists. Personality wise, night and day. At least as far as I can tell.

As racers, I think you're selling Wiggins a smidge short and overplaying Lance a bit. Lance ground the eff out of the race like no one before him, not even Indurain. He set the Sky template in that regard. He attacked only when he thought he absolutely had it. Wiggins was actually more prone to random attacks, like that time with Contador and Schleck were the Spanish announcer was pretty much the most shocked anyone's ever been about someone attacking. Or those times in Roubaix when went with nothing but hope.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

Reminds me more of Wiggins. Armstrong, for all his faults, was pretty entertaining at times and rode with a fair bit of panache. Kruijswijk, like Wiggins, is just grinding the life out of the GC battle.

Physique-wise, there's a similarity between Lance and Steven. Probably the two of the broadest-shouldered otherwise-thin cyclists. Personality wise, night and day. At least as far as I can tell.

As racers, I think you're selling Wiggins a smidge short and overplaying Lance a bit. Lance ground the eff out of the race like no one before him, not even Indurain. He set the Sky template in that regard. He attacked only when he thought he absolutely had it. Wiggins was actually more prone to random attacks, like that time with Contador and Schleck were the Spanish announcer was pretty much the most shocked anyone's ever been about someone attacking. Or those times in Roubaix when went with nothing but hope.

Fair point. Although I think physique wise he is still closer to (Tour winning) Wiggins than Armstrong. He's got the broad shoulders, but is nowhere near as muscular as Armstrong - I think he's about 8kg lighter. He looks like he's been on the Sky program of extreme weight loss, whilst simultaneously improving TT power.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Juicing to the levels they are at their age to get to the same level as their younger peers is not good for one's body, specifically the heart. Both will probably drop dead before they turn 60.

Or next year 27 april 2017 the city of Stuttgart will be hit by a rainstorm.

Seriously, there's no way you can estimate when a future athlete dies. Freg, I lost two colleagues under 60 this year and they sure as hell did not dope. I'm not convinced if what a guy like Valverde does is more unhealthy than smoking. The fact he's so consistent could also mean it's very well monitored.

We are no physicans (and even they do not know!). Claims like these are utterly random.

You're seriously implying taking substances that are completely unnatural to the body do not deter health and life expectancy? This isn't a chocolate bar or a bag of chips we're talking about, it's stuff that puts intense strain on the bodies organs. Of course it's shortening their life.

 

[DFA123]

Juicing to the levels they are at their age to get to the same level as their younger peers is not good for one's body, specifically the heart. Both will probably drop dead before they turn 60.

Or next year 27 april 2017 the city of Stuttgart will be hit by a rainstorm.

Seriously, there's no way you can estimate when a future athlete dies. Freg, I lost two colleagues under 60 this year and they sure as hell did not dope. I'm not convinced if what a guy like Valverde does is more unhealthy than smoking. The fact he's so consistent could also mean it's very well monitored.

We are no physicans (and even they do not know!). Claims like these are utterly random.

You're seriously implying taking substances that are completely unnatural to the body do not deter health and life expectancy? This isn't a chocolate bar or a bag of chips we're talking about, it's stuff that puts intense strain on the bodies organs. Of course it's shortening their life.

Do you have any evidence for this? Many doping products were developed by big pharma to extend quality and length of life. What long term damage do you think that taking a carefully controlled amount of EPO, Clen, HgH or testosterone would do?

Indeed, when used for recovery, some of these drugs probably signficantly reduce cellular damage compared with riders trying to complete GT's clean.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

Reminds me more of Wiggins. Armstrong, for all his faults, was pretty entertaining at times and rode with a fair bit of panache. Kruijswijk, like Wiggins, is just grinding the life out of the GC battle.

Physique-wise, there's a similarity between Lance and Steven. Probably the two of the broadest-shouldered otherwise-thin cyclists. Personality wise, night and day. At least as far as I can tell.

As racers, I think you're selling Wiggins a smidge short and overplaying Lance a bit. Lance ground the eff out of the race like no one before him, not even Indurain. He set the Sky template in that regard. He attacked only when he thought he absolutely had it. Wiggins was actually more prone to random attacks, like that time with Contador and Schleck were the Spanish announcer was pretty much the most shocked anyone's ever been about someone attacking. Or those times in Roubaix when went with nothing but hope.

I think Wiggins in 2012 was 100% Sky telling him what to do. By nature he seems to be a very impulsive person. Remember his 190km solo breakaway in the 2007 Tour?

As for Kruijswijk, I don't really blame him that it's been an attritional Giro with the various contenders gradually falling away. It's up to the others to put him under pressure. He's on the brink of the biggest win of his career by a large margin. He'd be crazy to jeopardise that by doing anything wild now.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

the more i look at Kruijswijk, the more he is reminding me of LA....

Reminds me more of Wiggins. Armstrong, for all his faults, was pretty entertaining at times and rode with a fair bit of panache. Kruijswijk, like Wiggins, is just grinding the life out of the GC battle.

Physique-wise, there's a similarity between Lance and Steven. Probably the two of the broadest-shouldered otherwise-thin cyclists. Personality wise, night and day. At least as far as I can tell.

As racers, I think you're selling Wiggins a smidge short and overplaying Lance a bit. Lance ground the eff out of the race like no one before him, not even Indurain. He set the Sky template in that regard. He attacked only when he thought he absolutely had it. Wiggins was actually more prone to random attacks, like that time with Contador and Schleck were the Spanish announcer was pretty much the most shocked anyone's ever been about someone attacking. Or those times in Roubaix when went with nothing but hope.

I think Wiggins in 2012 was 100% Sky telling him what to do. By nature he seems to be a very impulsive person. Remember his 190km solo breakaway in the 2007 Tour?

As for Kruijswijk, I don't really blame him that it's been an attritional Giro with the various contenders gradually falling away. It's up to the others to put him under pressure. He's on the brink of the biggest win of his career by a large margin. He'd be crazy to jeopardise that by doing anything wild now.

But at the end of the day, pro cyclists have a responsibility to entertain, or fans would stop watching and less revenue would be generated by the professional peloton. I don't blame him for doing what it took to win, but that said it's also difficult to like him for it.
That 2012 Tour would have been a hundred times more exciting if instead of using Froome to ride everyone off his wheel, Sky used Froome to attack Nibali's 2nd place and force him to work and use his energy if he wanted to keep his runner's up spot, with Wiggins just wheelsucking

 

[jilbiker]

Kruijswijk strength in this GT is way too good. He covers attacks with ease, he recovers from MTFs as if he did nothing. And its not that he has a strong team. It really sounds too good to be true. he can't be doing this on bread and water. And his has not done anything spectacular before.